Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by chise61When it comes down to it you have to raise your children as you see fit, just as your mother raised you as she saw fit. You may want to remind her of that fact.

Very well put You make an excellent point (just remember OP to be respectful when telling her. After all she is your momma and did what she thought was best).

At this point I don't feel the desire to be that blunt, because I think it would only cause conflict.

I would not hesitate to put my foot down if it came to that, though.

Raising kids with religion is putting artificial shackles on them before they are too strong to resist. Furthermore, raising kids with morality is an irrational detriment to their development as well. Allow me to explain: The bitter, nasty fact is that the universe we inhabit is a cold, dark and hostile place. It holds no one above and it pushes no one below. It simply is. It is arbitrary and random in giving death and giving life. It provides pleasure and pain, in random dosages, to any and all. Your existence, and your children’s, is tenuous at best. Teaching them to not take advantage of every opportunity to gain personal profit at every given moment is placing a burden upon their lives.

Human beings like to think that they can somehow influence their future with prayers or moral behavior or good karma. We need to believe we have some sort of control of our destiny because it’s just too terrifying to admit that our very existence is so ephemeral. We like to delude ourselves into believing that, somehow or somewhere, our lives really matter. We like to deceive ourselves with the notion that our actions are of great and lasting import. This keeps us from going mad. The truth is that any one of us can cease to exist within the next moment - for no reason at all. The truth is that all of us will be ground up in the Mills of Time and leave nothing but a tiny red stain and even that will be washed away eventually. But most of us cannot accept that truth. It undermines everything we think we are and our petty ‘plans’ for ourselves and our children. Reality respects no one. Your life hangs by a thread at any given moment and ultimately means nothing. So why hamper your child with unnecessary ‘rules’ that will prevent them from gaining as much happiness as they can in the pitiful time they have?

So what should you teach your children? Fantasies of a loving bearded man who will take them into his eternal arms if they behave according to his supposed eternal principles? Or, from the atheistic viewpoint, obeying countless and pointless laws that amount to absolutely nothing once one expires?

My philosophy for raising children is this: The bible of Machiavelli, the psalms of Gracian, the morals of Genghis. Take what you can when you can. Obtain pleasure and gratification as often as possible because it only lasts so long. Let others suffer willingly so that you can rejoice. Never limit yourself according to what another man tells you is bad. Do what you must. Do what you can. Do what you will. Teach your children well…

Originally posted by Clearskies
!
If you don't teach them about God, you will go against reality.
..

What on earth is this supposed to mean? Can you please elaborate on this statement , I've tried to wrap my mind around it for several minutes , but boy o boy it's well beyond me. I phoned a few friends to ask if I'm thick and they say no, so please could you explain how not teaching my child about your god is going against reality.

For what it's worth I inform my children, when they ask about religion, to apply the same reasoning as they did when they discovered santa clause was imaginary.

Now my kids can grow up without having to concern themselves about religion. When they're older they may choose to investigate religion, however they will do it with a reasoning mind and hopefully require imperical evidence before reaching any conclusions.

My personal position is, that my job is to help my children learn to become informed before having an opinion, they have their whole lives ahead to form opinions about the infromation they accuire.

Surely only the ignorant make decisions without all the information and to expect a child to take on a belief system with no imperical evidence is suerly an injustice to its undeveloped faculty of reason?

Okay. Clearksky, that was a pretty silly thing to say. I don't usually get into this argument because it's pointless... but prove it. The only evidence you have is a book. Let's hope that every other religion, including some that were around LONG before yours are wrong, for your child's sake.
Tell me- if there were two tubs, one filled with water, the other acid, and you had no evidence which was which, would you blindly push your child into one based on faith? Actually, that's too fair of a chance. If there were thousands of tubs and only one filled with water, would you push your child into the one you thought was right, based only on faith?
You don't know that Christianity is reality, NO ONE does. So don't make such foolish statements.
If you respond to this with "I DO know it's real" then you, my friend, are lying. And you know what the bible says about lying...

This thread really doesn't have to get out of hand.

As a very relevant verse in the Bible says, 'Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.'

So this will be a godly house. What anyone else chooses to do is none of my business. After the age of 18 if my son wanders from the faith, all I can do is continue to pray for him, continue to be a godly influence in his life, and continue to be there for him to answer his questions and or doubts if that time ever comes.

When people start criticizing anyone else for how they raise their children, they are seriously overstepping their bounds. Just remember to watch your own home.

Originally posted by quaple_pouge
Food for thought:

My mother in law raised my husband and his sister without any belief system. They are two of the most "lost" people I have ever met (and I don't mean in the Christian sense of the word saved vs lost).

They have floundered their entire lives.

Children need to be raised with some sort of belief system. I'm not sure how your parents were, but bringing your children to church is not "forcing" religion down their throats, it is simply giving them a base or foundation that they desperately need.

Their lack of direction in life doesn't mean that it came from lack of religion in their lives. My hubby and sister in law were not raised with any real belief system and yet they are both very strong, moral people who have good direction in their lives. They are both successful, kind, generous, loving people with a good set of morals and values. Their morals and values would rival that of any 'good christian'. Me on the other hand, I was raised with strong christian beliefs and yet I somehow still question everything. I despise church and religion in general, it has never been a positive experience for me in any way. That alone has effected my life as an adult.

Originally posted by asmeone2At this point I don't feel the desire to be that blunt, because I think it would only cause conflict.

I would not hesitate to put my foot down if it came to that, though.

Originally posted by asmeone2At this point I don't feel the desire to be that blunt, because I think it would only cause conflict.

I would not hesitate to put my foot down if it came to that, though.

sorry about the double posts that didn't even have my comment in them . Just kind of decided it would post itself w/out my reply in it

Anyway ~ I don't think this has to be done in a rude way. I have had to intervene where my mother is concerned bc her idea of raising children is much different than the approach I have taken. She has undermined my authority (or tried to) a couple of times and I respectfully let her know that it is not her place.

Ultimately the responsibility of the raising falls on the shoulders of you and your partner and being that they are impressionable at such a young age, it is important to make sure that the impressions you deem fit are the ones being made.

Good luck with your situation

[edit on 7-8-2008 by justamomma]

Of course you realize the opposite is true:

Just because you cannot write a book inspired by God doesn't mean that the Bible wasn't.

Logic sucks huh?

Originally posted by Clearskies
There are a LOT of atheists and agnostics who are not consistent in their logic.
Why is it, if a Christian states their faith, they're immediately insulted with names? 'Narrow-minded', 'oppressive' and 'gullible believer of lies?', many here that I haven't posted.

But, when someone of atheism, agnosticism does the same, they are USUALLY never insulted?
I believe it's about one's character.


BTW, I have NEVER in all my years heard anyone (who is a Christian) say.
"God works in mysterious ways"!

now, you may continue with your christian-bashing, if you so choose

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Clearskies]

"The probability of something being true increases proportionately to the level people are speaking out against it."

If I started a thread right now stating "The Milky Way is actually made of Skittles", I betcha it wouldn't go 2 pages.

Originally posted by asmeone2

I know what you mean, but I'm simply stating that we never stop being our parent's children, I still go to Mom and Pops for advice, most likely they have experienced something I'm having a difficult time with.

Now, of course a parent wouldn't teach that aspect of Christianity to a toddler, but when the child is older it is okay. For a toddler teaching them that "God made kitty", etc... I don't think anyone assumes the parent should teach every aspect of God's Word to toddlers, when they are that age teach them to fear God, just the way we teach them to fear the belt if they act up.

The lesson has to match the level they can comprehend... baby steps. I was pointing out that it seemed like you were saying that at some point we were no longer our parents children, or that their "teachings" ended when we went off to school.

No matter what you teach your children, in the religious sense, it is in the end up to them if they follow it or not.

I don't agree with your second post. We should not fear god, we should try to be in harmony with him. Christianity sells that, but doesn't deliver it. Children should not learn to act a certain way because they're afraid of getting spanked. That only makes the child angry and one day, that will backfire.

I 100% agree, in the end it's up to them, it's what is in their heart.

Secondly, I don't use the word "fear" as being scared, it's more like loving respect. Kinda like when you are a child, you know that if you get into trouble at school you know your dad will blister your butt when he finds out.

Originally posted by AshleyD
'Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.'

Hey Ashley.

i love that quote, its something iv always liked the sound of.

i read it though, as i am the lord, and i serve my house, and my kids.

i think personally you can read these biblical quotes, and take from it what you need to.

as long as your heart is true, and your intent true, i 100% believe that is enough.
i really dont think we need to go to church to be a good person.

i firmly believe the church, and the modern way its set out, is wrong.

again, this is just an opinion, and i hope i do not upset anyone with my opinions.

i tried god a few times, and couldnt find him.

Quick Story :

3 years ago, my 2 sons were going away to Portugal with the Grandparents.
i have a TERRIBLE fear of planes and flying in general. every time my kids go on a plane, i have a very strong fear. it consumes me, i cant be "me" with the worry. Anyway. the night before the went away, i took the dogs out, as i was standing there, i was really upset. i looked into the sky (big ass sky) and said to myself..."God, if you can hear me, send me a sign that my boys will be safe" ..seconds later, the exact area i was staring it, "2 SHOOTING STARS".
i cried, as i knew "god" was watching over me.

Now, i dont do church, and i dont pray every day.
i do tho, thank god when good things happen, and challenge him when bad things happen. all in my head, and never in a church.

1 time i went to a church. the day my 2 sons arrived.
at the airport, as soon as i knew the flight had landed, i went into the airport church room place (you know the type) and said thank you.

i dont need no church to have a relationship with god.

honest to god, may i drop dead if i am kidding, true story.

At this point- the majority of people I know don't believe in religion...yeah theres alot of people who are religious but I'm seeing more and more atheists than anything. Being one of them, I see no point to caring whether someone raises a child religious or not. Frankly, we live in a day and age where people just don't care anymore- the ways of your parents and their parents are very different from today...theres no way of imposing religion on kids like the baby boomers were. The world is a much crazier place today than it was in the 60's and 50's. People are more worried about life than whats after it.

I totally agree, teaching a young child religion is basically like telling them they can fly. Has about the same amount of proof.