According to released classified documents, we (the UK) apparently knew of the plan to attack Pearl Harbor, and we didn't say anything so you did get dragged into WW2.

What I meant about his death being like that of Dr. David Kelly, was the way it happened and when. He gets accused of sending the anthrax, then mysteriously dies before he can talk. With Dr. David Kelly, he's about to talk about WMD (or lack thereof) in Iraq, when he dies.

Well the news is out on the net. You can fool yourselves if you like but, I don't anymore.

We were played.

infinityoreilly

I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment and have had to read quickly through the pages of this thread, so I apologize if this has been brought up already.

I've just been informed that Dr. Ivins' alleged suicide was by acetaminophen poisoning. The second that it was said, I immediately felt that something was wrong with the story. As a biochemical researcher, he would certainly have had extensive knowledge of the lethality of numerous substances. Acetaminophen (Tylenol or Paracetamol) is considered one of the least effective courses to take if one wishes to "do themselves in". An effective dosage is quite high--taking anything less than the truly lethal dose is likely to leave one in a state of severe pain. Acetaminophen poisoning is notorious for inducing organ failure, of which the duration is long before death sets in. The 10g-20g range is considered potentially lethal; reaching this level requires consumption of a substantial number of pills (20-40 Extra-Strength Tylenol or regular 500mg Paracetamol). According to www.rxlist.com, "In adults and adolescents, hepatic toxicity may occur following ingestion of greater than 7.5 to 10g over a period of 8 hours or less. Fatalities are infrequent (less than 3% to 4% of untreated cases) with overdoses less than 15g." Death from acetaminophen poisoning is not immediate or even rapid, but rather drawn out in relation to the more effective suicide methods. A scientist whose career was based on the study of chemical substances would certainly be aware of more lethal choices. Why would he choose a far from fail-proof poison?

And then, of course, we have the oft-repeated question of why a mentally unstable man was allowed to work in a high-security bioweapons laboratory. Ah, just another puzzle piece that doesn't fit.

Just my two cents. I have a few rink dink degrees in science, I also have a AS in Medical Laboratory Technology. For about a year I worked in a hospital microbiology lab. In terms of comparison of knowledge between what I know and what Ivins knew would have been a HUGE gap. What I do know is that it is very easy to trace strains of particular bacteria genetically. This is basic knowledge for anyone working in labs. This is done all the time when trying to trace outbreaks in hospitals. If I know this, of course Ivins knew it. So, a guy with paranoid thoughts is going to grow up some easily identifiable bacteria, that could be traced straight to his lab, and send it through the mail? Are you kidding me? If he wanted to be caught this is exactly how he should have done it.

Let's say he was the mad scientist, and he did want to try doing this. The thing to do would be to set up a lab somewhere else-- in a garage, start growing anthrax, hopefully from another source. This wouldn't be hard for someone with his level of knowledge. The trick would be to get an outside source for anthrax, which might not be so hard if you are scientist working in a high level lab. For one thing, there are companies that make cultures for quality control standards--I'm guessing they sell anthrax to high level labs, so not only would the company have that strain, but any high level lab that requested it as a standard, i.e., for calibrating equipment. This would make it hard to trace. There are natural sources too. Anthrax is hardy stuff that is able to "hibernate."

I don't know if this could be done--or done easily, but he might have been able to take the government lab's anthrax and repeatedly culture it until it had changed enough to not be identifiable any more and used it as a source.

Anyway, the way he supposedly did it would be the last way I can think of that a person would do it.

Note to FBI: my garage will be open tomorrow. There is no lab.

Played like grand piano by the best pianist there is. Our own fears and desires were manipulated and channeled to justify the unjustifiable, invade and occupy countries with rich resources, then exploit the situation with propaganda long enough to ripp them off for 6 or 7 years. Now who made all the money?

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Now there's food for thought. The Post Office has jurisdiction over your online acitivities. It's an electronic means of communication, like a letter, an e-mail has to pass through a "digital letter carriers" hands via the servers and fiber-optic cables.

I haven't heard that, but won't say that it's not true. I do know that electronic surveillance of e-mail was allowed through the Patriot Act, but I believe our right to privacy has been re-instated due to recent passing of the FISA amendment. I think online activity is covered as well, but I'm not sure.

Still, that is an interesting viewpoint.

[edit on 8/11/2008 by Hal9000]

Anyone else have something to add/comment on? I'd be greatly appreciated.

One last call. Anyone have anything to add... I think it is of some importance to keep this thread going a bit longer. If at all possible that is.

It's one of the stranger things that seems to happen in this site. This is definitely a conspiracy worth investigating in here, but unfortunately it doesn't get the interest it's certainly entitled to. Perhaps it's because it doesn't have anything mildly razzmatazz in it like aliens or reptilians in it.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
It's one of the stranger things that seems to happen in this site. This is definitely a conspiracy worth investigating in here, but unfortunately it doesn't get the interest it's certainly entitled to. Perhaps it's because it doesn't have anything mildly razzmatazz in it like aliens or reptilians in it.

I couldn't find a newer thread on Ivins, so if nobody minds if I drag up an old thread, I would like to continue the Ivins investigation. If I should start a new one, please let me know.

Bruce Ivins was a gentle, caring man. That is the opinion of more than 250 friends that attended his funeral. He played piano for 28 years at St. John's the Evangelist Roman Catholic Church, and was known to volunteer to clean up after services. He also volunteered much of his time for the Red Cross. He mentored student and graduate scientists at both the University of Cincinnati where he got his degrees, and at Fort Detrick. Some mourners wept when speakers at the service talked about Ivins' many hobbies, including juggling, target shooting, practical jokes, cartoons and the weather. Colleagues recalled a talented scientist with a probing mind who loved to debate a wide variety of subjects. His neighbors knew Bruce as an avid grass recycler, who encouraged them to also recycle grass clippings.

Gerry Andrews, who worked with Ivins at Fort Detrick for nine years and was the bacteriology division's chief from 2000 to 2003, said that it was rare for Ivins to join the other researchers after work for beer and that Ivins drank so little he was kidded about being a teetotaler. W. Russell Byrne, an infectious disease specialist who worked with Ivins in the bacteriology division at Fort Detrick until Byrne's 2000 retirement from the Army, has kept up with his former colleagues. Byrne said he remembers offering Ivins a beer one night several years ago when Ivins made a rare appearance at a party at Bushwaller's, an Irish pub in the heart of Frederick where their crowd of scientists sometimes gathered. "He declined," Byrne recalled. "He said he had a family history of alcoholism."

The question of murder aside for a moment, what made Ivins kill himself? The overwhelming cause of suicide is mental illness, especially depression. Dr. Ivins was, and had been suffering from depression for virtually his entire life. A prime candidate, for sure. And there was a serious alcohol addiction, as well. Both of these factors were readily known to him and freely admitted to. But to his credit, Dr. Ivins was able to control these debilitative influences through treatment and abstinence. Until November, 2007.

That is when the FBI started its campaign of pressure against Ivins. They jerked his family out of his own house and locked everyone down in separate locations for a 24 hour search of his house and vehicles. During this lock down, his daughter Amanda complained to Ivins' attorney Paul Kemp that the FBI agents showed her autopsy photos of the anthrax victims and pressured her to rat out her father. Ivins' son, Andy, claimed that agents tried to bribe him with the $2.5 million reward, claiming that he could buy a nice sports car with the money, if he would provide evidence against his dad. The search turned up nothing, absolutely nothing. It simply resulted in terrifying Ivins family.

But that was just the beginning. Ivins told friends that FBI agents approached him in a shopping mall and told him, "You killed a bunch of people". They then turned to his wife and asked, "Do you know he killed people?" A Hatfill type close surveillance then proceeded to overshadow Ivins' entire life. And that is when his depression and alcoholism started to take over his life also. There is a word for what caused Dr. Ivins' death. It is called "bullycide", and it applies to adults as well as school age children.