Morality doesn't need religion

There seems to be a trend among religious people that you must have religion to have morality. In other word, no religion = no morality.

This is blatantly false. Moral values are common sense. Morality has to do with the interactions of people.

Morality has to do with survival. For example, if you don't want to get killed, then don't kill others.

The Golden Rule is easy to come up with observations.

There are studies that show that we are born moral.

So, please stop asserting that we must have religion to have moral values.

reply to post by Deaf Alien

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For what it's worth, I concur.

Morality is a construct of social order, its about the contract governing behavior among and within cultures and societies. Religion is a construct to allow a culture or society to interface with the unknown or unknowable.

The implication that religions are somehow moral is false. Morality and religion are neither connected nor interdependent.

When the two coexists peacefully, the culture and or society begins to blossom.

reply to post by Deaf Alien

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You're right in the sense that morality is written on our hearts by God. There is a moral law that transcends mens religion. Men discover morality - they do not invent it.



This is where you start to lose a grip on reality. Often the moral thing is not in your own self interest. It has nothing to do with survival to jump in front of a bus to push an old lady out of it's path. It has nothing to do with survival to give your life fighting for freedom. It has nothing to with survival instinct to donate your kidneys to a relative that needs one. But it has everything to do with morality.

Jesus Christ being the prime example by sacrificing his own "survival instinct" on the cross by dying for mankind.

We behave morally because we have a sense we "ought" to do something - often it has nothing to do with common sense. To tell the the truth when a lie would give you the advantage - is moral but doesn't make common sense.

Where does religion come into play? Well people that believe in God know that truly you do not get away with lies even if no one else finds out -- so they are more willing to make moral choices that are against their personal advantage because they are more concerned with glorifying God than with simply getting ahead in this very short life on earth. They are more apt to follow that sense of oughtness because they know that truly everything DOES count.

So yes atheists have morals -- they can't help it --- they just don't have any motivation to follow them when no one is looking and it is to their advantage to ignore them.

YouTube Link

I made a video on the subject.

And apparently religion doesn't need morality as per the pedophile priest scandal in the Catholic church.

Jim and Tammy

Jimmy Swaggert

Oral Roberts

it's a big list, but you get the idea....

reply to post by Deaf Alien

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Great assertion but I don't buy it for several reasons. For one thing, I doubt we'd agree on those behaviors we considered moral. For instance, I would consider fornication immoral but you might not and it might conveniently not be one of those behaviors for which evidence exists for its natural evolution. You cite murder and the 'golden rule', i.e. do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Within the topic of murder, would we even agree on what was murder? For instance, is it murder if I kill my neighbor to keep them from killing my other neighbor? If I wouldn't mind if my neighbor came over without permission and took some grapes off my vine, is it o.k. to go pick some of his without permission? I seriously doubt it because that doesn't take into account the difference in valuations that each of us might place on our grapes (even if they are identical in every way).

So, how about a list of moral behaviors that spring forth from the pressures of selection on human society? Would they include prohibitions against stealing, adultery, coveting, and telling lies? How about disobedience to civil laws when you can get away with it, e.g. speeding. How about exceptions when the circumstances required it, e.g. when the midwives lied to pharaoh that the Hebrew women simply had their children too quickly. They saved a lot of babies. Jesus gave us some very important exceptions for interpreting the laws strictly, for instance, in matters of charity, necessity, and piety.

So, I'd like to see both a list of your "natural moral laws" and the set of exceptions by which society would function smoothly and prosper so that we could all procreate with ease, i.e. be selected.

Oh yes it does. Remember the golden rule? You would want someone to save your life, right? This is about social interaction and our survival as a group.


Golden rule again. To give life fighting for freedom for your family and your neighbors to ensure their survival as a group.


No motivation? What about the motivation to exist in a society?


Good job on the video. I especially like the subtitles, thanks

[edit on 8-8-2008 by Deaf Alien]

Morality is created out of logic and perception. Not from the land of make believe.

Something that believing in the magic dude in the clouds that you like to invent as god is not reached through the same standards of reason.

Morality is influenced by environment pure and simple.
What I consider immoral can be considered proper by another and if it is truly their belief that they are doing no wrong then they are not.

Only the people who perceive that others actions can make the call. and it's only their own personal call at that.

There are no rules only our interpretations...

Then how do you explain the fact that every individual on this planet has a different set of moral values? The Christian sitting in the pew at the front of the church might find it immoral to kill a deer, and yet in the very same church, two rows back, someone is an avid hunter. Morals vary depending on how you were brought up. Even if you were brought up in church, your morals vary from person to person.



I'm not sure how this is an argument. Donating a kidney is something I would do, and I am an avid atheist. Morals do come from your interactions with other people, what you were taught as a child, and from your own postulations. Jehova's witnesses don't believe in taking blood from the body, and a lot of friends and family of those people have died because of their choice in religion and refusal to give blood. That certainly is not moral, where is the imprint of god there?

Heck, let's just throw the whole slew of Christian terrorism groups out and make them impervious to judgment. At least they're not Atheists, who have no morals.




Unfalsifiable claim.



There are plenty of atheists and even religious people who would adamantly disagree with this point, immediately making it untrue, since your making a claim for everyone.



Here you make the assumption that Atheists are just "trying to get ahead" in life and won't make "moral" choices. Again, there are a lot of Atheists out there who can easily prove this statement wrong, and not because they're afraid of going to hell.



Another bold claim that is easily proven wrong. I could kill my mother right now, bury her, and leave the country. No one would find out and I'd probably get off scotfree because I'd be long gone and in the woods in Sweden before anyone knew. Why don't I do it? It's wrong, immoral, and I love my mother dearly. Please, don't make claims for me, it's disgusting and immoral.

[edit on 8-8-2008 by OnionCloud]

Our morality simply comes from the fact that we enjoy the benefits of living in a society.

Wolves, monkeys, lions, sparrows, zebras, antelope and lots of other animals work in societies. Why... because it's easier to survive that way.

As humans we too found it was much easier to survive as a group. Some people doing the hunting, some doing the gathering, some doing the child raising, some just being the lookout and warning us that predators are near.

And surprise... when you work in a society you have to work with the society. And in a society... the "golden rule" it is learned... is the best way to interact with others. You don't want your stuff stolen, you don't want to be killed or your loved ones killed, you don't want to be molested, or tortured, or lied to. You have to contribute your time and energy (and yes sometimes your organs) if you want the society to be willing to do the same for you.