Originally posted by AlexG141989
I dont have a problem with people who believe in God, just when they claim that they can prove that he indeed does exist. Proving the existance of God cannot be done, there is a reason it is called faith. It is called faith because there is no factual evidence that points to it being a fact. That is why you have to have faith that he exists, you dont really KNOW that he exists, but you have faith that he does... I myself am an atheist, and have seen so many ridiculous posts by theists, who say they can "prove" the existance of "God using logic & critical thinking". We'll that particular thread had everything but logic & critical thinking, & the threadstarter ended up proving absolutely nothing. In another thread there was a theist who was trying to make the claim that the universe was created around human rules made so by God. I stopped reading his post after that, and as I expected his claim was quickly refuted by another poster.

later

What a shame. A Nirvana fan with such clouded view.
What my problem was with atheists is that they don't, and won't embrace a different concept of reality besides there own.
This is how people don't grow.

I'm not saying Christianity is great, nor Catholicism. Or any other text that declares it is 'the way'. No one answer is ever the answer.

Yet I am quite skilled in the Occult, and in saying that, to all the misinformed minds; it has nothing to do with the 'Devil'.
God is everything and he is nothing. We are all pieces of him, and he is pieces of us. Keeping in mind, I am not talking about any one God in particular, as there is no 'one' God. In the bible that they translated the Christian bible into, it wasn't 'God'. It was 'the Gods'. They molded these Gods into one person for there 'truth', and that's only the start of the many false doctrines to occur through out the book. The universe being made by human rules is completely misinformed. Who God really is, is the source. Everything. But most of all, he/she stands for unconditional love. People usually cannot comprehend that. And you, and many other people probably won't, reading this. But when you die, everything will be explained. You can learn then

So since we are so much more vastly superior to animals why are we visible to them?

first of all, what makes you think you're not an animal?

second of all, animals are good people. as far as i know chickens have never enslaved an entire species and farmed them for 10,000 years just because it tastes good when fried.

that kinda talk pisses me off. if you're so much better than an animal then go drink some stream water and see how long it takes you to sh*t yourself to death.

vastly superior? you're out of your tree, choking on your own foreskin, slipping on your own trail of viagra laced semen.

Originally posted by botiemaster
If you cannot fathom that everything you see around you including the stars above all must have had a beginning therefor a creator since logic and science dictates everything must have a beginning and cannot just poof magically into existance, then you are a lost cause to try to convince. All the proof you need is just about anything you look at. Looking at yourself is proof enough.

But some people rather believe we formed from monkeys over millions of years, it was entirely chance that life is as perfect as it is and as complicated as it is, and that the universe just magically poofed into existance. Some cases people are more accepting to aliens creating us, but God? Oh no, that's far fetched. It's every bit as far fetched as atheists claim God is. It's faith on both accounts, period. The question is who is right. I rather believe a higher power created everything than accepting, "there is no creator, and we just don't know how everything came into being. We're still working on it to learn" Make no mistake. You cannot prove your side anymore than we can. But we certainly have the edge and always will.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm just sorry for people who can't fathom why a God wouldn't make his self known 24/7/365 in broad daylight. Throw the bible at them to explain it to them and it's "just stories, not proof." He gave us the freedom of choice. To be among us is to not give us much choice. It is because of giving us choice that you have the freedom of choosing to believe or not believe. In your mind, if you're truly open to accepting there is a god, would you not want the freedom of choice over no choice? Would you want a dictator for a God?

Of course everything had to have a beginning. We dont exactly yet know how the universe came into bieng. But the same way that you dont want to accept "oh we dont know yet" as the answer. I find it pretty darn hard to accept that some dude in the sky did everything. Looking at myself is not proof of god. Everything I look at is proof of the remnants of a supernova so please stop with that ridiculous argument lol.If you wanna go that route though then what created God??? supposedly he always was and always will be right??? Doesn't that strike as a little ridiculous???

"But some people rather believe we formed from monkeys over millions of years, it was entirely chance that life is as perfect as it is and as complicated as it is, and that the universe just magically poofed into existance."

how do you know life is perfect??? It's perfect to you and me because this is what we have always known. I don't think I can really explain this right, because I cannot form a clear picture of what I want to say, even though I have an idea of what it is. We'll when I can finally gather the words I will come back to this

"Some cases people are more accepting to aliens creating us, but God? Oh no, that's far fetched. It's every bit as far fetched as atheists claim God is. It's faith on both accounts, period."

Hey man theres a HUGE certainty of there being other life forms out there, probably more intelligent life forms that are millions of years ahead of us. BUT there is no certainty on God. So I feel pretty comfortable ruling him out as the cause of anything in this universe, at least until one of you theists can prove he exists.

"rather believe a higher power created everything than accepting, "there is no creator, and we just don't know how everything came into being. We're still working on it to learn" Make no mistake. You cannot prove your side anymore than we can. But we certainly have the edge and always will."

Then I feel sorry for you, because you would much rather turn your back on the people who are honest and tell you that they're wrong but are working on it to gain a higher level of knowledge. You turn your back on them and side with the folk who are too scared of anything that threatens their faith. You side with the people who say "This is it, this is what happened, no if's and's, or but's about it. obey him or go to hell... not to mention all the filthy child molesters it produces, and to top it off, a guy who helped in trying to cover up these abuses is the pope, and billions of people worship this dude, we'll what do ya know???

we can't prove our side anymore than you can prove yours??? well let me put it this way. Science is on going, it progresses. The more it progresses the higher level of knowledge we attain. We will keep going, we will make mistakes along the way but get past them. Religion on the other hand will stay the same. It will not change, it will not progress it will just be plain old religion, and eventually, as we progress, the christian god, or allah or any other modern god will be seen in the same light as the gods that the ancient egyptians believed in... They will be memories of a time that the human race was less advanced and more primitve. So you wont always have the upper edge, but then again when did you ever have the upper edge??? lol

Originally posted by NightDweller

Originally posted by AlexG141989
I dont have a problem with people who believe in God, just when they claim that they can prove that he indeed does exist. Proving the existance of God cannot be done, there is a reason it is called faith. It is called faith because there is no factual evidence that points to it being a fact. That is why you have to have faith that he exists, you dont really KNOW that he exists, but you have faith that he does... I myself am an atheist, and have seen so many ridiculous posts by theists, who say they can "prove" the existance of "God using logic & critical thinking". We'll that particular thread had everything but logic & critical thinking, & the threadstarter ended up proving absolutely nothing. In another thread there was a theist who was trying to make the claim that the universe was created around human rules made so by God. I stopped reading his post after that, and as I expected his claim was quickly refuted by another poster.

later

What a shame. A Nirvana fan with such clouded view.
What my problem was with atheists is that they don't, and won't embrace a different concept of reality besides there own.
This is how people don't grow.

I'm not saying Christianity is great, nor Catholicism. Or any other text that declares it is 'the way'. No one answer is ever the answer.

Yet I am quite skilled in the Occult, and in saying that, to all the misinformed minds; it has nothing to do with the 'Devil'.
God is everything and he is nothing. We are all pieces of him, and he is pieces of us. Keeping in mind, I am not talking about any one God in particular, as there is no 'one' God. In the bible that they translated the Christian bible into, it wasn't 'God'. It was 'the Gods'. They molded these Gods into one person for there 'truth', and that's only the start of the many false doctrines to occur through out the book. The universe being made by human rules is completely misinformed. Who God really is, is the source. Everything. But most of all, he/she stands for unconditional love. People usually cannot comprehend that. And you, and many other people probably won't, reading this. But when you die, everything will be explained. You can learn then

clouded view??? I wont embrace a point a view that doesn't agree with my own??? Man, at least know about what your talking about before you comment. I say that because I had 18 years of my life wasted blindly believing in god. I'm 19 now and my view has never been clearer. When I was young and saw disadvantaged people, I'd wonder why god didn't help them, but he always seemed to have time for those who are already doing pretty good. Ever since I abandoned religion I've seen clearer than I ever had before. And believe me I've grown alot more in the short time I've been an atheist than I did all the 18 years as a believer

when you find god, you'll laugh at how the old you thought

[edit on 8-8-2008 by Reddupo]

Originally posted by AlexG141989
clouded view??? I wont embrace a point a view that doesn't agree with my own??? Man, at least know about what your talking about before you comment. I say that because I had 18 years of my life wasted blindly believing in god. I'm 19 now and my view has never been clearer. When I was young and saw disadvantaged people, I'd wonder why god didn't help them, but he always seemed to have time for those who are already doing pretty good. Ever since I abandoned religion I've seen clearer than I ever had before. And believe me I've grown alot more in the short time I've been an atheist than I did all the 18 years as a believer

Wow. Every word you just stated mirrors my own life. I'm also 19 and followed God till I was 18. I just got chills reading that post because that's exactly what happened to me.

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by AlexG141989
clouded view??? I wont embrace a point a view that doesn't agree with my own??? Man, at least know about what your talking about before you comment. I say that because I had 18 years of my life wasted blindly believing in god. I'm 19 now and my view has never been clearer. When I was young and saw disadvantaged people, I'd wonder why god didn't help them, but he always seemed to have time for those who are already doing pretty good. Ever since I abandoned religion I've seen clearer than I ever had before. And believe me I've grown alot more in the short time I've been an atheist than I did all the 18 years as a believer

Wow. Every word you just stated mirrors my own life. I'm also 19 and followed God till I was 18. I just got chills reading that post because that's exactly what happened to me.

wow, crazy coincidence lol

I like this quote from a Stephen Hawking's book.

A scientist was giving a lecture on astronomy. After the lecture, an elderly lady came up and told the scientist that he had it all wrong. 'The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."

The scientist asked "And what is the turtle standing on?"

To which the lady triumphantly replied: "You're very clever, young man, but it's no use -- it's turtles all the way down."

If a God created everything, who created him?
If the answer is "God has always been around", why is that more plausible than a big bang scenario?

Now if I could see and talk to God (which has allegedly happened according to the bible) I'd be a die hard thumper.

But I'd need to experience it for myself to KNOW, (much like a lot of other stories being told on this site). Unfortunately for me that is my reality, and if I would experience it I'd take it as proof to me, but very few people would believe me when I told you all what happened...

Originally posted by AlexG141989

Originally posted by Perplexed
Well I can't get my mind around the perfectly balanced ecosystem we call earth being just an accident...

Prove to the world that the whole earth thing was an accident is the real challenge...

We'll if you think getting your mind around that is hard, try getting ya mind around some big white haired dude in the sky creating the universe in seven days. That shouldn't be any easier to swallow than the big bang theory is.

Where exactly in any holy book is GOD described as a big white-haired dude?

I'd like to know because I have 7 different versions of the Bible, the published/public translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Gnostic Gospels, the Apochrapha, The Tiberten Book of the Dead, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Book of Morman, The Torah, The Qahbahala, The Sepher Yetzirah, the Talmud, The Quron, The Divine Pymander, The teachings of Buddha, the Mahabaharahta (15 volume set) and no where in all these and many more holy books of ancient and obscure religions, that you would no doubt be unaware of, that I have in my personal library is there a GOD that is described as an "old white-haired dude". In fact the way most of them describe diety it would appear to match the concepts that have been postulated by quantum physicist Neils Bohr, David Bohm and quantum mechanic Seth Lloyd. And none of them believe in GOD yet their quantum mechanical concepts of how the universe and reality are shaped from the quantum level into this phenomenal reality that we experience correlates to the ancient descriptions of varous GODs.

I think you need to read some more, grasshopper.

-Euclid

Originally posted by undo

So, only Christ can show you truth! Not man!

that's changing, ever so slightly. for example, during the enlightenment, they claimed to have proven that none of the ancient historical texts were reliable or true, for that matter. but since then, science and archaeology have proven that many of their original reasons for claiming the ancient texts were lacking any validity, were incorrect. the foundation for believing the ancient texts of our ancestors are fables and myths, is crumbling.

And that is a great thing! But with respect, these things will still never prove the exisistance of God!

You see man wants tangible evidence, but God is spirit!

So, it matters not! Its more about proving he doesnt exist, more than proving He does! WHAT IF YOUR WRONG?

Originally posted by euclid

Originally posted by AlexG141989

Originally posted by Perplexed
Well I can't get my mind around the perfectly balanced ecosystem we call earth being just an accident...

Prove to the world that the whole earth thing was an accident is the real challenge...

We'll if you think getting your mind around that is hard, try getting ya mind around some big white haired dude in the sky creating the universe in seven days. That shouldn't be any easier to swallow than the big bang theory is.

Where exactly in any holy book is GOD described as a big white-haired dude?

I'd like to know because I have 7 different versions of the Bible, the published/public translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Gnostic Gospels, the Apochrapha, The Tiberten Book of the Dead, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Book of Morman, The Torah, The Qahbahala, The Sepher Yetzirah, the Talmud, The Quron, The Divine Pymander, The teachings of Buddha, the Mahabaharahta (15 volume set) and no where in all these and many more holy books of ancient and obscure religions, that you would no doubt be unaware of, that I have in my personal library is there a GOD that is described as an "old white-haired dude". In fact the way most of them describe diety it would appear to match the concepts that have been postulated by quantum physicist Neils Bohr, David Bohm and quantum mechanic Seth Lloyd. And none of them believe in GOD yet their quantum mechanical concepts of how the universe and reality are shaped from the quantum level into this phenomenal reality that we experience correlates to the ancient descriptions of varous GODs.

I think you need to read some more, grasshopper.

-Euclid

a big white haired dude, thats the common perception of him... everytime you see a show where they show god its always a old white haired dude...

See, this is the proof!

My fact, proof , faith, given to me by God, is absolute truth! Its spritual and tangible, but to me alone!

But only He could give it! But , it is absolute, when you receive it!

Originally posted by mimer
I like this quote from a Stephen Hawking's book.

A scientist was giving a lecture on astronomy. After the lecture, an elderly lady came up and told the scientist that he had it all wrong. 'The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."

The scientist asked "And what is the turtle standing on?"

To which the lady triumphantly replied: "You're very clever, young man, but it's no use -- it's turtles all the way down."

If a God created everything, who created him?
If the answer is "God has always been around", why is that more plausible than a big bang scenario?

Now if I could see and talk to God (which has allegedly happened according to the bible) I'd be a die hard thumper.

But I'd need to experience it for myself to KNOW, (much like a lot of other stories being told on this site). Unfortunately for me that is my reality, and if I would experience it I'd take it as proof to me, but very few people would believe me when I told you all what happened...

\

That's funny!

The answer to what or who created GOD is in quantum mechanics, information theory and control theory.

Quantum (sub-atomic) particles are self-organizing they are quantum information patterns; the universe/multiverse is comprised of quantum information patterns. It's all a self organizing system and we are part of it and are self-organizing as well.

I suggest reading the following:

for science (they are all quantum physicists and athiest - you'll feel right at home):
Seth Lloyd - Programming the Universe
Roger Penrose - the road to reality
David Bohm - wholeness and the implicate order
David Bohm - the undivided universe
David Bohm - thought as a system
Niels Bohr - philosophy of physics
Niels Bohr - collected works

then to correlate that to religion and philosophy (this stuff may be tough to read but it is worth it.... the correlations are in the metaphores, analogies and allegory the writers used to describe something before physics was discovered):
western philosophy & religion:
the bible - as many versions as you can
the dead sea scrolls
book of enoch
the apochrypha
eastern philosophy:
the teachings of buddha
Tao Teh Ching
Sun Tzu
Lao Tze
hindu mythology

It all correlates. A blind man could see it in a minute after reading all that.....

-Euclid

One does not have to prove the existence of God. The proof is right in front of your eyes! The beautiful world that surrounds us IS God. You humans have not understood the laws of time and space infinity. That is why you waste your time debating the obvious. If there is no God, how did the first ever piece of substance come into existence? There is not one atheist in the world that can answer this question. Unbelievers are cerebral prostitutes and it is pitiful.