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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:23 PM by NOTurTypical
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Originally posted by Brothers
The unitarian universalist church is a good start if you want your children to learn about all religions. I don't distingust one from the other but
take the best of all that is offered and teach that. That is my idea of a good religion.
The same religion the antichrist will push....
Good idea.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:26 PM by NOTurTypical
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Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by NOTurTypical
It screams to me revisionist editing.
I will repeat, though, I do not want to derail the thread by debating the Bible's historical legitimacy.
In this context it doesn't matter if it's actually true or not, because we still have a tangible and substantial amount of influence from those who
think it is. What screams of revisionist editing?
I hope you don't mean the probability study, because the prophecies they used were ones Jesus couldn't have chose to do himself. I.E. birthplace.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:30 PM by NOTurTypical
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Originally posted by justamomma
Originally posted by NOTurTypical"Dangerous " how exactly? I feel protected by God's perfect wisdom. I feel protected by his hands.
I feel protected by his guardian angels. I have such joy when I need something, pray for it, and receive it. My walk with God is a personal one,
and it is great. I'd NEVER go back to trying to figure out life myself, that was when things were difficult. Never felt more free actually.
I am not saying that it would apply to you necessarily, but when you place the controls of your life into someone/things else's hand, you are still
responsible for what happens.
To expect someone that you don't know really exists (other than your "feelings" of course) to "save" you, typically you are doing little to save
yourself.
Now, don't get me wrong. The philosophies that were taught by this man in the bible are beautiful and certainly something that I do my best to
fashion my life after, but I don't believe that putting my faith into him as god and saviour is wise.
I know the feelings to which you speak of...... I experience them even to this day and have revelations of certain things, but I don't credit it to a
man that may or may not have existed thousands of years ago.
I credit them to the one who Created me....... the one who I am a part of.
I just "worry" that a lot of ppl could be very disappointed when/if they realize they have put their hope in an illusion (deception) that will/could
evaporate in an instant leaving them feeling abandoned and hopeless.
People base their belief in someone, a man, and it can set them up for a world of disappointment. I believe in the spirit of jesus just as I believe
in the spirit of ghandi. It is there to point the way, but they, as men, were NOT The Way.
The feelings that you experience could be nothing more than power of suggestion or feelings that come bc what is being taught through this man was
Truth. It doesn't mean you are having some magical, mystical experience.
If it gives you hope, then by all means. It is your life and you have the choice to place your hope outside of what you have been given by the
Creator. These are just my thoughts on it. 
[edit on 7-8-2008 by justamomma]
This "man" also gave me prophecies. They all have come perfectly true. That is omnipotence. God also gave them to Daniel, that is omnipotence.
Trust but verify, and He gives us ways to verify. You only have to search for knowledge. What really drew me to the lord is I began to study
Biblical prophecy, I soon realized that the only source for this knowledge couldn't have been a mortal man.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:30 PM by nina.
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I can't speak for everyone of course, but I was raised in a "non-religious household" (if you want to use that label) and I ended up just fine
(never got into trouble, was in the top portion of my class, and so on, about as far away from a traditional juvenile terror as you can get).
For the record, my parents both believe in a higher power and all that stuff, but they always stressed that they would never want to push religion on
us and wanted us to come up with our own conclusions and beliefs when the time was right. I have to say that as a child, I really appreciated the fact
that nothing like that was ever forced on me. I never felt pressured growing up and being able to develop my own beliefs has allowed me to become an
extremely open-minded and accepting individual. I really am thankful for that, especially when I've witnessed third graders insist fervently that
fellow students who didn't attend church on a regular basis were "going to hell." 
Although my brother and I never did go to church as children, we were definitely brought up with a set of morals (never to lie, cheat, do drugs, and
all that stuff) and just followed them on our own. We never felt pressured to follow any sort of religious belief, and I honestly appreciate my
parents deeply for never forcing anything on us. I feel truly lucky to have them, I always have, and I personally think it's a bit unfair for people
to say it's some sort of "cop-out" when parents do not make their children go to church. Parents can teach morality to their children without
making them follow their own religious beliefs (hey, it worked for my parents).
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:35 PM by asmeone2
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
That's a nice collection of data, but doesn't inherantly prove that a lack of religion caused it.
Just to pick on the SAT one for example. At its inception it was taken mostly by privately schooled, college-bound students, now it's taken by almost
every student, period. That alone is going to skew the data, plus the fact that the test itself has changed.
1963 also around the time when America's descent into a welfare state started--it's a bit off topic but I think that's the underlying cause for a
lot of the problems stated.
And of course population has increased exponentially since 1963, so there's going to be more crime, period.
A lack of morals might be one factor in the breakdown, but it isn't the only one.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:38 PM by justamomma
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
But you weren't there when the supposed books were written. You also have no proof that a man named Jesus really was born under the credentials laid
out by the "prophet" daniel other than the bible, which was written by man. How are you so sure things weren't manipulated?
I am not coming at your beliefs in a mean spirited way. This is something that I still battle even to this day. If I am wrong, that probably doesn't
bode well for me, now does it? But I just can't help but rationally look at this and realize that I have no proof that things happened as I am told
they did.
I don't think a Creator would give me intelligence and then expect me to choose out of the many different religions offered to us and if I choose
wrong there will be a place in hell for me.
The only thing that makes intellectual sense to me is that we are here to learn from our experiences. Cause and effect. All else seems to deter one
from truly experiencing and learning.
Religious teachings remind me of games. Choose the right one or you lose.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:40 PM by shauny
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its this "BELIEVE A STORY...OR GO TO HELL" attitude that really bothers me about the whole "god" thing.
before i even think about being interested, i cant get past this "im going to live forever, you will burn eternally"
i mean come on, DOES THAT SOUND APPEALING ?
lets all jump on board, sounds swell.
My point being, thats the part for me, that makes me see it for what i believe it to be, Control through fear.
dont get me wrong, i believe if we ALL believed in god, the world would be a great place, no murder, crime, etc, etc. kinda be like utopia wouldnt it
?
i can clearly see both sides, i just dont like being told (often) that if i dont believe i will go to hell.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:43 PM by asmeone2
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reply to post by shauny
It took me so long to get past the 'go to Hell' fear, but it was in the end one of the most liberating things.
I don't want to raise my children by telling them they aren't ever going to be good enough.
I want them to grow up knwing that they will be exactly as good as they choose to be.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:48 PM by justamomma
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Originally posted by asmeone2I want them to grow up knwing that they will be exactly as good as they choose to be.
This is precisely how I feel about it. This seems to be the only sure fire way to know that you are raising your children correctly. There doesn't
have to be guessing games and fear involved. It is what it is, you are who you are, and they are who they are.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:52 PM by drfractal
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funny, in my house, consisting of two adults, an 8-year old and a 6-year old, a dominant topic of conversation is "who's more real, god or aliens".
at the moment, our grey brethren are winning.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 10:53 PM by asmeone2
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This is precisely how I feel about it. This seems to be the only sure fire way to know that you are raising your children correctly. There doesn't
have to be guessing games and fear involved. It is what it is, you are who you are, and they are who they are.
Exactly.
One thing that I never understood about the Christian perspective is the belief that if you do something good, it's only because Jesus helped you,
and if you did bad, it's becasue the Devil tempted you.
Those two figures could both be on your shoulders, but in the end it's the guy with the shoulders that chooses who to listen to.
It's very strange because supposedly works don't matter after you have faith.. yet every Christian I meet seems to be concerned with the works.
But, oh well, I suppose thinking that raises too many other questions.
In the words of some devil-inspired musicians:
There ain't no use in crying. Cause it will only, only drive you mad
Does it hurt to hear them lying? Was this the only world you had?
[edit on 7-8-2008 by asmeone2]
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:05 PM by NOTurTypical
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Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by NOTurTypical
That's a nice collection of data, but doesn't inherantly prove that a lack of religion caused it.
Just to pick on the SAT one for example. At its inception it was taken mostly by privately schooled, college-bound students, now it's taken by almost
every student, period. That alone is going to skew the data, plus the fact that the test itself has changed.
1963 also around the time when America's descent into a welfare state started--it's a bit off topic but I think that's the underlying cause for a
lot of the problems stated.
And of course population has increased exponentially since 1963, so there's going to be more crime, period.
A lack of morals might be one factor in the breakdown, but it isn't the only one. Yeah, it's only one. I also never said it was absolute
either. It was a major factor.
Another big problem is when the TV was invented. Before that parents spent an average of 7 hours per day with their children of "quality" time.
When the TV was invented it dropped to 45 minutes per day.
Now Hollywood "raises" our kids. Does anyone think they push strong morals?
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:13 PM by NOTurTypical
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Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by NOTurTypical
But you weren't there when the supposed books were written. You also have no proof that a man named Jesus really was born under the credentials laid
out by the "prophet" daniel other than the bible, which was written by man. How are you so sure things weren't manipulated?
I am not coming at your beliefs in a mean spirited way. This is something that I still battle even to this day. If I am wrong, that probably doesn't
bode well for me, now does it? But I just can't help but rationally look at this and realize that I have no proof that things happened as I am told
they did.
I don't think a Creator would give me intelligence and then expect me to choose out of the many different religions offered to us and if I choose
wrong there will be a place in hell for me.
The only thing that makes intellectual sense to me is that we are here to learn from our experiences. Cause and effect. All else seems to deter one
from truly experiencing and learning.
Religious teachings remind me of games. Choose the right one or you lose.
If I were "there" and had "proof" then I also would have ZERO "faith". So instead I read the testimony of the men who were actually
there.
One either thinks all these men are liars or one can assume they wrote the books inspired by God. I lose NOTHING by dying in faith for naught. I
lose my soul for not having faith that they told the truth. If I'm led by God to tell the truth now why shouldn't I believe they didn't feel the
exact same way.
Remember something, these apostles were hunted down constantly by everyone from the Romans to the Pharisees trying to kill them. Do you honestly
think they would go through that for a conspiracy they thought up?? I sure don't. The only thing that would have led them to endure all that they
did was if they saw the miracles firsthand. They KNEW that Jesus was God, they witnessed it all firsthand and didn't waver an inch in the face of
death.
I can put my faith in that for sure.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:15 PM by asmeone2
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If I were "there" and had "proof" then I also would have ZERO "faith".
You wouldn't need to have faith, because' you'd have seen it with your own eyes.
That actually sounds preferable to me.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:18 PM by NOTurTypical
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Originally posted by asmeone2
If I were "there" and had "proof" then I also would have ZERO "faith".
You wouldn't need to have faith, because' you'd have seen it with your own eyes.
That actually sounds preferable to me.
Those men wrote the Gospels. 
They also didn't admit it was all a lie when they were put to death for what they said.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:18 PM by Finn1916
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Religion is not the only thing in this world that teaches values and respect and morals. You teach your children that simply because you want them to
be moral people(like not stealing or being little vandals) not just because god says you shoudn't, but because decency says you shouldn't.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:20 PM by NOTurTypical
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Originally posted by Finn1916
Religion is not the only thing in this world that teaches values and respect and morals. You teach your children that simply because you want them to
be moral people(like not stealing or being little vandals) not just because god says you shoudn't, but because decency says you shouldn't.
Where do these "morals" come from? Everything you call a "moral" today is found in one of the commandments.
Name one that is not.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:22 PM by asmeone2
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Where do these "morals" come from? Everything you call a "moral" today is found in one of the commandments.
Name one that is not.
Put the lid back down?
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:26 PM by asmeone2
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
There's only anecdotal stories of how the disciples died.
With the possible exception of Steven,(Stephan?) there isn't any transcript of what they were saying at the time.
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reply posted on 7-8-2008 @ 11:28 PM by justamomma
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Originally posted by NOTurTypicalIf I were "there" and had "proof" then I also would have ZERO "faith". So instead I read the
testimony of the men who were actually there.
One either thinks all these men are liars or one can assume they wrote the books inspired by God. I lose NOTHING by dying in faith for naught. I
lose my soul for not having faith that they told the truth. If I'm led by God to tell the truth now why shouldn't I believe they didn't feel the
exact same way.
Remember something, these apostles were hunted down constantly by everyone from the Romans to the Pharisees trying to kill them. Do you honestly
think they would go through that for a conspiracy they thought up?? I sure don't. The only thing that would have led them to endure all that they
did was if they saw the miracles firsthand. They KNEW that Jesus was God, they witnessed it all firsthand and didn't waver an inch in the face of
death.
I can put my faith in that for sure.
Many ppl died for many different types of belief, so that to me isn't proof of anything except that man will give up his most precious gift based on
a "hunch."
And how are you sure they didn't waver? because you were told that?
Hell, I could put my faith in Santa Claus and it doesn't #1. Make the legend based on actual man anymore true and #2. does nothing to "save" me
from myself
Things get twisted and obscured over time and I just don't understand the mindset that ppl have to trust the words of ppl they never met, can't
prove even existed, and control through fear (bc even though you or others may not try to control by fear, the bible certainly sounds like the same
tactics that 'dubbya' uses to control.... get them to fear and you get them to follow).
The idea that we are to be saved by a man who no longer exists (if he even did) is as fantasy based as believing in Santa Claus (who, btw, you would
not argue that the lies being fed to kids about him are based on an actual man but still lies none the less).
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