War in Georgia

so how many of you think that this has gone to far to be fixed?

are we dealing with two stubborn titans, us and russia, that will never back down in the face of each others aggression?

are the russian- us political ties damaged beyond repair?

or are we - god i hope not- on the verge of a world changing conflict?

i mean, you all saw how "emotional" bush was in his speech. putin is also using very dangerous rhetoric.

Notice: specially for English-speaking visitors - a word-for-word translation of the post previously published at Osradio.ru




Georgians and their US-masters would never be forgiven for recent mass slaughter in South Ossetia. Brutal massacre of S. Ossetian civilians by Georgian army during the first days of military operation was nothing but an extreme point of man-hatred. A few examples of acts of genocide are given below.




The road from regional hub Znaur to the village of Dzhava is covered with corpses of S. Ossetian civilians - including women, elders and children. It’s still impossible to bury the dead as all moving objects in that area immediately come under fire of Georgian snipers and artillery.




Tkhsinval, August 8, 2008. According to eyewitnesses a group of S. Ossetian children was burnt alive inside two refugee’s minibuses which headed to Vladikavkaz.




The Khetagurovo massacre - another tragedy of Zharsk province. All young ladies of Khetagurovo village were kidnapped and driven away in unknown direction. Other villagers - men, women and elders were blocked in the building of local church and set on fire. Children were murdered separately. Georgians chopped children’s heads off in presence of their parents. Kidnapped girls have been raped and tortured, their genitals disfigured.




We want to believe that after all Saakashvili’s junta will face adeserved trial soon.

Originally posted by FremenBlueEyes
so how many of you think that this has gone to far to be fixed?

are we dealing with two stubborn titans, us and russia, that will never back down in the face of each others aggression?

are the russian- us political ties damaged beyond repair?

or are we - god i hope not- on the verge of a world changing conflict?

i mean, you all saw how "emotional" bush was in his speech. putin is also using very dangerous rhetoric.

According to Chekov (That's the russian guy's name right) the US-Russian ties have not been affected in any serious manner.

He claimed that after answering some questions after the conclusion of the 5th UN Security council meeting.

It would seem that in a number of Europian countries Georgian immigrants are gearing to form protests against Russian presence in South Ossetia, here is one that happened to my country, the news article might not show much but it was the only one I could find in english.

=News Update=

www.breitbart.com...

Georgian immigrants light church candles in front of a Georgian flag during a demonstration in the northern Greek city of Thessaloniki, Monday Aug. 11, 2008. Russian planes continued airstrikes in Georgia Monday in response to a military offensive against separatists in Georgia's South Ossetia region. (AP Photo/Nikolas Giakoumidis)

This gathering is taking place NOT in the Greek capital Athens as someone would expect since it is the city with the most amount of legal/illegal immigrants in the country of Greece (Greece currently has 10 million registered nationals and another 2 millions are here termed legals with permits of work like green cards or are simply illegals, evading authorities) but in the second largest city of Greece Thessaloniki which is due to the North. It is historically being identified both locally and internationaly and also referred in both foreign and local press, also in almost all older historical books, as the capital of the Northern province of Greece known since the emergence of the Greek state (formerly occupied by the Othoman Empire) as the province of Macedonia. back then it used to be only one of this kind.
It doesn't really make sense for a gathering of Georgian nationals in that city since it has almost the highest unemployment rate of all cities in greece and someone would really expect immigrant presence at least in one of the most favorable places/cities of this country, in seeking of employment since there would be much lower unemployment rates.
By the mention of the provinces name many will remember a dispute over this name "Macedonia" that has originated from claims of the Skopia goverment capital, a country that is lying in the North borders of the Greek republic, this country is also known as "Macedonia" the late 20 years.
This gathering strikes me as odd, since the whole area is the supposed target of a destabilization act orchestrated by an Democrat US government in the years of reign by US pres. Bill Clinton.
I of course didn't choose to believe the above conspiracy theory above but the state of "Macedonia" else referred by Greeks as "pseudoMacedonia" or simply FYROM, has everything to do with the recently recognized Kosovo state which some argue is the start of a major destabilization plan for the Balkans.
All this might not have many to do with the actual thread topic but since I am alarmed at what happens between Russia and Georgia and since this country Greece has almost 2 million legal/illegal immigrants entering soil since 1991 (same the year of the Soviet collapse) and another thing that looks surprising to me is that most of those immigrants come from countries that were ex USSR and are now having good ties with the US, countries like Lithuania, Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Poland etc.
Sometimes we joke with friends saying that someone must be turning around non-US friendly immigrants away from greek borders since the vast majority are people ONLY from those countries including a numerous portion of Albanian citizens that arrived after 1991 Some friend who reads many conspiracy books pointed out that Zionism is behind it since they want their own version of a "Byzantium" and were orchestrating in the fall of old USSR and are now aiding pro-US countries in the Balkans and Caucasus regions and is a long time plan from their part for a future greater zionist state and its future satelite countries. He also claimed that Thessaloniki had the largest Jewish and pro-Zionist community from the entire Balkan peninsula since the dawn of christianity. He is right about that last part since it was true, there also instances in the neighboring countries press at times where they demanded from US to identify these working immigrants as "minorities" in the Greek state. Yet I have chosen to believe none of this conspiracy theories, but still I am alarmed by some occurrences, like the one I described above about that Georgian protest in a foreign country.

I have posted all that in the context of getting a wide view of the Russian Georgian conflict. Also i hope this conflict has nothing to do with any major destabilization plans of SouthEastern/Northern Europian borders.


[edit on 11-8-2008 by spacebot]

As far as i know the US hasnt really done anything thus far except issue statements. I think Russia is about to wrap things up and call it a day. Russia is just now starting to get its act back together economically and militarily. They dont wanna throw away all that progress over something like the Georgian conflict.

Originally posted by FremenBlueEyes
so how many of you think that this has gone to far to be fixed?

are we dealing with two stubborn titans, us and russia, that will never back down in the face of each others aggression?

are the russian- us political ties damaged beyond repair?

or are we - god i hope not- on the verge of a world changing conflict?

i mean, you all saw how "emotional" bush was in his speech. putin is also using very dangerous rhetoric.

reply to post by princeofpeace


I am sure that Russia also doesn't want Ukraine and the other former Soviet states to band together or run to NATO, build-your-base-here invites and all.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

The Khetagurovo massacre - another tragedy of Zharsk province. All young ladies of Khetagurovo village were kidnapped and driven away in unknown direction. Other villagers - men, women and elders were blocked in the building of local church and set on fire. Children were murdered separately. Georgians chopped children’s heads off in presence of their parents. Kidnapped girls have been raped and tortured, their genitals disfigured.

It would be wise if someone put up a website with names and photos of these unfortunate young women, you never know where they might end up. probably in the hands of prostitution cartels. I for once I was surprised to find that in my country we seem to have such an enormous presence of Georgian nationals and the state police issues every now and then crime reports and I am also sad to announce that our fellow Georgians along with the Albanians are making a notable presence in these crime reports. I would want to be pointed at a web page with photos and names of these unfortunate young girls. If they end up in prostitution rings there is a 50% chance they will have to travel illegaly through Turkey to Greece and either stationed there to work illegal or be forwarded to the rest of Europe. A large prostitution and drag corridor is active through Turkey and ends up at the Aegean islands forwarding unfortunate people and drugs to Europe.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
We want to believe that after all Saakashvili’s junta will face adeserved trial soon.

Maybe the Russians and their apologists should just shut up about all these civilian casualties and start remembering what the Russian military did to Grozny in 1999.

Me thinks that Russia should be proud of Georgia, following in its footsteps, by shelling the hell out of civilians. Maybe if Georgia launched ss-21 missiles into a marketplace, as Russia did to the Chechens, the Russians would accept the Georgians as little brothers too.

My personal update:

I have been gone for a while, and now that I am back I find that not much has been changed in the last 6 hours. In a quickly changing conflict like this it is awkward. Of course it is night now in Georgia, and the action has calmed down somewhat.

I have access to Russian television news, and a live satellite feed of CNN, BBC, Fox, MSNBC, and CBS at home (yes Putin doesn't sit near my custom sat dish and block the signals from the West like some of you may think). The news feeds are very very different between Russian channels and Western media - that would be an understatement. I have never seen this much propaganda used by both sides - it is almost frightening. There is simply no middle ground in the press. It's either pro-Russia, or pro-Georgia. What we see happening here is an information war on a larger scale than an actual war. Sort of like what happened when Israel intervened in Lebanon, but on a larger scale.

I admit that Russian news are full of their own propaganda and are totally biased. However at least they bring up some factual stuff, and have been monitoring the conditions in S. Ossetia longer than any Western source (back from July). By the way Russian news report everything coming from Georgian Info Ministry - but they rather make fun of the reports than treat them as definitively factual.

Western media appears to have a single voice today. A voice that mirrors the reports of the Georgian government and its American masters. Never before have I seen such a troubling phenomenon in the Western media. The story is told from one point of view - and so are the facts. Everything else is brushed off entirely, or mentioned as a side note. Almost no mention of how this started - when Georgia killed over a thousand innocent civilians in Tskhinvalli. THAT IS OVER ONE THOUSAND. LET ME REITTERATE THAT AGAIN - OVER 3% OF S. OSSETIAN POPULATION WAS KILLED IN ONE SINGLE DAY - BY GEORGIAN ARMY - BY SAAKASHVILLI.

But the Western media isn't concerned about that. When 14 students die in a school shooting its national headlines for a month. When a major American ally murders over 1,000 people who can't defend themselves - that's not news worthy.




No there is something else more newsworthy - Western media is shouting alarm - America's ally is being invaded from all sides. Tbilisi is a garrison under attack. The Russian bear is sitting in the Caucasus and pounding Georgia to the ground. Saakashvilli says Gori is occupied; he shouts that most of Georgia is taken by the enemy; he pleads for help; he yells that Russians will ethnically cleanse Georgians; he runs for cover from evil Russian jets out to get him; we will not surrender he then announces; he calls for cease fire. WATCH AMERICA - WATCH AND BELIEVE AND LEARN. CNN AND SKY NEWS CAN'T LIE - HOW CAN THEY - THEY ARE FREE AND NON BIASED. Headlines in the West scream INVASION. Georgia is falling.


Now let me just say one word - WHAT


WHAT is really going on? Where is the huge Russian invasion force? Wherever Saakashvilli says it is? Did Gori really fall, or did the Georgians just leave? Was Senaki even occupied, or did the Russians just destroy the air field and helicopters there? How many Russian troops and tanks are within Georgian non-disputed territory? Surely someone can film them?

We have people convinced that Georgia is falling and Russia is invading in full force. We have people spreading panic that Tbilisi is being surrounded and is ready to be stormed.


Deny the ignorance you say? You are being led by your nose by one man who can barely put a sentence of English together - Saakashvilli. He says Russians are in Gori? They must be. He says Tbilisi is about to be attacked? It must be. He says Georgian troops have ceased fire? They must have.

Embrace the ignorance I say.



Reality:

Where is the concrete proof that Russians are in Gori and heading towards Tbilisi? Where is the proof that there was a mass incursion by Russia, besides small scale operations in Senaki and Zugdidi? Where is the burning gun, or the burning tank turret in the case? Where? Up Saakashvilli's you-know-what?

Yes Russians intervened on Georgia's soil I admit - they shouldn't have. But an invasion? Preparation for storming of Tbilisi? Has everyone lost their mind? Does logic no longer prevail and everyone is putting on their helmets preparing for 10 kinds of hell to rain down on Tbilisi?

Perhaps we should stop hypothesizing that Russia is attacking - and ask ourselves why is the Western media raising alarm before proof - in a single voice? A voice that echoes Bush and Cheney?




The truth is - it appears that a massive anti-Russian coalition is forming in the West, assured that Georgia is lost without their help. No sight of Russian tanks yet - but lets be sure and get our hordes ready just in case. Politicians are ready for war - without any proof (as if that is the first time this has happened)

What if there is no mass Russian attack? What if Tbilisi is not in any danger? What if the Russians are only pursuing the Georgian troops to make sure an attack on Tskhinvalli is not renewed?



We are hearing the alarm from the media a day before the fire starts. And in this case the fire may start because of the alarm - not the other way around.



So please let us wait for further confirmation from the conflict zone - concrete confirmation from reporters. I admit my predictions were wrong the moment Russians entered Zagdidi and Senaki. I do not approve of their actions, and am a terrible speculator - a propagandist if you will. But so far I have stuck to factual news, or to rumors which I stated were unconfirmed. Much of the news I posted first turned out to be true. There are no facts pointing that Russians are readying a storm on Tbilisi or are planning an occupation of Georgia.

I am not saying this will not happen for sure. But what I am saying is that we are all jumping on a trampoline of rumors - a trampoline held up by Western news sources.

Regarding my post on page 3:

I honestly do believe, in the grand scheme of things, that it is no accident that today a superpower invaded a country with the same name as an American state. When Americans hear, "War in Georgia" they will inevitably first think of that state in the south.

Just now I received an email from my mom in the US regarding my grandmother:

Dad went to see __ and she is very upset that the Russians are fighting in Georgia, and that the President has been talking about it all day and he needs to do something. Some preacher years ago said that one day Russia would take over, so she calls the wife of this preacher and they discuss the situation. Dad said that this was a country close to Russia, but she said "I'm not convinced of that." So he just didn't say anthing else.

Don't worry, I'll try and correct things.

Anyway, she's 88. Some people actually think this when listening to the news. This is the intention of the powers-that-be, not the leaders of countries, but the group(s) that control them. Some people are being mentally prepared for trouble on US soil before it even happens (and this is one of the desired results of their multi-faceted plan).

The event was planned, the timing was precise, and the purpose is solid - to control your mind and lead you where you normally wouldn't dare go. Whatever is gained in the meantime, otherwise, is a bonus.

OK, Russia should be turned into a parking lot. yay o nay ?

A piece of, I wont call it news yet just speculation captured my attention.
There are fresh threads in ATS speculating about special US army "Ghost" units that might have taken part in the recent crisis in Ossetia and how the popular game Ghost Recon (copyright 2001) was foretelling about this crisis down to the exact year month date.
August 8, 2008.

ATS Ghost Recon thread

There is a thread from the actual Tom Clancy Ghost Recon game forums from players puzzled by this coincidence where another poster found a link to a Russian page (now not working) and a translation (not working also) about the aledged capture of an African American US national in one of the vilages or small cities where the fighting is going on. He was supposedly been captured by Russian or Ossetian soldiers.
Take note that the original find was not from ATS but from Ghost Recon forums and that person probably would speak Russian if he happened to recognize this piece of news.
Anyway it seems strange to me since someone looking for this piece of news should have to do some digging, or the actual piece or link was plainly visible in Izvestia or other pages but now is nowhere to be found.

Izvestia.ru

Translation Link (google)

Here is a capture from this news page translation by a poster on the Ghost Recon forum.

Ghost recon forum captured piece

www.izvestia.ru...


A Google translation... (LINK)

QUOTE
In South Ossetia captured American mercenary

In South Ossetia captured Georgian group suicide, which is U.S. citizen, African American. It is reported "Osetinskoe radio."

The group arrested in the vicinity of the village of Zar, who is on the "road of life" - Zarskoy road.

It is anticipated that U.S. citizen - one of NATO instructors. At this time, he transferred to Vladikavkaz to ascertain all the circumstances of his stay in the territory of the Republic of South Ossetia.

As Rosbalt "previously полп�€ед South Ossetia in the Russian Federation Dmitry Medoev has already reported that among the corpses in Tskhinvali was found several bodies of black people who fought on the side of Georgia.


17:18 10.08.08

Maloy I want to ask you or other members that are watching the Russian news or any foreign language (non english) news, if you happened that you saw any news like that.
If anything like what is speculated, indeed happened and the Russian side is keeping it secret, what is you opinion about it? Why the Russian side would keep a thing like that secret? The original news link seems offline.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by spacebot]

Originally posted by wutone

This whole Russian attack just sets a precedent for the U.S. and Israel to attempt a devastating air-strike on Iran and a decapitation attack on the Iranian leadership. If Russia can attack a puny country that didn't actually attack them directly or indirectly, why can't Israel or the U.S.? No need to make funny claims about WMD's, Oklahoma City terror links, or anthrax letters this time around, just say "If Russia can do it, so can we."

If that was the case then the news media in the west wouldn't be denouncing Russia's actions in every report they release. Why would they continually condemn what Russia is "doing" and then do the same thing using Russias as a defense? That makes no sense.

This war is complete propaganda. Well, except it isn't because people are dying, but this is the deepest I have seen news reports saturated in BS ever. There are usually lines that can be read between but not this time. This is really the start of some 1984 shiz. Eurasia and Eastasia are changing before our eyes. What begins as "Georgia rocket attack kills 1500" within seconds became "Russia wages war on Georgia."

Through this war, the news media seems to have been able to turn the internet against itself. Before this, the reporting in MSM was a mishmash of left and right rhetoric, and crazies from both sides would debate eachother and a couple days later they would report on something that was found out on the internet, which would inevitably make their days of "reporting" look foolish and pointless. This time, they just report one "side" or one "version", knowing that all over the world other "versions" would also be reported on. Instead of everyone trying to tell every side of the story, everyone tells one version, and the internet becomes the connecting point for people to debate the discrepancies and argue. With everyone being lied to and no one even talking about the same thing. People seem to be talking about completely different events. There is no longer "information" to be discovered and produced on the internet in regards to this issue No digging can turn up the breaking news on this story. it is just differnt sides, backing up their version based on facts provided by those who created the version.

This is a scary precedent. Is this how stories will be covered from now on? It isn't how they've been covered, it is similar but it -is- something entirely more sinister.

I never get to use that word. That is scary in itself.

reply to post by coincidence_theorist


First of all,the US has allready done worse than that.Remember Afghanistan?How about Iraq?

Other than that,not that i support (or don't) the possibility of the US and Israel taking advantage of the situation or whatever,but if that's true,then why would they present Russia as good??After all,Iran is one of the Russia's allies.It's better for the "west" to picture them as the "bad guys" so they can have one more excuse to target Iran.

Again,i'm not saying that i believe what's really happening.I don't know so i can't tell,simple as that.

Something big going on as you say . I've never seen the cohesion of erroneous and slanted reporting in the western media to this degree , they are all saying the same . I would find it odd if there were no variartions on an absolute truth, but total agreement on a lie .. it's very worrying .

[edit on 12-8-2008 by Gun Totin Gerbil]

Originally posted by coincidence_theorist
Instead of everyone trying to tell every side of the story, everyone tells one version, and the internet becomes the connecting point for people to debate the discrepancies and argue.

Welcome to the marketplace of ideas. The world is working as it should.

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Haha, yea Russia would never break a ceasefire.
Do you guys really think that 18 years is enough time to shed the old
Soviet attitude?

Presuming that leaders were elected democratically, sure? Has centuries of apparent democracy allowed Americans to prevent warmongers from reaching office despite the fact that they didn't even elect them? What, in your opinion, i so simply about all this?

They tear down a wall and declare "petroiska and glasnost" and in less than 20 years theyve gained this much of the worlds trust?

Not without western media spreading the message they are are somehow powerless/impotent or 'good'? Are the Russians in control of the world media? What are you claiming?

Have you forgotten that Putin was the leader of the KGB, do you actually believe that hes not still in charge anymore?

Putin didn't 'officially' go very far in the KGB so if you want to speculate about secret societies and that he was set up for a special purpose do so specifically without claiming what is patently false.

The FUNNIEST damn thing that I keep hearing from some people is that this is Americas fault

There is nothing funny about the precedent that the US national security state have have set by bombing/invading dozens of countries and staging coups in many, many dozens more. If Russia had such a precedent of foreign interventions maybe informed individuals may be more suspicious of their motives but since they do not it's only logical to presume that the US is up to the same old lies and tricks that so recently allowed them to occupy two countries.

Russia invades its tiny neighbor with a military thats 26,000 members strong and its the USA's fault.
Good ole Russia

If the US invaded Mexico or Canada on the pretext that they are training terrorist or god forbids, they have "WOMD", one might in a way understand but to do the same to TWO nations that have absolutely no proven capacity to attack you trough their own weapon systems/operatives leads to the type of loss of credulity that most people now have in regard to US claims about 'democracy'.

As i understand SO requested Russian help in just the same Afghanistan did in the 80's; if the US could orchestrate at least such a pretense they might seem more respectable but apparently respectability is not something they care about.

Stellar

Originally posted by Gools
Maloy and others:

Did you guys catch the Bush statement today where he referred to fighting starting on August 6th? Was this just a Bushism or something specific?

What "event" do you think he's referring to?

I thought the attack by Georgia was on the night of the 7th to the 8th.

.

Probably the South Osetian militia shelling parts of Georgia which provoked them into attacking the seperatists.

Lavrov just said that Saakashvili should step down as a condition for stopping military operations.

''Peace keeping activties''
''genocide''

Cut the crap

They just want to see a regime change in Georgia, they want to control the only non-Russian controlled oil pipeline to the west and they want to test the West.

Originally posted by wutone
Dang the door to an Iran strike seems more open than ever.

If you say so.

Russia claims that they are defending their South Ossetian "little brothers" from the aggressor Georgia and their 7 combat aircraft. In response the Russians are on the verge of, and justifying the overthrow of the Georgian government.

But the Georgian Government did help by actually attacking a breakaway republic, right? How much more right does Russia have to crush the Georgian government for having the audacity to suddenly have a problem with the independence of breakaway republics? If it's good for the goose? I don't want to excuse the actions of the Russians entirely but it just seems silly that the Georgian leader ( and the western press) is defending one breakaway republic who attacked another breakaway republic from the actions of their 'big brother' who didn't have to allow either any independence.

Either way i am FOR independent action of national groupings so Georgia should respect SO claims as much as Russia respected theirs.

This is almost the same as the U.S. defending their Israeli "little brothers" from the terrorist attacks by the Iranians and their proxies.

What Iranian terrorist attacks on Israel by proxies? How much more defense does Israel need? Have they not proved able to fight their own battle's given sufficient weapons and resources to do so?

The U.S. is also defending the "little brother" Iraqi government form the Iranian supported Shiite militias (even though most Iraq is Shiite).

Sure , absolutely.

This whole Russian attack just sets a precedent for the U.S. and Israel to attempt a devastating air-strike on Iran and a decapitation attack on the Iranian leadership.

Since when did the US national security people need a pretext that seems even partly legitimate to anyone but the most completely indoctrinated? WOMD? Iraq?

If Russia can attack a puny country that didn't actually attack them directly or indirectly, why can't Israel or the U.S.?

Because that puny country attacked a even punier country that has Russian citizens? I mean wouldn't it just be possible for the US to give citizenship to a few hundred thousands Israeli's to make the whole thing proper and legitimate? Wouldn't that just solve the problem of legitimacy like it did for the Russians in this case? Did Iraq kill a dozen American peace keepers and how many of them were not in fighter bombers 'keeping the peace' by destroying who they deemed not 'peaceful' enough?

No need to make funny claims about WMD's, Oklahoma City terror links, or anthrax letters this time around, just say "If Russia can do it, so can we."

Only Russian actions have some legal standing ( go look) but the same can not be said for the US actions recently or even before that. There is NO , NON, way in which the Georgian leadership thought they were going to be alone in this and that more than speaks volumes in my mind as to who they believe must be backing them in their territorial ambitions. To suggest that a political animal ( no disrespect intended) such as Saakashvili would take this step without assurances from 'on high up' just seems quite improbable to me.

Saakashvili graduated from the School of International Law of the Kiev State University (Ukraine) in 1992. He briefly worked as a human rights officer for the interim State Council of Georgia following the overthrow of President Zviad Gamsakhurdia before receiving a fellowship from the United States State Department (via the Edmund S. Muskie/FREEDOM Support Act (FSA) Graduate Fellowship Program).

He received an LLM from Columbia Law School in 1994 and Doctor of Laws degree from The George Washington University Law School the following year. In 1995, he also received a diploma from the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France.

en.wikipedia.org...

From his public record he doesn't seem like the worse type either and but it would by no means be the first time that a generally democratically' elected official turned out to be working for others than those who voted for them.

Stellar