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Russia/Georgia Situation News & Updates


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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 09:54 PM by RenegadePsycho


Can anyone find any new information at this moment? Sky News & BBC News 24 are not reporting anything. I mean there has to be some new information around??



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 09:55 PM by mopusvindictus


Originally posted by zman






Lets call a spade a spade... we started this

Not the EU, it has been US pressure all along to expand nato to Russias borders and US pressure throughout Eastern Europe to lay down our missile defense systems there.

This is why Russia is really doing this

I for one am still an American and... taking responsability for our actions I think... is a good place to start in remembering what makes us a great nation



Its a neigbor that needs help. understand, that the US did not start this and that the EU has said nothing, which is what I expected from them. All everyone seems to say is US this and US that, its not fair. The Eu has to do something. Look who is ahead of the NATO force, its the netherlands?. Not the US my american friend.




Come on, Who's the head of Nato... Nato practically barely exists without us, we have a Navy the size of the nearest 17 competitors, the most advanced technical military in the world and we spend as much as the next 10 Countires behind us...

For all intents and purposes we are nato... be it if the Netherlands or any other country has a title lol, what do the Netherlands contribute military wise... a couple of midgets on a pony with a crossbow?

We have craped all over Russia since the collapse of the wall, we have pushed Nato to their borders and we are installing a missile defense system and... I know darn well there is a whole other layer to that system that's not much spoken of... we have and are in the process of... removing MAD and there is only one reason to do that...superiority.

I don't blame the administration or our government for pushing... That's their JOB

But to sit back and pretend like we don't know what is going on is just... obnoxious

You have to respect the Russians, they forever give us a good run for our money... imho, if I was in charge... this is where you shake Putins hand and say "good show" because they always pop in a smart and worthy adversary...

This round of aquisition went real well for the west, the formation of an EU, nato boundaries all the way through Eastern Europe and major portions of the Mideast taken from the hands of leaders who were...unstable to say the least...

No one can say we screwed up here... not as far as American Interests are concerned...

But knowing when you have pushed as far as you can go fortifying and stabalizing things is part of the game too...

We are OVERREACHING

and... yeah we did start this bro, LOL we are putting Missile defense systems in Poland that can knock out the shielded Soviet missiles, we are efectively about to neutralize MAD and the Russians know this...hell I know this, how can anyone not know this?

Even Isreal is barking at them... what should we expect?

You know how ww2 happened? A nation called germany was looking for a little bit of it's ego back after a defeat and it didn't get it... In those days after we Won... we made friends after ww2, we treated Japan and germany well, remembered the lessons of giving a vanquished foe some respect back...

It seems we have forgotten those lessons this time and this is why...the one insult that is true about us holds... we are being, ungracious, we take our victories with... ill manners... are Arrogant about it as we have been told repeatedly.


It would not have been such a bad thing to show Russia a little respect, let it play it's part with Iran, get in on some of the Oil money...


They after all let us use bases in former territories, gave us info on Afghanastan, didn't directly oppose what we have been doing...

all they asked for these last few years was a little respect... now they are demanding it... and that's not at least in a major way our fault?










[edit on 11-8-2008 by mopusvindictus]



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 09:58 PM by Rentor


Ukraine has no intent to provide Georgia with military-technical help.

According to an UNIAN correspondent, Kostyantyn Yeliseyev, deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine and special envoy of the Ukrainian President, claimed this to a press conference in Kyiv today.

“We are currently considering the opportunity of providing relief and support in two spheres – political and humanitarian. As for military or military-technical collaboration, this is not on agenda at present”, he said.
unian.net...



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:00 PM by Shazam The Unbowed


Originally posted by mopusvindictus


Lets call a spade a spade... we started this




Wow. Ive heard of "blame America first" but this is ridiculous.
Im just... stunned.



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:02 PM by princeofpeace


Because this bad boy is winding on down. Everyone is getting a good nights sleep before the documents are signed and the troops pull out tomorrow. Go get some rest. Its done.


Originally posted by RenegadePsycho
Can anyone find any new information at this moment? Sky News & BBC News 24 are not reporting anything. I mean there has to be some new information around??



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:04 PM by mattguy404


Well this is an interesting take:



I won't quote anything from the article - there's nothing new. But this is going to be a massive propaganda onslaught by both the west and east media.

www.smh.com.au...



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:06 PM by mattguy404


Originally posted by princeofpeace
Because this bad boy is winding on down. Everyone is getting a good nights sleep before the documents are signed and the troops pull out tomorrow. Go get some rest. Its done.


Originally posted by RenegadePsycho
Can anyone find any new information at this moment? Sky News & BBC News 24 are not reporting anything. I mean there has to be some new information around??



Russia rejects draft UN peace resolution



www.abc.net.au...

What papers are you referring to?




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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:06 PM by maloy
+4 more 

How about this for a plausible scenerio from a neutral side (something similar was proposed by Novodvorskaya - a well known anti-Kremlin and anti-Putin Russian political intellectual):


Throughout the summer Georgia is provoked by S. Ossetian separatists. They conduct raids with gunfire on Georgian villages in S. Ossetia. Georgian militia respons by same gunfire.

Georgians pull up more troops to the area gradually, because of the rising tensions. Russia pulls in some more peacekeepers - looking at Georgian actions with caution.

The S. Ossetians see an opportunity in this massing of troops, and increase their raids on Georgians. Georgians increase the counter raids. Russian peacekeepers turn a blind eye.

A Georgian APC is attacked by S. Ossetian provocators on 6th-7th, and several people killed. Georgia decides it is time for action, also looking with caution at Russian massing of troops. On the night of the 7th they start shelling the separatist positions in and around Tskhinvalli, where there happen to be many civilians as well as fighters. Shelling continues through the night as Georgians attempt to quickly put down the separatist positions and restore the republic as part of Georgia - but many civilians die and Georgia does not advance far.

Russia alarmed by civilian deaths and the deaths of its peacekeepers, and decides it is time for action to prevent an all-out war. Georgia continues shelling. After the Russian troops move in they are also hit together with the separatists. Georgia is less than thrilled with Russian troops on what it considers its territory. Russia is mad because Georgia's attack killed many civilians.

Russia begins its air strikes because of Georgia's continued attack. Conflict escalates. Several rumored cease fire pledges are made, but confusion results in none being abided by.

Russia stops at Tskhinvalli but are still taking fire from Georgians. Georgians are still firing because they are getting hit by air strikes. It a "you hit me I hit you" kind of thing for both sides.

Russia makes a crucial decision on a key move to pursue Georgian positions firing on them from inside Georgia. Air strikes are unsuccesful and Russia loses several jets. Russia decides to do several quick strikes into Georgia to pursue the Georgian troops.

Meanwhile Moscow uses this as an opportunity to scare Saakashvilli into stepping down from power. They suggest a "regime change" will do for a cease fire in UN. They succeed in scaring Saakashvilli, but not in the way they expected.

Saakashvilli uses these quick but limited advances by Russians to wage a propaganda war to his advantage. He blows the alarm bells that Russia is invading all of Georgia and appeals to the West, and blows the events out of proportion. Russia does not send in any more troops for now seeing what he is doing, and is starting to scale back its attack - which never was a plan for an actual invasion but precision strikes - and turns back the troops. Then the military minds and political minds converge in Russia - and start to question both the attack and retreat - what do they do now? Take advantage of confusion and press on, or scale back and accept cease fire?

Meanwhile the West is buying the whole thing up - perhaps because it wants to. Talk starts of an anti-Russian alliances to help Georgia wage a proxy war - that did not have to happen.

The U.S.'s role is in supporting Georgia and Saakashvilli - and approving much of what he does. U.S. trained Georgian troops, and started talk of NATO membership. This made the situation worse, because Russia now has another incentive to keep fighting, and Saakashvilli has another incentive to raise the alarm and call for Western help.




So here you have it.

Each sides responds to actions of others first disproportionately. Georgia respons disproportionately to S. Ossetian separatists. Then Russia responds disproportionately to Georgia. Then the media and Saakashvilli blow everything out of proportions and you got mass confusion.

S. Ossetian rebels in this theory provoked the whole thing, knowing of both Georgian and Russian massing in the area. The media spun the whole thing out of control and only added to confusion.

And a war that didn't have to happen might now happen. Georgia did not want to kill civilians, and Russia did not want to invade. But because of propaganda and political ambitions on both sides - a major conflict flared up.

Now Russia is the odd man out. If it continues its attacks - Saakashvilli and his alarm will be proved right. If it retreats back, Saakashvilli will claim that the U.S. statements scared it off - and Russian military will be embarassed.


DENY IGNORANCE. No one is right. No one is wrong. And no one is neutral. No one really knows what is going on. This is how wars start.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by maloy]

Some parts of this were suggested on website of Echo of Moscow radio. It is in Russian. The radio station is anti-Kremlin and anti-NATO, and tries to approach many things from neutral side.

www.echo.msk.ru...

I strongly suggest those few of you who can read Russian to take a look at the articles on this website - or use an auto-translator to post them here. I'll try to translate some when I am back.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by maloy]


[edit on 11-8-2008 by maloy]



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:10 PM by princeofpeace


I retract my previous statement.

Russia moving in on Georgina capital right now:

"Russian forces are moving in on the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, and the Georgian military has received orders to gather en masse around the capital and hold off the attack for as long as possible, Georgia's chargés d'affaires, Vladimir Konstantinidi, told The Jerusalem Post on Monday night."

www.jpost.com...



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:13 PM by maloy


reply to post by princeofpeace



They talk of no concrete proof. Just different quotes from different experts.



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:17 PM by all2human


As i see it . Georgia needed stability to join fully into the NATO treaty, bought arms and recieved training from USA, USA/NATO needed it for missles(shield) and bases . Russia who has citizens in SO Georgia didn't want missles or USA?NATO bases next door in Georgia .who has more to gain or lose is up to you each country had a motive i'm sure theres more to it, but who started it is of no consequence ,There are no innocent parties in war.period.



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:17 PM by AceWombat04


reply to post by maloy



You just more or less described my current thinking in its entirety. Both parties are at fault, and using one another's actions to their political advantage, with the media reporting those PR statements (from both sides) as fact and the world eating it up. Granted I can't be certain, but that's my current hypothesis; that this has gotten away from both parties now, and both are simply reacting, and capitalizing on one another's actions as much as they can politically.

Meanwhile...


TBILISI, Georgia (CNN) -- The number of people displaced by the warfare in Georgia is approaching 100,000 and the figure could rise, the U.N. refugee agency said Monday.

International agencies and nations were working to help thousands of people fleeing violence in war-ravaged Georgia, where 275,000 previously displaced people, refugees, stateless people and returnees had been living even before hostilities broke out last week between Georgia and Russia.


www.cnn.com...


[edit on 8/11/2008 by AceWombat04]



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:21 PM by mattguy404


Israel fears Russian-Syrian arms pact



On his last visit to Moscow, Assad reportedly expressed interest in procuring Russia's S-300 air and missile defense system, but to no avail. Israel is now trying to keep Russia from selling this state-of-the-art system to Iran, which is also interested in buying it. The Russian news agency, quoting a spokesman for the Syrian information ministry, said Assad's trip will take place on August 20 and last two weeks. The report said Assad would meet Russian leaders and discuss bilateral relations, as well as world and regional developments, in particular the Middle East diplomatic process and the situation in Iraq.


www.jpost.com...

Nothing breaking about this, but something that adds some more beef to the situation.



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:21 PM by shermanium


i know i'm new around here.

and im sorry to sound like a jerk, I know emotions are high.

but can we keep this thread to updates with links please?

thank you.


and great work everyone.



[edit on 11-8-2008 by shermanium]

[edit on 11-8-2008 by shermanium]



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:29 PM by Rentor


Russia opens new front, drives deeper into Georgia

Here's a good Thing to read and clear up some confusions
Okay never mind link doesn't work.But it states Russia in fact invaded Georgia and took Gori and now regrouping and will head out to capital sometime maybe
3-4hours

[edit on 11-8-2008 by Rentor]



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:31 PM by Founding


Proof Russia is moving out of their so-called peace keeping sphere.

An Associated Press reporter saw Russian troops in control of government buildings in this town just miles from the frontier and Russian troops were reported in nearby Senaki.





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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:34 PM by Robert280


basically the news is saying noone nows what is happening/what will happen



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:36 PM by mybigunit


Hey everyone there really is good news about this war. The bankers will make a KILLING in profits. So everyone celebrate because at least there will be someone who comes out on top of this whole mess no matter who gets killed. (Sarcasm Ended)

[edit on 11-8-2008 by mybigunit]



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:38 PM by maloy


Originally posted by Founding
Proof Russia is moving out of their so-called peace keeping sphere.

An Associated Press reporter saw Russian troops in control of government buildings in this town just miles from the frontier and Russian troops were reported in nearby Senaki.


They are talking about Zugdidi. We have been talking about these news for over 7 hours now. Both sides long confirmed actions in that town. You proof is yesterday's news - sorry.



Oh and on a side note - I see that Putin = Hitler picture is Georgian protest, and I saw much Saakashvilli = Hitler stuff from Russia's propaganda. Very eerie.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by maloy]



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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 10:52 PM by JacKatMtn


Here is a lengthy piece which is from GORI according to the article:

Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half

RUSSIAN forces pushed a second front deep into Georgia, seizing towns and a military base in the western parts of the country. Georgia's president said his country had been effectively cut in half with the capture of the main east-west highway near the central city of Gori.
The Russian Defence Ministry denied Georgian claims on Monday of taking Gori and rejected allegations that its forces were preparing to head for the capital, Tbilisi, according to Russian news reports.

But it appeared that Russia aimed to use its huge military to intimidate its diminutive neighbour and force it to abandon any hope of regaining control of two Russian-backed separatist provinces.


The end of the article say AP, but I cannot be sure, with all of the conflicting reports, I guess we should post them up and try to weed through them all



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