a draft would be the best thing for this generation

reply to post by Magnivea

Magnivea, this is a forum. Opinions are expressed here. Take nothing personally unless you know it applies to you.

Sleuth

Do I think a draft should be started? Nope. I really don't want unmotivated troops next time I go into the sandbox.

Now, I think there should be some form of community service. If they want to join the military, great. If they don't, give them something else to do for 2 or 3 years. Pay them a decent wage, and maybe throw some college assistance into the deal, too, since they are putting their own lives on hold for a few years.

I agree 100%. The majority of the posts to this thread are a good example of why. In my opinion, the youth of this country, not being subject to mandatory service, has carried the trait of self absorption typical of adolescence, into adult hood. This generation should be named the "me" generation. In their opinion, government plays the same role as parents do in relation to adult children these days. Namely, pay for my education. Provide me with free food and housing as long as you don't crimp my style with rules, after all I am an adult. If I have a medical emergency pay for it. If I happen to be in a situation that involves an unwanted pregnancy, pay for it to go away. If I happen to marry the wrong person, pay for my divorce and take care of my children while I go back to school. Subsidize the cost of my mistakes with gifts or loans that I have no intention of paying back. In other words, take care of me with no interference. The government has other people to fight wars, deliver mail, offer assistance in national emergencies, help the disadvantaged, take care of the elderly, mentor young adults, assist in foreign nations that are undergoing sickness or famine. A draft would give young adults a "trade" to fall back on that would contribute to a resurgence in skilled craftsmen in this country. It would also give a young person the opportunity to succeed or fail on their own merit. Granted there are dangers involved in serving in the military, but in my opinion they are necessary in order to turn a perpetual dependent child into a responsible adult and productive member of the world's population. Ok, rant over.....

reply to post by Slothrop


war is dumb....

no on a draft...

it seems some of your friends want a draft as well...
judicial-inc.biz...





governments suck

govern=control

ment or mente=mind




have a nice day

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by spines
You are SO right!

The best thing for me (and my generation) would be the opportunity to patriotically...get shot in the face.

Look on the bright side: You get to shoot others in the face, too!

Originally posted by spinesWhat kind of person wants to force me and my friends to die? And for what; so those that manage to live/avoid the draft can 'build some character'?

Well, you pay attention in training and you and your friends don't die. Kinda simple how that works.

Wow, the idiotic statement at the end there tells the whole story of who you are. That's pretty sad. I really hope I am way off base here but I don't think so.

Just pay attention in training. I can't stop laughing. What you are saying then is that all of the thousands of troops that have died in Iraq simply weren't paying attention? That the ambushes and such could have been avoided if they would have listened. That no one would be sniped out of their seat.

Man, I wonder sometimes what the thought process of a blind person would be like. I think you just enlightened me to that.

An employee group thinking the employer group and their children are THEIR OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY? My children will never serve the pockets of the Rosthchild or Rockefeller war machines, thank you very much. And they not your own personal property to discuss in this thread either, as well. They are sovereigns, and the only war everyone may have to fight is the revolution needed to take back their power from the nazi bloodlines who think they are entitled to run things and need to be brought to justice in international courts for war crimes. I would perform a citizens arrest on anyone who comes near my children.

reply to post by jerico65


And then I see you post something like this.

Maybe you did just throw a blind statement out there without thought because this statement has a LOT of thought put into it.

I can agree with this idea. But, where does the money come from to put every single adulescent in this country through government work for 2 to 3 years each?

I'll tell you where. From you and I. From the people that have served their country and are now trying to make ends meet by working hard 40 plus hours a week. Like I have said before, are we going to raise the income tax to 60% or more just to cover this work program?

What you are talking about, in a sense, is a form of communism. Because where would the jobs come from? The government would have to force businesses to start hiring youths for 2 to 3 years after high school. The key point would be that they still WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT and not the company. That means that government, in essence, controls the business. Then we are back to the argument of what the OP was saying was justification for going into Vietnam.

I understand that you guys really mean to have good thoughts on this but they are just not thought all the way through.

Originally posted by dariousg
Wow, the idiotic statement at the end there tells the whole story of who you are. That's pretty sad. I really hope I am way off base here but I don't think so.

Just pay attention in training. I can't stop laughing. What you are saying then is that all of the thousands of troops that have died in Iraq simply weren't paying attention? That the ambushes and such could have been avoided if they would have listened. That no one would be sniped out of their seat.

Man, I wonder sometimes what the thought process of a blind person would be like. I think you just enlightened me to that.

Yep, I don't know what I'm talking about. Obviously, since you aren't in the military, I'll write this out in easy to read words, since I can't use my crayons for you.

Training can keep you from getting killed. Of course, that's not 100% foolproof, as anyone would know. (Opps, you didn't!).

And yes, sometimes, simply paying attention to your surroundings can keep you alive. Guys sometimes don't do that, and they get killed (Like the rocket scientists that want to wear iPods while doing convoy duties).

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.
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[edit on 8/8/2008 by watch_the_rocks]

reply to post by Slothrop


I thought for sure I was going to flame this Op just from the title of the thread... ( I have 7 kids and the thought of them going off to fight and die for some "Bush" type cause, makes me sick)

But... he is right. All of us that have never served (me included) don't really have any skin in the game. I was one of the 60th level WoW junkies while our troops were dying over seas.

I support the draft because I believe we no longer are vested in our Country. We let politicians do what they want because "most" of us don't have family members going to war. There should be NO exemptions based on class or position. All members of Congress' kids should be drafted too! That may make the decision to go to war a bit more careful than flipping a coin.

......man, there are sooooo many good reasons to reintroduce the draft. If there are cons, the pros vastly out weigh them. I support Obama and Al Franken, so don't write this off as just another neo-con throwing down.

( why was I playing Warcraft rather than serving? I was too old. They keep moving the age up but I was always a couple years older than the cut off, I'm 41.) plus, if they couldn't promise me officer school, I wouldn't have done it either. (that was the issue for me after college in 1989) Now I am even too old to get into JAG, I'm a 3L. If we had a draft back then, I wouldn't have had a choice and that would have been fine too.

Originally posted by Slothrop


ever since vietnam, which was a necessary if unpopular war

Vietnam was only necessary for the CIA to import heroin into the USA from the Golden Triangle in the body bags of their victims shipped home. It was also necessary for the Military contractors to make huge sums of money. There was NOTHING gained by the United States to justify the involvement there. Dominoes anyone?

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by dariousg
Wow, the idiotic statement at the end there tells the whole story of who you are. That's pretty sad. I really hope I am way off base here but I don't think so.

Just pay attention in training. I can't stop laughing. What you are saying then is that all of the thousands of troops that have died in Iraq simply weren't paying attention? That the ambushes and such could have been avoided if they would have listened. That no one would be sniped out of their seat.

Man, I wonder sometimes what the thought process of a blind person would be like. I think you just enlightened me to that.

Yep, I don't know what I'm talking about. Obviously, since you aren't in the military, I'll write this out in easy to read words, since I can't use my crayons for you.

Training can keep you from getting killed. Of course, that's not 100% foolproof, as anyone would know. (Opps, you didn't!).

And yes, sometimes, simply paying attention to your surroundings can keep you alive. Guys sometimes don't do that, and they get killed (Like the rocket scientists that want to wear iPods while doing convoy duties).

So, feel free to unf**k your statement any time you want. You are a no-go at this station, anyway.

I'm not in the military because I served my time. Got out. Back during the first Bush war. Just so you know. Also, I'm sure you have already seen it, I retracted a bit of what I said here because I saw that you were simply prodding that person who made the initial statment.

Because of my training I ALWAYS pay attention to my surroundings. I also pass this on to my son and daughters who I will NOT force into service if they don't want to. It's up to the parents to make sure their kids don't end up playing video games all day. You know, I moved away from an area that had a majority of kids like this. I now live in a community where it is the norm for parents to guide their children and to be the proper mentors that they should be.

Back to the topic, can you answer the question on the funding part that I posed. That seems to be the part that supporters of a draft or civil service don't want to answer.

Originally posted by Slothrop
i see and hear a lot of paranoia these days about the government instituting another draft. in my mind, a draft would be about the best thing for the current generation of american kids.

ever since vietnam, which was a necessary if unpopular war, american democracy has been debased until it has become no more than a tyranny of the masses. the government is now expected to bow down to popular cowardices and feelings of entitlement. we have welfare and food stamps, but no compulsory service to one's country.

an entire generation of americans is involved in their country in theory only, playing world of warcraft or writing blogs from the safety of basement rooms while the world grows more dangerous day by day.

these people should be made to realize that, in being a patriot and a citizen, something is always at stake. a draft may be the only way.

This is one of the most evil posts I have ever seen on this site.

You want to strip me of my good human qualities, turn me into a murderous machine, and advocate my death by sending me into a war zone?

You think America's youth need to be taught a lesson by sending them to their DEATHS?

Because you think Blogs are stupid?

A soldier is nothing but a paid murderer. I will never raise arms against someone I have never met just because a concept like "the government" tells me that violence and murder is ok when I do it in their name.

You know, I really don't think that what we need is to drain all our young men and women of their compassion and turn them into monsters and set them free on the rest of the world.

Somehow that seems counter-productive to life and liberty.

Originally posted by mystiq
An employee group thinking the employer group and their children are THEIR OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY? My children will never serve the pockets of the Rosthchild or Rockefeller war machines, thank you very much. And they not your own personal property to discuss in this thread either, as well. They are sovereigns, and the only war everyone may have to fight is the revolution needed to take back their power from the nazi bloodlines who think they are entitled to run things and need to be brought to justice in international courts for war crimes. I would perform a citizens arrest on anyone who comes near my children.

Actually... Once your children reach 18 they can do whatever they want.. If they want to join the military they can, and legally you can't stop them. I haven't seen anyone talking about your children specifically, or saying that your children are their personal property so don't know what you are talking about there. And yes I did just make a comment, but it stands for everyone once they turn 18 not just yours. It counts for my children too. Once they are 18 I can't legally stop them from doing anything, nor can any other parent in this country.

And you can try to do a citizens arrest on anyone who comes near your children, but I have to wonder. Do you perform citizens arrests on the teachers who teach your kids things you don't agree with? Will you do the same with their employers, once they have jobs or if they already do, if they tell your children to clean the bathrooms or mop the floors or whatever it is you don't agree with them doing at work?

This is the reason we have so many kids in this country who think of no one but themselves. The "me" generation, as another poster called it, is the product of parents who shield their children too much. There is a difference between saving them from something that will cause immediate harm and preventing little Joey from being told his team lost the ballgame. There is a difference between saying "No you will not go to a party at your friends house with no parents when I know that Billy's older brother will be bringing alcohol." and treating kids like they will break if they have even the slightest twinge of being upset by something.

It irritates me when parents act like their child should be protected from the tiniest of things instead of letting them feel disappointment and helping them work through it. You can't protect them from everything, and as I said once they are 18 you have no control. And really, a citizens arrest for coming near your children?

Originally posted by RavagedSky
A soldier is nothing but a paid murderer. I will never raise arms against someone I have never met just because a concept like "the government" tells me that violence and murder is ok when I do it in their name.

Really? What about the thousands of soldiers who have never even shot at someone let alone killed them? Are they paid murderers too? And you wouldn't shoot someone who was trying to kill you? Really? You wouldn't even attempt to save your own life? Have you any clue what restrictions our military is under? They cannot just shoot people, nor do they. If you actually spoke to someone who has been overseas you would know that they don't just shoot and kill everyone they see. They practically have to be shot before they can do anything to save their own lives.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Jenna]

Originally posted by Slothrop
reply to post by krill

 

why exactly was vietnam a necessary war ? i assume you do know that the gulf of tonkin incident that brought us in to the war was a staged false flag operation and has been admited as such. so why was it necessary again?

the gulf of tonkin incident was an example of a noble lie. it was necessary to convince the american people to enter a war whose purpose they wouldn't readily be able to understand.

vietnam was absolutely necessary to stop the spread of communism and protect us interests in southeast asia. it's easy to deny now that communism was a real menace, but people who were around then and even those of us who weren't but who do understand geopolitical strategy and reality understand that the us vs the communists was a war of survival that needed to be won by any necessary means.

I always forget how that turned out - did it work?

I understand what you're saying - your feelings on the subject of patriotism

and we all wonder about just how much we and the people around us appreciate what we have here

but you can't create a patriot - and you for sure aren't going to instill a sense of patriotism with a draft

this theory - unfortunately - may be put to the test - so we'll see

but as far as patriotism goes - you can still be a true patriot - love your country - embrace democracy completely - but not agree with all of the choices and decisions made by your country

patriotism isn't about blind faith and trust

a noble lie - wow

if you really trust and believe in your country - and it's citizens - your fellow patriots

if you really believe in democracy - there's no room for the noble lie

edited because sometimes I forget how language works

[edit on 8/7/2008 by Spiramirabilis]

Originally posted by Slothrop
i see and hear a lot of paranoia these days about the government instituting another draft. in my mind, a draft would be about the best thing for the current generation of american kids.

ever since vietnam, which was a necessary if unpopular war, american democracy has been debased until it has become no more than a tyranny of the masses. the government is now expected to bow down to popular cowardices and feelings of entitlement. we have welfare and food stamps, but no compulsory service to one's country.

an entire generation of americans is involved in their country in theory only, playing world of warcraft or writing blogs from the safety of basement rooms while the world grows more dangerous day by day.

these people should be made to realize that, in being a patriot and a citizen, something is always at stake. a draft may be the only way.

Right out the communist manifesto!!

Thanks, but no thanks Mr. Karl Marx, you go ahead and go kill for your beloved state, and the few interests it serves.

reply to post by Jenna


This is a very passionate post Jenna. One that mirrors my feelings. We cannot coddle our kids. They will never be ready for the 'real' world if they are pampered until they leave the house. Actually, many of 'them' kids never leave the house. I have a nephew that is afraid to jump out of our van when he visits. Why? Not because he is afraid of heights but because his mom babies him too much. What happens is this. He is afraid to run around the house or to go down the stairs. If he falls and hardly hurts himself he will sit there and bawl until his mom comes over to pamper him. As soon as she does his tears miraculously dissolve. It's pathetic really.

After three nights at my place he nows jumps out of the van (actually enjoys it like a kid should!) and he no longer needs someone to hold his hand when he goes down the stairs.

Oh yeah, he's 5. My youngest is 3 and she has done things that would make him cringe and pee his pants! It's sad but that is kind of my point that I made in a previous post. It's up to the PARENTS to prepare their kids. Unfortunately, many are failing their children horribly. Who's fault is it?

Many want to say that it's the generation. However, when you truly look into it you will find that a lot of it stems from the very entity that you are saying we should force our children to work for. The government is the primary cause for this mess. Not the 'generation me'. With welfare and free handouts for people who really shouldn't qualify for it. There was a time there where they didn't even pursue people on the system to try and better themselves. That's what started this. A huge portion of the 'generation me' comes from those families. I came from one of those families. I had to learn the HARD way both financially and experience wise. I refuse to keep the cycle going so I teach my kids to be ready for the real world when it will hit them hard in the face. Because one day it will and I want them ready for it.

Back onto the OP. I see that you also preach that once they hit 18 that it is up to them. Well, not if there is a forced draft and forced labor for 2 to 3 years. It's no longer their 'free will'. Now it is the governments will and they get to train these kids to follow THEIR ideals instead of the kids own beliefs that they have a right to develop without governmental interference.

Plus, as I have asked, where does the money come from to employ every single new adult?

reply to post by RavagedSky


Great point about the soldiers, being paid murderers for the State. It's actually worse when you think about what conscription means. It means instead of voluntary being paid to kill, the State is now turned YOU into a slave, thus you now are forced to commit murder on its behalf.

I just love how the OP somehow disguises the ability to kill yourself with the notion of war. look its very simple war and all that comes with it is wrong. IF you cant see that then you have not evolved or really paid any attention to whats actually going on. Honestly I would love a draft cause that would be the tipping point for our society to revolt!

reply to post by Sleuth

Should not a patriot start with the government? We have two people in office that could not do there time because they ,,Had "OTHER" things to do that were more important. Amazing how it works for one, but not the other. If there is going to be a draft, lets have a good reason, Not just for oil, money, power, and Haliburton having control. If we are going to do this to say we are such great people,, We should have done this in the 80's, when we knew that he was gassing the tar out of people. That would have been a reason.

reply to post by Slothrop


Have you ever served? I am currently and I must say I dislike the idea of serving in battle next to some of the soldiers we have now, let alone people that don't even want to be there.

I want the government to work for us, not us for it. All things our government does is self preservation. They are trying to preserve themselves (the government) at the expense of the common man. For the government to work for us, we would have to have a government that worked against itself. Shrink the scope of government, and allow people to be free.

Well, you pay attention in training and you and your friends don't die. Kinda simple how that works.

Kind of..... sort of. I am agreeing slightly. I know a few people that were highly trained and professional individuals that are now missing their lives or pieces of their natural body. At the same time, I know complete ****ups who continue to live and endanger the rest of us. Survival of the fittest has some merit in this circumstance, but it is not the rule.

I agree 100%. The majority of the posts to this thread are a good example of why. In my opinion, the youth of this country, not being subject to mandatory service, has carried the trait of self absorption typical of adolescence, into adult hood.

This is unfortunate but leave those selfish cowards at home. I do not want to die because they suck at their job.

In their opinion, government plays the same role as parents do in relation to adult children these days.

So instead of changing our governments entitlement policies, we should send all of the immature selfish brats to war. I know this isn't exactly what you are saying, but you are conceding my point that the government is out of control.

I'll tell you where. From you and I. From the people that have served their country and are now trying to make ends meet by working hard 40 plus hours a week. Like I have said before, are we going to raise the income tax to 60% or more just to cover this work program?

A great point. To pay for this vast government work program, we would have to make the government larger (more cash) at the expense of the taxpayer.

And yes, sometimes, simply paying attention to your surroundings can keep you alive. Guys sometimes don't do that, and they get killed (Like the rocket scientists that want to wear iPods while doing convoy duties).

I see your point now. I agree. We don't need more unmotivated troops to endanger the ones that know what they are doing.

I support the draft because I believe we no longer are vested in our Country. We let politicians do what they want because "most" of us don't have family members going to war.

Our country is no longer vested in us. If we give our corrupt government the power to take people away from their life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, we are just giving up entirely on those beliefs we hold dear. How is giving a corrupt government more power going to free us? We may take a bigger interest at what is happening, but by then it won't matter because we gave up control.