Russian tanks 'rolling into Georgian breakaway'

Your right, i swear some people here really wish a world war would happen. I dont know why some people are like that, its almost like they want the end of the world to come.


As far as people saying that Russia is defending the peace keepers, and the many citizens there that have dual russian citizenship. Get a clue ok?

Seriously, Russian Peacekeepers? And just when were those guys sanctioned to be there by the UN? Guess what? They never were sanctioned by the UN, and they were never peacekeepers either. What they are is an illegal occupying force, on sovereign Georgian soil.

As far as all the so called "russian citizens" in that region. The truth is that russia went in there a few months ago, and gave everyone they could new russian passports. So that later on they would have pretext to invade and protect these so called russian citizens. These people were never russian citizens, and the was simply a pretext to move in russian forces. Clearly Georgia had enough of it, and decided to try and squelch the problem before it got any bigger.

Seriously i know a lot of people on this board dislike the US government, myself included, but dont automatically assume that Russia is any better. God, i mean our government is not the best, but i thank God that i am american, and live in the US, if you think its bad here, try living in russia, where you would be killed if you ever tried to protest anything the government is doing.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity

excuse me, but those migs invaded georgian airspace. where are you getting your information, which is so biased as to be very scary. mine is coming from overseas radio in ukraine and russia, which our family listens to in their own languages, and it is fairly clear what the propoganda and what is real. but you know what? the ignorance being shown in this particular topic is overwhelming me, so i won't be back.

Bro you wanna tell me you're listening to russian radio stations and you're pissed off at northwolf for his facts being "biased" towards Russians? What northwolf has said can be read in every link that has been provided in this thread so far.

Oh and of all the countries what makes you think Ukraine would tell you what is "real" or not in this conflixt?

Last question: Are you an immigrant now living overseas listening to Ukrainian or Russian radio for news, or do you live in Russia or Ukraine and simply don't own a TV set?

regards,
Maestro

Originally posted by Alphard
Funny how many brain-washed russians pop up around these topics. Initially I thought they have been sent as disinfo agents but I have come to realize it is much more ingenious... The inside-Russia propaganda is so strong that most of its citizens can be counted as disinfo agents...

All I ask of people who read this thread - do not take everything you read as fact.. Just do some research yourself also and you will see who is telling the truth and who not.

ROFL WOW!!!!!

Originally posted by depetydog
reply to post by manson_322

 

go smoke some hindu kush asshole, it wont be americans kissing there ass goodbye.

wow i didn't know we can cuss on here,

really interesting

Originally posted by chinabean

Originally posted by depetydog
reply to post by manson_322

 

wow i didn't know we can cuss on here,

really interesting

totally agree!!
Is that some new kind of shieet that one can smoke?
Hindu Kush is a mountain range that separates Afghanistan and Pakistan.. areas with easy access to ganja, heroin and the likes..
so 'smoke some Hindu Kush' does sound quite interesting.. some new 'get-high' concoction there, deputy?

Edited for profanity. No we can't cuss here.
gallopinghordes
Forum Mod

[edit on 9-8-2008 by gallopinghordes]

U people are fools to think the US goes to war for oil, the only reason the US buys oil for other countries is so that they can invest back in the US markets, it's written on paper. Before the Sudis were a bunch of Nomads until the US came in and made a pack to make them rich.

Linsey Williams was the Chaplin for the transcontinental oil pipeline in Alaska, and said that Alaska alone had the largest oil fields in the world, and possibly the whole middle east, but the oil fields were classified. If we drilled for the oil, it would be cheap as water, so they devise a plan to make others rich in return they would make the US rich. The only two oil countries that did not agree was Iran and Iraq and look at what happen to them now.

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation


Amen to that!

That guy was really starting to tick me off.

Well Kosovo, you finally outdid yourself. You set a precedent for the world. Why can't we all live under one unified culturally indistinguishable banner like in the good ol' days?

[edit on 9-8-2008 by cognoscente]

Lets look at an even broader picture here.

1.Not too long ago Georgian Special Forces raided the border of one of the rebeling regions and fired at an outpost (I think it was an outpost).
- Unfortunately I cannot find the link to a news article on this since the current conflict is the only thing on the page if I type "Georgia" into a search engine.
- If I remember correctly there was no reason behind that raid, so it is safe to make a conclusion that it was an act of provocation.
- Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov has accused the West of sending instructors to Georgia to help train Georgia's Special Forces. While there is no evidence available, this is a serious and bold accusation.

2. Remember the protests in Georgia in 2007? That right there is a reality check for djerwulfe who interpreted the reason behind Russia's current actions as simply being pissed at Georgia for being pro-western.
- www.iht.com...
- Georgian riot police attack and brutaly beat Georgians protesting against the current Georgian goverment and the course which the country was heading in.
- Georgian riot police shows off their sparkly new "mickey mouse" gear, and it doesn't take a Harvard graduate to tell that this gear is clearly not manufactured in Georgia - obviously purchased (or supplied) from the west.
- Previously mentioned accusasions about Georgia's special forces being trained by foreign instructors comes to mind.
- Georgian riot police were using US tech to scatter the crowd. Those lovely noise dishes mounted onto cars were invented in the US as means of crowd control. So while evidence of the US "training" Georgia's special forces is thin, there's a solid fact that it certainly is supplying them with equipment. Even though this is not that major yet since this isn't exactly military equipment, just riot control toys.

3. Ukraine has been supplying weapons to Georgia since 2005.
- www.ruvr.ru...
- www.en.rian.ru...
- This starts taking place exactly one year after the Orange Revolution in Ukraine (2004), when current pro-western Ukrainian president Victor Yushenko managed to snatch power. I live in Kiev, was present during the protests, so believe me when I tell you: it is surprising and shocking that Yushenko started sending weapons to Georgia only after a year in office, befor he even remotely came close to fullfiling any of his promises that he made during his elections (to this day none were fullfiled btw). Mind you these supplies of arms were not minor rifle shipments.
- "In the fall of 2005, Kokoity for the first time said publicly that Ukraine was supplying T-72 tanks, Mi-8 helicopters, armored personnel carriers, missiles and other weapons to Georgia." All that only after a year of friendship?
- Keep in mind that Saakashvili came to power through the Rose Revolution in 2003. So 2003 Georgia goes pro-western, followed by Ukraine in 2004, with brand new Ukraine alost immediately starting to send aid to brand new Georgia? I smell a pre-planned agenda here guys.
- ""It was done on the order from President Yushchenko," a former employee of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry told the popular daily Nezavisimaya Gazeta. He said the data provided by Ukraine to the UN Register of Conventional Arms were "declarative and voluntary," and therefore likely to be incomplete." Oh snap! Declarative and voluntary actions ordered by the new pro-western president himself! So this was not Georgia asking for arms...why would the new pro-western goverment of Ukraine care this much about Georgia?!? Ukraine's own military is at the bottom of the pit as it is!

4. Remember the Georgian military drone that was shot down by a Russian plane that was flying over Abkhazia? Abkhazia is one of the three regions looking to seperate towards Russia.
- www.reuters.com...
- Georgia is not supposed to be flying over these regions according to the ceasefire agreement. So 4 months ago (this happened in April) Georgia was was doing reconoissance over these regions huh? Interesting.
- The drone that was shot down was Israeli made if memory serves. There was a thread here on ATS on this, where ATSers identified that drone. That drone was supplied to Georgia by the West. So now the West is not just supplying riot control toys to Georgia, but serious sophisticated military tech. Ouch.

5.

Originally posted by maloy -Condoleezza Rice visited a month before the attack.

- www.dw-world.de...
- this would hardly be suspicious if it wasn't for the war that followed only a month after, but is still worth noting.

6.

Originally posted by maloy -U.S. held military exercises in Georgia right before the increase in hostilities.

And that's the main course. Same source as #5, read down the page.
- www.dw-world.de...
- ".....the exercises had begun Saturday at Vaziani military base, less than 100 kilometers (60 miles) from the Russian border." There's a shocker. Vaziani is home to the 4th Infantry Brigade (link below)
***en.wikipedia.org...
- If it turns out that the 4th Brigade was the one that assaulted Ossetia then one should certainly not hesitate to blame the US for training an agressor force responsible for deaths of many innocent civilians.
- The exercises ended on July 31st, that's a week befor the assault. Any suspicions there?
- Ossetia was chosen out of the three rebeling regions because if Georgia would attack Abkhazia or Ajara it would leave it's capitol Tiblisi undefended IMO. Ossetian capitol is just 75miles away from Tiblisi. Should the Georgians be pushed back, they would just move back to defend Tiblisi. They've even already prepared themselves for this by holding those exercises near their capitol, exercise codename - "Immediate Response" lol.

Here's a map of Russian Forces concentrations and air strikes in Georgia, plus a pretty good article about why Vaziani was bombed:
www.stratfor.com...


Regards
Maestro

[edit on 9-8-2008 by maestro46]

alrighty, im going to sleep.


i pray for peace in the moarning...

Originally posted by maestro46
Lets look at an even broader picture here.

1.Not too long ago....

With that brought into light, I would like to ask Mattifikation, Lucidity, Djerwulfe, and Jetnex to: please try to explain to me how on earth the current conflict is all entirely because of big bad possesive Russia, how Georgia is not the agressor, and how the heck you concluded that the US is clear of blame and has nothing to do with this.

Regards,
Maestro

reply to post by maestro46

I think the answer is in the earlier posts.

But, Georgia wants to be NATO and Russia doesn't want them to be.

I didn't know that Ossetia actually had a distinct language. Interesting and good to know, BUT, if every linguistic group was entitled to having a sovereign nation carved out for them, well, that's just silly.
There are places with hundreds of language groups within a few square miles.
Africa: you'd a have 5 acre nations if a distinct language qualified as a National identity.

I'm sorry, but I have to side with the group that champions free markets and political tolerance, historically.

Um, does anybody remember the USSR? Stalin? Khrushchev?
If the Soviets were so benign, why didn't western Europe join the Soviet Union? Was not Putin a ranking party member and KGB bigwig?
What? "He got better?" He's a totally different person now?

If a country isn't recognized as existing by the international community, then it doesn't exist.

Otherwise, as of this moment I declare my backyard "Djerwulfia." It has a distinct culture and history and should be able to draft its own constitution. It isn't subject to US law anymore because the majority of US citizens don't share my views.









i

reply to post by amfirst



I basically agree with this scenario, except, how does that mean that the US doesn't go to war for oil? Just because we have untapped oil fields?

reply to post by djerwulfe

But, Georgia wants to be NATO and Russia doesn't want them to be.

More like Georgia is slowly loosing controlling of Abkhazia and now with Southern Ossetia wanting independence and fears even more territories will break off and join Russia, they are resorting to drastic measures.

If they really want to aggravate the Russians and draw them into this conflict in a bid to make a desperate plea to the West for help they've made a big mistake, because Russia is not backing down.

What did you expect them to do? Sit still and let the Georgians shoot down more of their fighters:
news.yahoo.com...
www.timesonline.co.uk...

I didn't know that Ossetia actually had a distinct language. Interesting and good to know, BUT, if every linguistic group was entitled to having a sovereign nation carved out for them, well, that's just silly.

You don't know much do you?
That's not the point here.

South Ossetia is NOT a break-away republic. They've been independently governed since 1991 without Georgian influence. They were an autonomous Soviet Oblast during the Cold War.
Just because the clueless West don't recognise them doesn't mean they don't exist.

They have been living without Georgian influence for almost 2 decades now, it's only because of the current situation with Abkhazia that Georgia is deciding to escalate tensions and invade Southern Ossetia, it's a land grab, nothing more.

If a country isn't recognized as existing by the international community, then it doesn't exist.

Your obviously clueless about this subject.

Just because NATO or the US can't locate Ossetia on a map doesn't mean it's not there.

South and North Ossetia have historically been inseparable for hundreds of years. They have their own culture, language and distinct ethnic identity.

Georgia only got possession of Southern Ossetia after the fall of the Soviet Union, it had been a Russian territory since the 1800's.

It isn't subject to US law anymore because the majority of US citizens don't share my views.

That's exactly the point, the majority of Ossetians want to be reunited with their Northern brothers and become part of Russia which has been consistently backing them for decades.

Not continue to live under the constant threat of occupation and war in volatile Georgia.
The will of people speaks louder than politics.

I'm sorry, but I have to side with the group that champions free markets and political tolerance, historically.

Who Georgia? Who just last night shelled Tskhinvali and killed 1,400 civilians or shot down Russian aircraft without provocation?

www.independent.co.uk...

[edit on 9/8/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Originally posted by djerwulfe
I think the answer is in the earlier posts.

Not many links with facts in your other posts, just your opinion and an article that outright spits bias to the reader's face. However, I respect your opinion even if I find it ridiculous.

Originally posted by djerwulfe
But, Georgia wants to be NATO and Russia doesn't want them to be.

Yes, I think everyone can agree on that. However just because this fact has played a key role in tensions between Russia and Georgia, we cannot simply ignore other facts. I'm talking about the facts that I listed in my post, and the one fact that dominates every other argument >>------->> Russian troops were killed in the Georgian attack. First and foremost Russia is retaliating. This kind of a thing cannot go unpunished by any nation which respects itself.

Now you can name all the benifits that Russia gets from this, and you can name them as many times as you want and say that Russia is really in for matterial reasons. The truth of the matter is the conqueror imposes whatever he wishes upon the conquered. If Russia wins (which it certainly will) you can expect it to take everything it wishes, as anyone else would. Every nation has done this in war. Just because there are material and political benifits to a conflict does not mean they are the only things in play.

Originally posted by djerwulfe
I didn't know that Ossetia actually had a distinct language. Interesting and good to know, BUT, if every linguistic group was entitled to having a sovereign nation carved out for them, well, that's just silly.

So its safe to conclude you do not have much experience with this side of the world do you. The East has very different values compared to the west, however I always thought every nationed valued it's language. I understand that as people move overseas and start different lives they forget their culture more and more as they become mixed in a sea of different nationalities, and thus the concept of culture generaly deteriorates. You must understand that speaking a different language means having a whole seperate chapter in history, and is basis enough to demand to be seperate. Now you can demand all you want, doesn't mean that its gonig to come granted on a silver platter, but it is a fair argument and no, it's not silly. But the roots of the Ossetian/Georgian issue are not as simple as language differences alone by far.

Originally posted by djerwulfe
There are places with hundreds of language groups within a few square miles.
Africa: you'd a have 5 acre nations if a distinct language qualified as a National identity.

Yes, you should also know that in Africa these tribes are represented in their goverments, and their culture is respected. Atleast the UN does what it can to see to that.

Originally posted by djerwulfe
I'm sorry, but I have to side with the group that champions free markets and political tolerance, historically.

No need to apologize. Although political tolorence is an overstatement.

Originally posted by djerwulfe
Um, does anybody remember the USSR? Stalin? Khrushchev?
If the Soviets were so benign, why didn't western Europe join the Soviet Union?

Why yes, I've heard of it. I live in it's aftermath actually. I can see how Stalin can fit into the topic - he was Georgian. Krushchev was from Ukraine so are you hinting at what I said about Ukraine's arms sales to Georgia there?? And you most likely hold "Russia" and "USSR" as synonims don't you? On a more serious note - What on earth do they really have to do with this? And Western Europe didn't want to join the USSR because it was THE USSR damn it, how hard is that? Can you just take my word for it when I tell you Russia is not the USSR, and this will spare us both many a page in this thread?

Originally posted by djerwulfe
Was not Putin a ranking party member and KGB bigwig?
What? "He got better?" He's a totally different person now?

No, he didn't get better...matter of fact he hasn't changed a bit. Tell me do you interprite the KGB as some evil twisted organization, who's sole criteria on the application for was to be brutal and cruel? You really should do some reading on these things. You just might find out that there were in fact decent and intelligent people, and many of them, who served in the KGB (I have met many).

Originally posted by djerwulfe
If a country isn't recognized as existing by the international community, then it doesn't exist.

So Kosovo and Taiwan don't exist either? Or is the "international community" simply the US, Canada, England, France and Germany?

Originally posted by djerwulfe
Otherwise, as of this moment I declare my backyard "Djerwulfia." It has a distinct culture and history and should be able to draft its own constitution. It isn't subject to US law anymore because the majority of US citizens don't share my views.

May I reserve the right to be the first tourist then? Lol actually go for it. Last time a portion of the US tried to split guess what happened? ***GASP*** The American civil war! Even befor when America wanted independance from the King of England guess what happened? ***GASP*** War yet again.

But really, do start that own country thing of yours. I haven't sh*t myself with laughter from watching the news since Bush finally learned to give speeches properly...more or less...after 8 years. Mind you I wouldn't be laughing at you, it just reminds me of that Family Guy episode. I would pay to see that happen in real life hehe.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: I understand your opinion, but an opinion is only that.









i



[edit on 9-8-2008 by maestro46]

[edit on 9-8-2008 by maestro46]

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira

Just because NATO or the US can't locate Ossetia on a map doesn't mean it's not there.

Lmao, reminds me of that video I saw on youtube where the guy was giving out horrific statistics about American education. There was something about 1/3 of american students not being able to find their own country on a map. What would that mean if what you are saying was actually so in international politics rofl (no offense meant to the US really).

Regards,
Maestro

Originally posted by Alphard
Funny how many brain-washed russians pop up around these topics. Initially I thought they have been sent as disinfo agents but I have come to realize it is much more ingenious... The inside-Russia propaganda is so strong that most of its citizens can be counted as disinfo agents...

You're right, It is funny how many brain-washed "simpletons" pop up around these topics.
Take a look at this-
www.youtube.com...
And this-
www.youtube.com...

Now i wonder which side is really spewing propaganda...
BTY, i'm not Russian.
And enough of that disinfo nonsense... someone's got way too much freetime.

[edit on 17-8-2008 by peanutbutter]

[edit on 17-8-2008 by peanutbutter]