Proving The Existance Of God Cannot Be Done, Stop Trying

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


What the heck was all that about? I couldn't make head nor tail of it. And it wasn't for a lack of trying. There seemed to be nothing logical in there at all.

If you are really serious about wanting to know where the All has come from and how, then U2U me and I will show you how all came from Nothing.

Definitely NO big bang!

I think we would all like to know, after isn't that why we're here??? Why not just tell us all here, at the same time so we can all be as wise as you

Humankind make a mystery where there isn't one.

From what I have seen, God is only there where there is mystery, and unknown.

The Word "GOD" is misrepresented by all humankind.

GOD is Not what humankind makes it out to be.....

Oh so the majority of believers are wrong in the interpretation of God??? But how do you know yours is right??? After all you have the same likelyhood of bieng wrong as any other believer, for the simple fact that you believe.

I know you think you can make decisions, but maybe it is only an emulation produced by the story of your life experiences controlled by a program of The True Mind.

so we don't have free will??? is that what you're saying??? What the heck is up with christians man??? make up your minds.

reply to post by donhuangenaro


Because for all those things you mentioned, there is evidence suggesting they exist. There is absolutely no evidence for God to exist.

It's like saying we should strive to prove Santa exists. Where does the insanity end?

First the "Word" God must be understood, in it's True Context, before anything can be argued here!

Humankind is too superstitious in their thoughts...

I must also remind people, that "Science" is also a Religion, but most hide behind the title "Science", but it is still also an academic Religion!

Yes I know you hate me saying this but it is Still True!

The reason why the proof of "The Existence Of God Cannot Be Done" is because The "Word" God is the Most misunderstood word in the world.

Quote from bible " In the beginning was The "Word" and The "Word" was with GOD and The "Word" was God.
And in Him was Life, which is The Light of Man, that Lighteth every man that cometh into the World"...

In the beginning was the Word....

What "Word"?

GOD...

Ah so God is a "Word" and That "Word" is "God"...

G O D,

So God is made of Two things...

A Word and Life... Life being the Light that Lights Man when he comes into the World!

And What is meant by the word World?

Does it mean the Earth, or The Universe, or does it mean the World of God?

But getting back to The "Word".

A Word is made up of Letters in this case G o d....

The roots where this word came from is Not English.

The Root of this word is Not from Hebrew...

The Root of this word is Not from Greek...

But the Word Comes from the ZIONic Language that has been Lost to the World.

But don't let this stop you because we can "Back Engineer" to discover it's True Meaning!

In Israel at this Time Latin was the 1st Language under the Roman empire...

The Second Language used in Israel was Greek...

And the Third Language used by the so called Jews was Hebrew..

We can find the Roots of the Zionic Language in Ionic Greek....

The Zionic Language was a Geometric Language.

So to "Back Engineer" this word we must consider the fonts as it is a geometric language and Not the Translation from one written language to another.

The "G" becomes Gamma in Greek, and as Ionic Greek uses half The Zionic Font the Zionic font is therefore a Square (mad from 2 Gamma)

The "O" becomes an Omega in Greek, and as Ionic Greek uses half The Zionic Font the Zionic font is therefore is a Circle with 4 diagonal lines (each at 45 degrees)

The "D" becomes Delta in Greek, and as Ionic Greek uses half The Zionic Font the Zionic font is therefore a 6 Pointed Star...

Dow superimpose these on top of each other...

The 45 degree Lines of the Zionic Omega extend in a short way from the corners of the square to meet the Circle that is within the boundaries of the Square and the 6 Pointed Star is inside the Circle....

Yes it is The Star of David Housed in a Square with a Circle within The Square.

This is also known as "The House and The Root of David.

Everything has been Created through Geometry, or the Geometric Concepts of Life, or The True Mind...

All was Created by this "Word" through Christ or Life.

The Christ is Not a person or even human like.

The Christ is a Matrix Map as discribed in the Book of Ezekiel.

The "Mind" is in No way, part of a Human Primate as Many Human Primates would have you believe.

There is No such thing as The human Mind!

The Brain is only a Decoder/Encoder Interface between The True Mind and the World you are aware of.

The Life of God is The Light of Man or as it was originally called "Phos" in Greek which means Light or Light from the Sun or light that comes from any luminous body, such as stars, Fire, etc. and in the modern day electric Lights.

So Light is Part of God.

Hmmmm, I guess we have to look very very carefully at what is written, instead of making "God" to be what it isn't, according to our superstitious ways caused by fear and uncertainty...

Friendly regards,

The Matrix Traveller

Wow, This thread really grew over the holiday weekend! And thoughts abound!

I’m sorry I could not contribute…we were traveling to see the family, but OT is back!!!!

Initially, below are some cut and pastes from a prior thread to get things started…as an aside, the posters here are well-informed, opinioned (that’s a good thing!) and obviously of great intellect…I am not trying (primarily) to win an argument…in the short term…although that would be nice…but my real motivation for posting, is the hope that the readers, will review my points, think about them over the course of their life…and should circumstances, move them to be more open…be able to refer back to what I have written. Again I thank you for your passion, as an example Onion Cloud, the man has got some skills, no doubt!! (and I will review your posted-video to me, soon)

My first point, detailed in the next few lines will be emotion-based…and then after the divider lines will be more logic-based…as to OT’s basis for faith.

Prior thread discourse

”…The LORD Jesus Christ is my best friend…

I’ve talked with him every day……..for over 35 yrs......am I delusional?

I believe…

Ever smile, every laugh, every victory…comes from above. (from Him)

You know that feeling of relaxation you get just before going to sleep after a great day? A day full of successes…a day that the world, at least around you, recognized your ability?

That comes from above…

Or that joy you feel with your kids running and laughing in the yard, playing in the sprinkler? Or that business deal that just came through? Or that beautiful purple and orange sunset last night?

Or the hype felt after scoring the winning goal or touchdown? Or that majestic mountain range you looked over in the past?

That comes from above…

About 2000 years ago, a colleague of Jesus named James said,

“Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.”

= = = = =

And now on to the logic based points…

I am not an atheist…because…

1) There is NO moral code of their own…although atheists deny this, they steal from the judeo-christian history when they live moral lives (and many of them do!)

2) I do not have enough FAITH, yes FAITH…to be an atheist. Time and Chance multiplied by Time and Chance….and….drum roll…we complex, organisms called ‘humans’ popped out is completely illogical to me and mathematically impossible.

3) OCCAM’s RAZOR, an accepted philosophical tenant, says the simplest answer is most often the correct one…to me it says….every effect…has a cause…as I look around, all I see is effects…the most logical (to OT at least) is a omnipotent entity could create all this…and it’s much more logical than evolution. (although I’m not one of the fundies who put creationism as a litmus test for salvation)

4) The 2nd LAW of Thermodynamics…”LAW”, not theory…says through time things break down…don’t get better or evolve…again I’m certainly not as smart as many of the posters on this thread…but I’m a practical guy…with common sense I hope.

5) The Author of the ‘Chronicles of Narnia’, CS Lewis, was right… If Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the LORD of the universe, then He was a liar at the best, or a lunatic at worst…I fall on the LORD side.

6) And lastly there is so much I grabble with in the words of the Apostle Paul, a real historical figure, verified…who spoke to the ancient Romans and said…”For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.
…”by what he made”….effects
…so people are WITHOUT excuse”…scary words I know.

OT out!

PS: The New Testament says…”every knee will bow…and every tongue confess …that JESUS is LORD”…..eventually…better do it now…….voluntarily….than wait…and be……….forced to do it!

PSS: Just a quick note of thanks to the ATS founders to give us all an opportunity to debate this stuff…!

PSS: I welcome, your responses, ATS-ers!

reply to post by OldThinker


Thanks for trying to use logic rather than belief to make your point. I'm going to skip the emotional points you make (because they could be attributed to anything other than God), and move to the logical points you made. I'm going to debunk those points, and if I am wrong, then you can reply back and tell me where I am wrong, but I highly doubt I am.

Originally posted by OldThinker
1) There is NO moral code of their own…although atheists deny this, they steal from the judeo-christian history when they live moral lives (and many of them do!)

As I've said many times before, my moral code is greater since I've become an atheist. It was mainly my moral code that drove me out of Christianity, as I could not follow a God that would create us only for a portion of us to spend eternity in Hell. Also, I'm nicer than most Christians, and I know a lot of atheists that are aswell.

Originally posted by OldThinker
2) I do not have enough FAITH, yes FAITH…to be an atheist. Time and Chance multiplied by Time and Chance….and….drum roll…we complex, organisms called ‘humans’ popped out is completely illogical to me and mathematically impossible.

At first glance, it is a long shot. Let's look at it closer though. It has been estimated that there are 500 billion galaxies. As technology grows, we find more and more galaxies, and learn how truly huge our universe is. If I had a computer give a random number between 1 and 500 billion, and the outcome was 1, you would say that the odds of it being 1 are extremely low. You are correct, however, the odds of it being any number are extremely low. Given how big our universe is, is it really so hard to believe that atleast 1 planet would support life? Infact, it would be more logical to say that millions of planets support life than to say that 1 planet supports life.

Also, if you don't buy any of that, I could use another argument. You say that we are complex and therefor could not have come into existence on our own, yet you would say that God is INFINITELY more complex than us. So why is it more probable (to you) for an infinitely complex God to come into existence, and not us?

Originally posted by OldThinker
3) OCCAM’s RAZOR, an accepted philosophical tenant, says the simplest answer is most often the correct one…to me it says….every effect…has a cause…as I look around, all I see is effects…the most logical (to OT at least) is a omnipotent entity could create all this…and it’s much more logical than evolution. (although I’m not one of the fundies who put creationism as a litmus test for salvation)

Even if you believe that a creator is much more logical than evolution, how do we know which creator? Why not Zeus? Why not the Flying Spaghetti Monster ?

Originally posted by OldThinker
4) The 2nd LAW of Thermodynamics…”LAW”, not theory…says through time things break down…don’t get better or evolve…again I’m certainly not as smart as many of the posters on this thread…but I’m a practical guy…with common sense I hope.

I've heard this argument before. It's from a misunderstanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states "No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body." This refers to a transfer of energy and has nothing to do with evolution. Goto www.talkorigins.org... for more info.

Originally posted by OldThinker
5) The Author of the ‘Chronicles of Narnia’, CS Lewis, was right… If Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the LORD of the universe, then He was a liar at the best, or a lunatic at worst…I fall on the LORD side.

Or he never existed. www.caesarsmessiah.com... .
Combine that with the fact that there is no historical record of Jesus, and you've got yourself one hell of a conspiracy which has lasted longer than it should have.

Originally posted by OldThinker
6) And lastly there is so much I grabble with in the words of the Apostle Paul, a real historical figure, verified…who spoke to the ancient Romans and said…”For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.
…”by what he made”….effects
…so people are WITHOUT excuse”…scary words I know.

Sorry, I don't see why you put this in the logical section. Am I missing something?

reply to post by TruthParadox


TruthParadox,

Hi, I'm OT! Hope you are having a great day!!

Been watching the RNC...very interesting stuff, how's your night?

Thank you for the response...it's pretty late where I live, got a big day tomorrow...hope you don't mind, if I depart for a day or so...and I'll get back with you? Thank you so much for replying...

OT

PS: The emotional stuff you choose to ignore, is the stuff that lingers, my brother...hard to forget...after life does what it does to us...I'll be here tomorrow though!

Yo OT ... glad you had a good holiday

BTW, the relationship that you have with Jesus is something that I personally would never question. Your personal experiences can never be questioned by others.

In fact I think that the OP topic is moot in the face of this.

As faith based beliefs are just that, faith based, there is no reason to prove anything for the belief to be effective on a personal level.

But I believe that faith based belief systems should be left at the personal level only.

There should not be any interference with society at all.

Originally posted by OldThinker

And now on to the logic based points…

I am not an atheist…because…

1) There is NO moral code of their own…although atheists deny this, they steal from the judeo-christian history when they live moral lives (and many of them do!)

I would argue that moral codes predate the Judeo-Christian faith. Therefore the Judeo-Christian derived their moral code from the societies and cultures around them.

I would argue that moral codes are derived from the human survival instinct. Without these codes humans would have not survived to civilisation levels seen during time of Jesus.

I would also argue that the Judeo-Christian faith does not have a monopoly on the moral code that it promotes.

"Every religion emphasizes human improvement, love, respect for others, sharing other people's suffering. On these lines every religion had more or less the same viewpoint and the same goal." The Dalai Lama.

2) I do not have enough FAITH, yes FAITH…to be an atheist. Time and Chance multiplied by Time and Chance….and….drum roll…we complex, organisms called ‘humans’ popped out is completely illogical to me and mathematically impossible.

The mathematical chance of life occurring in this universe and humans evolving is, obviously 1 ... because it happened. There needs to be no faith when it comes to certainty.

The argument that everything is so finely balanced that it must be intelligently designed is very narrow and easily argued against. It is like saying "If that lemon was an orange it would not be a lemon"

The logic - Humans use intelligence to create complex things. The universe is complex. Therefore the universe must have been created by intelligence - is simply begging the question ... and very narrow.

How can it be argued that another type of life form would not evolve in a universe with different universal conditions? Maybe it would not be life as we know it but it would be life.

The universe was not created to fit life. Life evolved to fit the universe.

3) OCCAM’s RAZOR, an accepted philosophical tenant, says the simplest answer is most often the correct one…to me it says….every effect…has a cause…as I look around, all I see is effects…the most logical (to OT at least) is a omnipotent entity could create all this…and it’s much more logical than evolution. (although I’m not one of the fundies who put creationism as a litmus test for salvation)

Occam's razor can be used as an argument by both sides of this debate. So it's best to stay away from that one.

What about the possibility that an omnipotent being uses evolution as it's creative tool?

In the face of evidence this may be the simplest answer!

4) The 2nd LAW of Thermodynamics…”LAW”, not theory…says through time things break down…don’t get better or evolve…again I’m certainly not as smart as many of the posters on this thread…but I’m a practical guy…with common sense I hope.

reation Scientists often do not quote the full text of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. All processes do not exhibit a tendency towards decay and disintegration. It is only the overall entropy (disorder) of the universe which increases. "This means that some parts of a system may indeed become more orderly and complex so long as this increase in order is balanced by an equal or greater decrease in order elsewhere. This, of course, is exactly what living things do -- as they grow and evolve they use enormous amounts of energy (usually in the form of food), producing a thermodynamic balance in the system as a whole. The second law no more forbids evolution than it forbids a tiny seed from growing into a larger, more complex tree. Both processes require energy to proceed, and both are in perfect accordance with the laws of thermodynamics."

5) The Author of the ‘Chronicles of Narnia’, CS Lewis, was right… If Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the LORD of the universe, then He was a liar at the best, or a lunatic at worst…I fall on the LORD side.

Why can't Jesus just be a guy, with some new and very groovy ideas about the way we should treat each other, that was often misquoted and misunderstood? CS Lewis is very black and white in this argument.

6) And lastly there is so much I grabble with in the words of the Apostle Paul, a real historical figure, verified…who spoke to the ancient Romans and said…”For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.

I cannot say if Paul said this or not ... regardless, it doesn't make it a factual statement. You choose to believe this.

PS: The New Testament says…”every knee will bow…and every tongue confess …that JESUS is LORD”…..eventually…better do it now…….voluntarily….than wait…and be……….forced to do it!

The NT could very well be wrong.

Cheers OT!

reply to post by OldThinker


Hey OT ... I think you just got a double wammy!

I hope that you like our responses ... Don't stay up too late!

It has been an interesting discussion but at the end of the day the atheists will lose because they cannot conclusively prove that God does not exist! Therefore the position of an atheist is one of pure stupidity! The atheist cannot even tell us how the first piece of matter came to be or what life energy is. CloudedOnions offered pseudo-science in a vain effort to convince all and sundry that there is a mechanism to cause the formation of something from nothing but then I woke him from his slumber and reminded him that some supernatural force must have caused this phenomena. CloudedOnions, TruthParadox and Dave420 form a triad of deluded atheists who cannot reason. The works of Christ are proof enough of God's existence. Furthermore there wasn't enough time for myth or legend to develop. Christ's contemporaries were still alive when the gospels were written. They did not refute the gospels.
Atheists have nothing to offer but cerebral wanderings and the stone cold grave! We can still develop and improve science while believing in God. Just because we have discovered quantum mechanics (and look how many thousands of years that took...humanity is so primitive but bathes itself in rivers of vanity) let us not give God the f-off sign. We will never attain parity with God. Science will never explain how matter came to be. Science cannot replace God. This is the atheists ultimate deception. Atheists teachings of human relationships have not surpassed Christ's. Who does an atheist turn to when science fails? People be smart. Embrace science and embrace Yahweh God even more tightly. Science is in fact God's greatest invention for He gave us the cerebral hemispheres with which to interpret it!!

reply to post by Chief O


So you also believe in little pink unicorns, celestial teapots, that Elvis lives under the sea in a cave, and that there is a planet outside our solar system made entirely of sandwiches. I can't prove any of those exist, so by your logic you must believe in them. You must also believe in every other god any other religion has put forward, as there is as much evidence for all of them.

No, it is up to believers to demonstrate God exists, not for us atheists to disprove it. The burden of proof lies with the believers, not atheists. We are simply asking you for evidence supporting that which you claim, and why we should believe you over all the other religious people out there.

Don't you realise how utterly ridiculous you sound? We're discussing science, and you start banging on about some mythical Jewish Zombie like he has any bearing on what we're talking about. You do realise there were dozens of self-proclaimed messiahs in the region at the same time as Jesus, right? And that Jesus' story has been told for centuries before Jesus's life, attributed to scores of other people? That if God wrote the bible he's a ridiculously bad story-teller, and therefore not infallible?

Don't talk to us about evidence when you gleefully ignore evidence that damns your religion. Your hypocrisy is disgusting.

I hope you're joking. I really do.

reply to post by Chief O


No no no! You have me all wrong buddy. You're right, none of this could have come on it's own. There MUST be a creator. This is why I am a member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
You are insinuating that your God is better than mine? How can you state such blasphemous things, not even knowing a thing about my god?
The Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything with his noodley appendage. Who are you to question his will? Why do you deny such obviouse truths? When you die, you will be burned alive in the lake of burning spaghetti sauce for your lack of belief. You spit in his face, even though he wraps his noodley appendage around you in love. Disgusting. You (yes you!) will be one of the meatballs in his most high's spaghetti sauce. Take care what you say, he gets very offended when people deny the obvious truth of an invisible deity.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Ramen, brother, Ramen.

Sauce be upon you.

I guess we all, just have to be very patient, and experience the day, we have all our worldly things taken from us, as we own Nothing in this world, and are left with the only thing that doesn't Die which is Life....

All the Bull Sh... then stops, and only The Truth remains Eternally...

Who are Human Primates going to argue with then?

The ground and a bed of worms, as Life, Life is Life, and Death is Death.

Death is Not Life and Life is Not Death...

The human form has never lived at all, except by the breath (air) of Life But Life is eternal and Humankind come to their end!

The Breath of Life is Not Living, but only the Breath and Not Life, but the Breath has been made by Life.

The arguments about religions such as Science, Theology and Philosophy, go down with the human primate, it is just humankind that can Not understand the world.

When you Die, "what you expect will Happen, won't Happen, and what you don't expect will Happen, shall happen".....

Friendly Regards,

The Matrix Traveller...





[edit on 3-9-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

[edit on 4-9-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

TruthParadox you have proved yourself to be a clown. I suggest you apply for work in a circus!
Dave420 you are a LIAR! Jesus was, is and will be forever. He is a historical figure. He wisely appointed a council, an inner caucus by name of the apostles, to witness His ministry at first hand and to preach the everlasting gospel so that even if liars like yourself attempted to refute His existence, the foundations would be too strong to shake. You are an insignificant being and you have nothing to offer. Conversely Jesus' teachings have inspired millions for two thousand years! Where all else has failed Jesus has helped the broken hearted through their lowest hour. Long live the Christ!
You, on the other hand, have done nothing for the masses apart from ridicule a man who laid down His life for us. You are a disgrace!
Atheists have not been able to prove with 100% certainty that God does not exist. Theists have the prophets who proved God by the signs and wonders they performed. Furthermore the stupid atheist cannot explain how matter came to exist. Therefore being an atheist is ridiculous!

reply to post by Horza


You said, "Yo OT ... glad you had a good holiday

BTW, the relationship that you have with Jesus is something that I personally would never question. Your personal experiences can never be questioned by others."

Thank you for that very very appropriate, mature response!

OT out

Originally posted by dave420
Ramen, brother, Ramen.

Sauce be upon you.

Sauce be upon you to. And may his noodley appendage touch you in ways you have never been touched.

Ramen.

Originally posted by Chief O
TruthParadox you have proved yourself to be a clown. I suggest you apply for work in a circus!

How am I a clown? It is you who denies the obvious existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. May the most high have mercy on your soul with his noodley appendage. Why do you think spaghetti exists? It exists as a yearning to know our creator, we subconsiously have been trying to create him through spaghetti. But alas (ALAS I SAY!), no longer do we have to eat spaghetti in hopes of knowing the most high and his variations of sauce. This day (this day, mind you), His Most High looks down upon you with disgust for ignoring such obvious truths.

Originally posted by Chief O
Dave420 you are a LIAR! ... You are an insignificant being and you have nothing to offer.

Your own tongue shows your foul mind. For none of The Most High's creation is insignifant. We all have a place in the kingdom of spaghetti. It is YOU who chooses to ignore facts.

Originally posted by Chief O
Atheists have not been able to prove with 100% certainty that God does not exist. Theists have the prophets who proved God by the signs and wonders they performed. Furthermore the stupid atheist cannot explain how matter came to exist. Therefore being an atheist is ridiculous!

It is YOU who can not prove with 100% certainty that The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. Through signs, wonders, and a variation of sauces, we have proven to the world time and time again of His Noodly existence.
You call me a clown, but at least I am not a hypocrite. What makes your God better than mine? I'd be willing to bet 2 meatballs that my god created your god, sir.

reply to post by TruthParadox


TP, Love your salutation/signature...just noticed it...very creative!!!!

OT

Originally posted by Horza
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Hey OT ... I think you just got a double wammy!

I hope that you like our responses ... Don't stay up too late!

TruthParadox and Horza,

You two aren't ganging up/pickin' on OT are you??????

Misery loves company, I guess...just a joke

Thx for the debate guys!

OT

Would someone please mop this floor before we all slip on their saliva
Your all drooling like satan does
Stop it

What happened to the person who lived in that shell ?
Why is it that only your MIND is working and your HEART IS NOT ?






[edit on 3-9-2008 by Simplynoone]