Dr. Ivins: Anthrax suspect..... Scapegoat?

reply to post by Hal9000


Yes he certainly would have used a different sample. Someone of his obvious intelligence would try to cover his own tracks better, which in my mind furthers the idea that he was instructed to do this, and that they would cover up any inconsistencies for him.

I found this article interesting. It seems to contradict a lot of what we've heard so far. At the same time the author seems to be of the same "This is a conspiracy" mindset that we are. Anyhow, I feel it's definitely worth a look.

www.dailypress.com...

Despite the inevitable "anti-semitic" accusations, I think "What Really Happened" got it right:

History teaches us that since the dawn of the industrial age, all wars have been started with deceptions and manufactured provocations. Hitler staged a fake attack from Poland to start WW2. FDR maneuvered Japan into attacking the fleet at Pearl Harbor then presented the attack as a total surprise to the American people.

Hartford Courant news story identifying Dr. Philip Zack as the man caught entering the Anthrax storage area at Fort Detrick without authorization.

In this Feb. 2002 story, it is reported that Dr. Zack was caught on a security tape making an unauthorized entry into the Anthrax storage area: ANTHRAX COVER-UP? We know who the suspects are – so why no arrest?

FBI Closes in on Anthrax Terrorist: Prime Suspect is a Zionist. No wonder they were dragging their feet.

Salon’s story of the attempt to frame Dr. Ayaad Assaad, an Egyptian, for the Anthrax letters.

The time has come to face the unpleasant fact the citizens of the United States may well be the victims of the most incredible hoax in history regarding who is really behind the attacks on the World Trade Towers, the mailing of Anthrax letters to political and media leaders, and even to doubts that Daniel Pearl’s killers are actually who we have been told they are.

The fact is that evidence presented to the public as to who was behind 9-11 is largely faked while evidence that links the Israeli Spy/Phone Tapping Ring to the attacks has been classified by the US Government itself, as reported in Carl Cameron’s four part story on the spy ring on Fox News (subsequently erased from the mainstream media’s web sites.)

Reports that Israel was conducting spying activities in the United States may have a grain of truth.

Note the of second paragraph from the bottom of this story in which a US official admits that even if the Israelis were running a spy ring in the United States, the information would be kept from the American people.

The time has come to seriously consider that the American people are being tricked into a war. Such things are hardly new. Recently declassified documents prove beyond all doubt that Pearl Harbor was not only NOT a surprise, but was the desired result of an 8 step ONI plan written by Arthur H. McCollum and implemented by Franklin Delano Roosevelt, in order to trick the people of the United States into a war against Hitler, via the back door of Japan.

And according to Victor Ostrovsky, a former Mossad agent, the bombing of Libya during the Reagan administration was the result of a trick played by the Mossad in which a radio transmitter was smuggled into Tripoli and used to create fake radio messages for the US to intercept. The motto of the Mossad: “By way of deception, thou shalt do war.”

www.whatreallyhappened.com...
(visit the link for the full news article)

According to released classified documents, we (the UK) apparently knew of the plan to attack Pearl Harbor, and we didn't say anything so you did get dragged into WW2.

What I meant about his death being like that of Dr. David Kelly, was the way it happened and when. He gets accused of sending the anthrax, then mysteriously dies before he can talk. With Dr. David Kelly, he's about to talk about WMD (or lack thereof) in Iraq, when he dies.

Well the news is out on the net. You can fool yourselves if you like but, I don't anymore.

We were played.

infinityoreilly

I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment and have had to read quickly through the pages of this thread, so I apologize if this has been brought up already.

I've just been informed that Dr. Ivins' alleged suicide was by acetaminophen poisoning. The second that it was said, I immediately felt that something was wrong with the story. As a biochemical researcher, he would certainly have had extensive knowledge of the lethality of numerous substances. Acetaminophen (Tylenol or Paracetamol) is considered one of the least effective courses to take if one wishes to "do themselves in". An effective dosage is quite high--taking anything less than the truly lethal dose is likely to leave one in a state of severe pain. Acetaminophen poisoning is notorious for inducing organ failure, of which the duration is long before death sets in. The 10g-20g range is considered potentially lethal; reaching this level requires consumption of a substantial number of pills (20-40 Extra-Strength Tylenol or regular 500mg Paracetamol). According to www.rxlist.com, "In adults and adolescents, hepatic toxicity may occur following ingestion of greater than 7.5 to 10g over a period of 8 hours or less. Fatalities are infrequent (less than 3% to 4% of untreated cases) with overdoses less than 15g." Death from acetaminophen poisoning is not immediate or even rapid, but rather drawn out in relation to the more effective suicide methods. A scientist whose career was based on the study of chemical substances would certainly be aware of more lethal choices. Why would he choose a far from fail-proof poison?

And then, of course, we have the oft-repeated question of why a mentally unstable man was allowed to work in a high-security bioweapons laboratory. Ah, just another puzzle piece that doesn't fit.

Just my two cents. I have a few rink dink degrees in science, I also have a AS in Medical Laboratory Technology. For about a year I worked in a hospital microbiology lab. In terms of comparison of knowledge between what I know and what Ivins knew would have been a HUGE gap. What I do know is that it is very easy to trace strains of particular bacteria genetically. This is basic knowledge for anyone working in labs. This is done all the time when trying to trace outbreaks in hospitals. If I know this, of course Ivins knew it. So, a guy with paranoid thoughts is going to grow up some easily identifiable bacteria, that could be traced straight to his lab, and send it through the mail? Are you kidding me? If he wanted to be caught this is exactly how he should have done it.

Let's say he was the mad scientist, and he did want to try doing this. The thing to do would be to set up a lab somewhere else-- in a garage, start growing anthrax, hopefully from another source. This wouldn't be hard for someone with his level of knowledge. The trick would be to get an outside source for anthrax, which might not be so hard if you are scientist working in a high level lab. For one thing, there are companies that make cultures for quality control standards--I'm guessing they sell anthrax to high level labs, so not only would the company have that strain, but any high level lab that requested it as a standard, i.e., for calibrating equipment. This would make it hard to trace. There are natural sources too. Anthrax is hardy stuff that is able to "hibernate."

I don't know if this could be done--or done easily, but he might have been able to take the government lab's anthrax and repeatedly culture it until it had changed enough to not be identifiable any more and used it as a source.

Anyway, the way he supposedly did it would be the last way I can think of that a person would do it.

Note to FBI: my garage will be open tomorrow. There is no lab.

Played like grand piano by the best pianist there is. Our own fears and desires were manipulated and channeled to justify the unjustifiable, invade and occupy countries with rich resources, then exploit the situation with propaganda long enough to ripp them off for 6 or 7 years. Now who made all the money?

reply to post by paperplanes


Actually if he did kill himself, which I doubt, but if he did kill himself because he was being implicated in this whole mess, and wasn't actually on anti-psychotics, etc maybe he would choose an easy to access over the counter med. If they killed him while maintaining the man was insane, wouldn't they be sure to kill him by having him overdose on some type of prescription psychiatric drug.

Great post, thanks.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


It's completely possible that some or all of that narrative is correct... but at the same time it is speculation with some resources to back it up. Which is the same thing I and our fellow ATS members are doing here, and it is heading in a somewhat different direction. So in the end we will never know, but we can use the information we have available and piece together whatever is possible with some creative and critical thinking. Either way thank you for your input, it certainly is some food for thought. I will be contemplating it further.

reply to post by Lookingup


We can tell through his distinguished career that the man wasn't stupid, nor was he any type of simpleton. Simply mailing out the anthrax lying around his lab will never seem very likely. Thanks for your post.

reply to post by Osiris1953


I didn't specifically follow this case with the man who is now supposedly at the center of this, I only followed the the sensationalism, not because I'm someone who believes the hype, but because I watch and listen to what people say to see their reactions to the news. I say anything is possible when it comes to these things, because it put the Federal system, being the United States Postal Service, under easier means to observe and check, bypassing many Federal laws that are supposed to protect us as citizens from "illegal search and seizure" through now legal means if there is a "suspicion" of something happening, IE, "suspicion of Anthrax" in the mail.

Just for an odd tidbit of information, and I do not remember the source where I found this, but did you know that the Internet falls under the Federal jurisdicition of the United States Postal Service, meaning here of course, that because of the "Anthrax scare" this enables not only your private mail to be monitored, but your e-mails and online acitivities to monitored this way?

Now there's food for thought. The Post Office has jurisdiction over your online acitivities. It's an electronic means of communication, like a letter, an e-mail has to pass through a "digital letter carriers" hands via the servers and fiber-optic cables.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by Osiris1953

 

Just for an odd tidbit of information, and I do not remember the source where I found this, but did you know that the Internet falls under the Federal jurisdicition of the United States Postal Service, meaning here of course, that because of the "Anthrax scare" this enables not only your private mail to be monitored, but your e-mails and online acitivities to monitored this way?

[edit on 10-8-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Now that is friggin scary. As you have mentioned it certainly is a decent motive for them to get the anthrax in the mail to begin with. At the same time I've never seen the USPS as a particularly competent organization. Just the same, it just furthers the thought that the anthrax attacks were all part and parcel to the 9/11 attacks.

As I have said before I think Dr. Ivins is taking the fall because they won't bring us Osama.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


BTW, thank you for posting. It is most appreciated. Hopefully chat will be back up soon, and we can all partake in some goofiness once again.

reply to post by Osiris1953


Not a problem about posting on your thread, I always appreciate the effort to stretch legs on a different area.

Here's even more scary news for those who don't know about it.

Google's "Street View" Brings World To Grand Rapid's Door

I just submitted this to the Breaking Alternative News Forum.

I also submitted your thread to DIGG, for you, which will get people outside of ATS taking a look at it.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Now there's food for thought. The Post Office has jurisdiction over your online acitivities. It's an electronic means of communication, like a letter, an e-mail has to pass through a "digital letter carriers" hands via the servers and fiber-optic cables.

I haven't heard that, but won't say that it's not true. I do know that electronic surveillance of e-mail was allowed through the Patriot Act, but I believe our right to privacy has been re-instated due to recent passing of the FISA amendment. I think online activity is covered as well, but I'm not sure.

Still, that is an interesting viewpoint.

[edit on 8/11/2008 by Hal9000]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Thanks for submitting it to DIGG... This is probably the most important thread that I have personally started. I'll have to check out the link you provided here shortly. Thanks Leo.

Anyone else have something to add/comment on? I'd be greatly appreciated.

One last call. Anyone have anything to add... I think it is of some importance to keep this thread going a bit longer. If at all possible that is.

It's one of the stranger things that seems to happen in this site. This is definitely a conspiracy worth investigating in here, but unfortunately it doesn't get the interest it's certainly entitled to. Perhaps it's because it doesn't have anything mildly razzmatazz in it like aliens or reptilians in it.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
It's one of the stranger things that seems to happen in this site. This is definitely a conspiracy worth investigating in here, but unfortunately it doesn't get the interest it's certainly entitled to. Perhaps it's because it doesn't have anything mildly razzmatazz in it like aliens or reptilians in it.

I couldn't find a newer thread on Ivins, so if nobody minds if I drag up an old thread, I would like to continue the Ivins investigation. If I should start a new one, please let me know.

Bruce Ivins was a gentle, caring man. That is the opinion of more than 250 friends that attended his funeral. He played piano for 28 years at St. John's the Evangelist Roman Catholic Church, and was known to volunteer to clean up after services. He also volunteered much of his time for the Red Cross. He mentored student and graduate scientists at both the University of Cincinnati where he got his degrees, and at Fort Detrick. Some mourners wept when speakers at the service talked about Ivins' many hobbies, including juggling, target shooting, practical jokes, cartoons and the weather. Colleagues recalled a talented scientist with a probing mind who loved to debate a wide variety of subjects. His neighbors knew Bruce as an avid grass recycler, who encouraged them to also recycle grass clippings.

Gerry Andrews, who worked with Ivins at Fort Detrick for nine years and was the bacteriology division's chief from 2000 to 2003, said that it was rare for Ivins to join the other researchers after work for beer and that Ivins drank so little he was kidded about being a teetotaler. W. Russell Byrne, an infectious disease specialist who worked with Ivins in the bacteriology division at Fort Detrick until Byrne's 2000 retirement from the Army, has kept up with his former colleagues. Byrne said he remembers offering Ivins a beer one night several years ago when Ivins made a rare appearance at a party at Bushwaller's, an Irish pub in the heart of Frederick where their crowd of scientists sometimes gathered. "He declined," Byrne recalled. "He said he had a family history of alcoholism."

The question of murder aside for a moment, what made Ivins kill himself? The overwhelming cause of suicide is mental illness, especially depression. Dr. Ivins was, and had been suffering from depression for virtually his entire life. A prime candidate, for sure. And there was a serious alcohol addiction, as well. Both of these factors were readily known to him and freely admitted to. But to his credit, Dr. Ivins was able to control these debilitative influences through treatment and abstinence. Until November, 2007.

That is when the FBI started its campaign of pressure against Ivins. They jerked his family out of his own house and locked everyone down in separate locations for a 24 hour search of his house and vehicles. During this lock down, his daughter Amanda complained to Ivins' attorney Paul Kemp that the FBI agents showed her autopsy photos of the anthrax victims and pressured her to rat out her father. Ivins' son, Andy, claimed that agents tried to bribe him with the $2.5 million reward, claiming that he could buy a nice sports car with the money, if he would provide evidence against his dad. The search turned up nothing, absolutely nothing. It simply resulted in terrifying Ivins family.

But that was just the beginning. Ivins told friends that FBI agents approached him in a shopping mall and told him, "You killed a bunch of people". They then turned to his wife and asked, "Do you know he killed people?" A Hatfill type close surveillance then proceeded to overshadow Ivins' entire life. And that is when his depression and alcoholism started to take over his life also. There is a word for what caused Dr. Ivins' death. It is called "bullycide", and it applies to adults as well as school age children.