Raising Kids Without Religion... A cop-out?

One has to distinguish RELIGION (belief in set creeds, often in foreign languages the believer cannot read or understand, and following a set rituals the original meanings of which may have been lost over time) and SPIRITUALITY -- which is more of a belief that all life (human, plant, animal, alien etc) is ONE, and that hurting 'the other' is the same as 'hurting self' - i.e. the CONNECTEDNESS of all THINGS meaning...ALL things...

There is no room in Spirituality for outmoded and impossibly arrogant concepts such as 'Chosen People' or 'Master Races' or any of the sociological plagues that humanity has been saddled with for millennia...

To me, teaching or telling a child about the elements of pure Spirituality (and not 'man-made religion' or mindless rituals or non scientific belief systems) will help the child himself and the greater planet (and therefore the greater universe) ;

Whereas teaching a small child to believe in or take 'literally' puerile and facile fantasies (i.e. non facts) such as Santa Claus, Talking Snakes, Virgin Births, The Easter Bunny, Adam & Eve as literal persons, the Tooth Fairy, or even in so-called Heroes in the Bible e.g. Joshua chapter 10, where an ordinary human being is seen 'commanding the sun and the moon to stand still so he can finish a battle--so he can be revenged on his enemies' etc. etc. etc. is nothing less than CHILD ABUSE as Dr Dawkins pointed out at Oxford University a few years back.

Raising a child without Religion is a positive thing; but raising a child without spirituality would be turning the child into an adult dehumanized, non-feeling animal in my view.

Just my $.02 this afternoon...

Originally posted by kidflash2008
My problem with atheists is many talk down to people who do believe in God or Goddess. Many have no respect and always have to challenge what the person has faith in. Not all of them do it, as I have atheist friends who are respectful.

I personally couldn't care less if someone believes that the man on the moon fathered their children. It's your belief system, do with it what you will. The problem is when that belief system starts to infringe upon the rights and privileges of others, or when bigotry and any type of ism comes out of it (racism, sexism, etc.)

A belief system shouldn't be forced on anyone, they should figure it out on their own. If I had children and one ended up being a Mormon then that's fantastic. I don't agree with their views at all, but as long as they're a good person, it won't matter in the end. However, I might have something to say if they start raising my grandchild to be a Mormon before he knows what's what. I would expect my child to give their child the same freedoms that I did when they grew up.

I have a friend who is a devout Christian, but he's probably my best friend. It doesn't matter that our philosophical views don't match. We get along great, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. However, if he ever tried to convince me to come to Christianity, he'd fail miserably.

Originally posted by Chrystostomus
Raising a child without Religion is a positive thing; but raising a child without spirituality would be turning the child into an adult dehumanized, non-feeling animal in my view.

This begs the question, what do you view is spiritual? If you aren't teaching a specific religion, that leaves out a specific god or creator. You obviously won't be teaching him that fairies exist.

I'm not sure what you mean by spiritual exactly, but as far as I am concerned, teach a kid to treat others as he wants to be treated, and to have empathy, and to share, etc., and you're good to go. None of those are really spiritual.

[edit on 8-8-2008 by OnionCloud]

[edit on 8-8-2008 by OnionCloud]

reply to post by MrGrieves


I'll be happy to answer those, some of those, or most of those for you in another thread where it would be on topic.

That site was grossly inaccurate and was a perfect example of poor scholarship. Just another list of long since debunked so-called 'Bible contradictions.'

More to the topic of discussion at hand: I take it you do not raise your children with Christian religious views.

Originally posted by MrGrieves
reply to post by asmeone2

 

Amen to that. They can't do it themselves so they seek some imaginary friend to do it for them.
God must have been quite the show off when he rained down brimstone or parted the sea or sent the plagues. Is he taking a break or something?
The world is sicker than ever, and we could certainly use a miracle or two. Perhaps when people are finished praying to god for a good grade on their test, they can start praying for something that will make a difference in the world.

I notice that people like that tend to be generally happy, and have already run through every other method of keeping their pain at bay like drugs, sex, gambling. Then they turn to religion and it becomes their saving grace... not only can they not let go of their pain, they rationalize every little hurt as Satan it disguise.

Anything can be rationed away as an act of God. Remeber the people who were trying to say that 911 and Katrina were punishment from God. I don't undestand first of all how anyone could be that callous, but secondly, how they know those things are from God, but something liek Darfur, Rwanda, Pol Pot, or the Holocaust can be blamed on atheism or a deviation from God's word(on the part of the perpetrator)

reply to post by Chrystostomus


That is true. I am talking about how I would rather raise my children to be spiritual, rather than religious, so thank you for the distinction.

I do think there is merit in the symbolism of religion, whether it be Jesus or QQetzocotl, so long as it isn't mistaken for reality.

reply to post by AshleyD


I didn't get to read the whole page, but from what I did read, it was fairly accurate. I suppose there's always a way to get 'around' things, though.

I guess I'll see everybody in hell.

If your religion wasn't so full of holes, you wouldn't need to start your converting process at birth.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I only wish I had been raised with more religion. I came to Christ through the school of hard knocks and by preponderance of the evidence. Our society is becoming increasing secular and the results are apparent to anyone with eyes.

When I was growing up there had never been a school shooting. Now most schools have metal detectors and Policemen in the hallways because the shooting have been so numerous. Violence, Drugs, Stds, teen pregnancies all have increased. Our culture is winding down.

If you have faith you would be remiss to not share it with your children. If you don't... well you have bigger problems than your children.

Wow, you must of grown up in in the 19th century because the first recorded school shooting happened in April 9, 1891 in Newburgh, New York. Look it up if you don't believe me. There has been an increase in the frequency of school shootings, but don't sit there and try to say school shootings only started when America started becoming more secular. Where i live there are no metal detectors, or police in the schools. If you want to blame something, blame pop culture. The ever increasing urbanization of this country. Lack of respect for other people and bad parenting. Statistics actually show that violence, drug use, STD's and pregnancies among teens have all gone down in the past 20 years. 100, even 50 years ago it was considered normal and even encouraged for a girl to be married and pregnant shortly after she got her period. Today people wait till they are emotionally mature to have children, not just physically able. The people that still encourage that type of mentality are religious extremists of one kind or another.(Amish, LDS, etc.) And sorry but you said you "I came to Christ through the school of hard knocks and by preponderance of the evidence." What evidence? A feeling? A book that was written 2000 years ago and has been changed, edited, and debated over so much that it has no resemblance to the original documents. I am being serious here. What evidence?

Now to get back on topic.

I have had a similar dilemma. I am completely anti-religion. For many reasons. So many people have died in the name of religion that it sickens me to think about it. They way it is used to control people through fear, guilt and intimidation is just wrong. I was raised in a Mormon household but thankfully it wasn't shoved down my throat. My mothers father was very high up in the Mormon church (Quorum of the Twelve). He was the most evil person i have ever known. Evil oozed from him like sap from a tree. He beat his wife and kids(all 22 of them) daily. Sexually abused my Mom and her sisters(all 13 of them) at will. Yet supposabley he was about as close to god as you can be and still be breathing. His morals were impeccable(to the outside world). So being religious, or believing in God doesn't mean that you have the market cornered on Morals and values.

My in laws however are hardcore Mormons. Not jack Mormons mind you, very devout, very pious, etc. They started taking my 2 sons to church without asking me first. I work out of town so i am not home for months on end and when i found out i was furious. Thankfully, it never really became an issue because my Grandfather in-law respected my wishes that my children not be brainwashed by the Mormon propaganda. I told him i didn't want him taking my kids to church with him anymore, and he asked me why. I told him and that was the end of it. I have a great amount of respect for him because of this. He is the most upstanding, Moral person i have ever met. Not because of religion. In spite of it. He was raised right. His parents instilled in him a strong work ethic and good moral compass. I told him my wishes and he respected them because he respects me. To the OP. If you tell your mother your wishes and she doesn't respect them, then she doesn't respect you. You need to remind her of this if it becomes an iss

Originally posted by MrGrieves
I didn't get to read the whole page, but from what I did read, it was fairly accurate. I suppose there's always a way to get 'around' things, though.

You would need to be fluent in ancient Hebrew and Greek and have access to the ancient texts to make such an assessment. Something tells me you lack both of those requirements so let's stick to the topic at hand. Deal?

If your religion wasn't so full of holes, you wouldn't need to start your converting process at birth.

Hm... that is a gross generalization. If you knew more about Christianity on a world wide scale instead of our westernized secluded bubble, you never would have said such a thing. Not to mention a baseless one unless you expand on what those holes are, yet again it would be off topic.

Originally posted by Global consciousness
And time upon time upon time I have been told what wonderful children I have and how comes they are that way........not just by family and friends but teachers and doctors as well.

I can say the very same of my daughter, who I am teaching as I was taught (and, it would seem, you are teaching your children). Everyone is amazed at how well-behaved, thoughtful, honest, loving and giving she is.

Morals come from within not from religion.
I/we don't need religion to know how we should be treating are fellow brothers and sisters....

So true. Religion is indeed not the source of morals, merely of dogma (such as "never being good enough!"). Morals are easy to come by for those who are taught to "walk a mile in another's shoes." And to never do unto another that which one does not want done to oneself.

reply to post by MrGrieves


So, are you going to take her up on it and make a separate thread?
That would keep this one 'on topic.'

reply to post by Nicademus


Thank you for that reply.

I am pointing the finger at all religions equally, but I tend to use Christians as the example, because I have the most experience with them.

NoTurTypical tried to finger 1963 as the year that America went to the dogs because they took God out of the schools then (lemme say it for you, pal: straw man! straw man! straw man!) but I think that had more to do with the Great Society, Welfare State beginning.

We could use a whole ofther topic just on that.

You would need to be fluent in ancient Hebrew and Greek and have access to the ancient texts to make such an assessment. Something tells me you lack both of those requirements so let's stick to the topic at hand. Deal?

Not to point the finger at you specifically Ashley, but I think it speaks very badly towards the church in general that we don't have those texts widely availible.

If a religion is going to say that theirs is the way, they should lay all their cards on the table.

If they should say that their texts are the right one, then they should teach there followers to use the most original version we have, even if they need to learn another language.

One of the issues I have with Christendom is the endless varience of biblical translations. It's like a bait and switch. If they are honest about giving people the truth then they should be working to make these texts availible, not hiding them because they might contridict the views they have held in the past.

Originally posted by ToolFanMael

Originally posted by Amaterasu


My grandparents did take me to church, and I learned a great deal about Christianity through them, but when my family discussed religion, it was always in terms of "these people believe this, and those people believe that."

see I think the government or elitest or whoever is really in control want it that way... as long as we all think of different religions as these people and those people we will never truly be united in peace.. not to say it cant happen but I think alot of people need to question there foundations for things to change for the better!

this is the most interesting thread i've come across in a long time... excellen reply Amat and good threat OP

LOL! I think you missed my point. The following sentence was stating that NO VALUE JUDGMENT was placed on the beliefs. They are merely different. And never were they presented as being "wrong," less than having no religion, better than having no religion, or whatever. They were, as I said, merely different, like some people have green eyes and some blue and some brown and some gray, and some... Just different, not better. Not worse.

The "these people/those people" statement was used, not to suggest any inequality, but I didn't want to start specifying (as in, "The Jews believe this and the Catholics believe that, and the Buddhists believe this, and the Wiccans believe that, and..." That was just to be used as a placeholder. Maybe I should have said, "[insert some religion here] believe this, and [insert some other religion here] believe that."

reply to post by asmeone2


No 'finger pointing' taken.

But thanks to the internet, there are actually ongoing projects that have been posting the manuscripts online on a continual basis. Then of course there are Hebrew and Greek lexicon programs and websites available for free online as well (this is what I used the most often since I am not fluent in Hebrew or Greek either).

Don't mean to derail your topic or single out the other member I was talking to. It really isn't an issue for me whether anyone here believes what I do. I am simply thoroughly enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on the OP and would hate to see the thread derailed into an apologetics fest.

Edited to add: There are also Bibles available with the Hebrew and Greek mirrored in split columns or on alternating lines. Those are my favorite. Then you can use the assistance of lexicons for deeper investigation.

Again, sorry to take your thread on a bunny trail. I'll leave it alone now. I don't want to get off on Biblical contradictions as I am pretty much spent on that topic after discussing it so many times on ATS. lol

[edit on 8/8/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by asmeone2


Do you know why many of our founding fathers knew Greek and latin?
It was so they could study the Bible, thoroughly.
The classical education of the founding fathers
School courses used to have Greek courses and Latin.
My mom took some of them.

Blueletterbible
has a concordance of the best translations in the Hebrew and Greek.
I think the Greek interlinear Bible has incorporated both.
The KJV is all I have, but it has all I need for the basics.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by asmeone2

 

No 'finger pointing' taken.

But thanks to the internet, there are actually ongoing projects that have been posting the manuscripts online on a continual basis.

I know. I just feel like the Churches should be using those original translations, and not the modern ones, if they are going to insist that they have more merit than the NIV, KJV, ect.

You can U2U me if you want to, but are you including non-canonical Bible books here?

reply to post by Clearskies


It probably had more to do with the lingering effect of Roman culture on Europe at the time. To say that it was just to study the Bible is preposterous. Remember that they were living in the tail-end of the Enlightenment, which saw Democracy institutionalized across Europe and the AMericas, and a general return to "classical" artistic value. Guess which cultures they studied in order to model their society?

Originally posted by asmeone2
I know. I just feel like the Churches should be using those original translations, and not the modern ones, if they are going to insist that they have more merit than the NIV, KJV, ect.

I totally understand what you mean. Unfortunately, the majority of the population doesn't speak Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic so it would kind of be futile. So the English translations work to get the point of salvation across to the reader but for serious critical analysis, it is always better to resort to the Hebrew and Greek (with the assistance of lexicons if need be) when examining things like alleged Biblical contradiction. Most people with common sense will realize any text translated into another language will have errors and 'contradictions' due to the problems of idioms and grammar differences.

No biggie.

You can U2U me if you want to, but are you including non-canonical Bible books here?

I have read some of the Apocrypha and pseudographical texts and researched some of their origins and authorship but it is going to be up to every individual to come to their own conclusions. If you are asking if the original languages of those texts are posted along with the canonized texts with the online projects or in their own projects, I'm not really sure. Since the online projects are still in their infancy, I would assume they are not included online as of yet but we all know what assuming does. lol Hope I understood what you meant. If you are asking me if I think the apocrypha or PG texts are inspired, I do not believe so after looking into it but of course we could always be wrong.

reply to post by AshleyD


That pretty much answers it, thanks!

I was trying to get ahold of whether you meant translations of the 66 books alone, or if you added the others in there too.

reply to post by asmeone2



It wasn't just for their appreciation for Roman art;

When as students they came up from the Latin schools to college or from their private tutors they were expected to be able to talk Latin. Indeed their collegiate exercises in logic the first year and in metaphysics and ethics but also in natural philosophy in the concluding years were conducted in Latin…
They were expected to be able to read at least the New Testament in Greek and it must not be forgotten that when the Massachusetts Bay Psalm Book was printed (1638) it was translated from the original Hebrew by clergymen in the colonies who had been educated in the English and Scotch colleges after the same method and in accordance with the curriculum that was introduced into the colonial colleges.

What I'm relaying to you is that they STUDIED the original scriptures and they appreciated it's consistency.