a draft would be the best thing for this generation

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posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by Slothrop
 


"the government is now expected to bow down to popular cowardices and feelings of entitlement. "

What do you mean by the generalization of the term "government"? That really has loaded implications. Government as far as people call it such means, use of force to take from another property and use of force to enforce territorial terrorism, all governments are territorial terrorists, I think most would agree and the use of the term "Government" essentially amounts to fraud if you mean it represents the "people".

"an entire generation of americans is involved in their country in theory only"

The same could be said for people that believe in the man-made theory of "government". One big mass hallucination of words, made by people so we could take what we want from someone else and attempt to claim a difference from a common murderer or thief. Governments are also theories, oh sounds like you forgot that!




posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 12:04 PM
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excuse my language but thatis by far the dumbest [SNIP] i have ever read on this website... who [SNIP] are you to say an entire generation should be put into war unnecissrily... have you ever even seen combat? Do you know anything about international politics at all? to understand why vietnam was not necissary and that the war in IRaq is not only unnecissary but will leave us and the country of Iraq in worse shape than when saddam controlled it... oh and a lot of people need welfare and food stamps... apparantlly you are [unable] understand that... [SNIP] there is far too much good factual evidence on here... i mean enough people come up with stupid conspiracy theories and "opinions" on here without any backing... but to come out and say something like you just did shows how the internet is sucha useful tool for [certain types] to voice completely backwrod theories

 


edited out profanities and personal attacks

Please read:
1b.) Profanity: You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.

-and-

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

From: The T&C's

[edit on 12/8/08 by masqua]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by robbin_the_hood
 

I don't want you in the military.

 

off-topic personal material removed.

[edit on 12/8/08 by masqua]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by pavil
 


When did I say I would rather surrender? Please quote me where I said that. Better yet, try understanding my point. Why should our children die for us? What your saying is, that if someone broke into my house with a gun, then I should send my draft aged son after them? Why? Sinse when did the adult stop being the protector of the house and family (and this goes for our country). Oh, I see, beings were the adults, we can tell them what to do, right? We can sacrifice their lives so we can live on. Yes......very logical, why should the older generations die when the younger ones can just as easily. Most adults aren`t even good parents these days, yet they can be a good parent long enough to send their kid off to war.

Now, you said that some things are worth fighting for? Correct? You are right, the lives of our children are worth fighting for.


The way children are raised today, with parents that are to busy being workers then parents and having been raised by the schools, babysiters, TV and video games, would you want to fight to protect this society if you were a kid?








[edit on 10-8-2008 by FiatLux]

[edit on 10-8-2008 by FiatLux]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by FiatLux
The way children are raised today, with parents that are to busy being workers then parents and having been raised by the schools, babysiters, TV and video games, would you want to fight to protect this society if you were a kid?

The failure of parents to properly parent is the key item here. Whose fault is it that children are raised by TV and schools and babysitters and video games? Could it be the parents?

Those who have more children than they can properly rear are part of the problem, not the solution. Using children as an argument against service because the lifestyle they've led isn't worthy of protection is ridiculous.

A child's quality of life is the responsibility of the parents and no one else. If parents don't like who their child is becoming, they need to reexamine their parental priorities and adjust them accordingly.

[edit on 8/11/08 by Sleuth]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by Sleuth
 


It`s not the idea of having to many kids to raise. I know many families that they have only one or two children, the problem is, they have way to many debits to pay off, so to make it, both parents HAVE to work, just to make ends meet, and society says nothing about it. It`s just another day to them. And maybe we need to stop thinking like the old school, because that`s what got us into this garbage today. Society needs to change big time, and let parents be parents and throw this"political correctness" garbage away.


Many of the debits that people have are from buying things that they really don`t need to have, or are way to pricey. Another thing is because we`ve allowed inflation to get way out of hand, and with inflated prices, we have to work that many more hours a week just to survive.



[edit on 10-8-2008 by FiatLux]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Sleuth
reply to post by apolluwn
 

You talk pretty big, for a 26-year-old. Have you served your country yet?


Typical deflection. What do my personal experiences have to do with the topic at hand? Absolutely nothing.

It is brazenly apparent that you do not have any supporting argument for your outrageous ideas. Or, your overwhelming hypocrisy. You would like to throw out that everyone else is "armchair quarterbacking" when you, yourself, are involved in the exact same activity.

I am sorry to break it to you, but having served in the military with no combat experience and possessing nothing more than what could be described a complete lack of knowledge about conscription and the Selective Service System hardly qualifies you to sign the death certificates of 21 million young Americans.

Your opinion would certainly be a lot easier to swallow if you didn't show a heartless contempt for an entire generation based solely upon your own personal unfounded biases. You want to belittle an entire generation of Americans and expect to be taken seriously?

What really makes you think that you can self-righteously lump yourself in with those brave souls that fought for the freedom and liberty of this country so that you would have the right to express such opinions that go against everything they shed their blood for?

If conscription was really such an important factor in preserving freedom don't you think this would have been a power given to the Federal Government in the first place?

They sure didn't forget about the right to form militias, the right to assemble to object tyranny such as this (which you also seem to be overwhelmingly opposed to), as well as, the right to bear arms. What about forced military service, though? Well, it just slipped their minds, didn't it?

You need to sit down and read the Constitution for the United States of America, the Declaration of Independence, the Federal Papers, and the commentaries of the men who freed an entire nation.

You apparently do not realize that even our current system denies liberties that the architects of our Constitution described as self-evident, unalienable, and inherent.

They are never described as "earned" as you so errorenously believe.

Thomas Jefferson said it best, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I, for one, will not stand by while you attempt to bastardize the work of these men and spread your poison attempting to further dissolve the freedom and liberty this country was founded upon. You don't even understand what it means to be free, and any of your pro-war one-liners need not apply.

"Freedom isn't free."

Yes, for the most part, it is, but only until a large enough group of ignorant jerks get together and start trading in our freedom and liberty for dollar bills while the rest of the population sit by idly and watch as their essential liberties and freedoms are stripped from them without a single dissenting voice.

Then we have to work our way to Mr. Jefferson's statements.

Someone such as yourself would believe Jefferson is talking about preemptive wars and is supportive of keeping our troops in over 100 countries. He is not.

He is talking about people like you helping to create the political environment that breeds wanton corruption and enables tyranny to prevail without any real escape from the downward spiral of our liberties created solely from the irresponsible use of the freedom and power we truly have over the government.

Our government does not have the power to oppress us and strip us of our liberties. It is we, the people, that allow them to do that and it is people like you who give them the means. It is like you would love nothing more than to pawn off our freedom and liberty for a little peace of mind for yourself. How selfish.

This is precisely the reason why it is the constitutional right and duty of the people to overthrow the government if it becomes self-serving rather than a servant of the people.

And, that is when the proverbial " hits the fan". Is that really what you are looking for? I don't see any logic in that, nor do I in any of the supposed "reasons" any of the supporters of a draft have given. This country isn't in great shape, but it can get a hell of a lot worse and with attitudes like any of you have it inevitably will.

It is only a matter of time before the ignorant overwhelm the rational and unwittingly allow all the liberty our forefathers worked so diligently to pass down to us to be stripped completely away.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by FiatLux

....Better yet, try understanding my point. Why should our children die for us? What your saying is, that if someone broke into my house with a gun, then I should send my draft aged son after them? Why? .........

Most adults aren`t even good parents these days, yet they can be a good parent long enough to send their kid off to war.



I see we are going to have a basic disagreement here. I have stated numerous reasons why it is the youth of a country who serve in the military. Your logic of the someone breaking into your house is not relevant as we are talking Geo Political, not personal. But to better illustrate my point, lets say you are 75 years old and feeble, should you or your 45 year old son try to fight the intruder...........? Youth has it's advantages over the middle aged and elderly in military matters, I don't see why you don't get this as every military in the world is structured this way. Other Western countries have conscription or national service and it seems to work for them. For the US to have it doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. Notice I don't say "lets have a draft in relative peacetime" but rather national service of some sort.

As to your point of adults not being good parents that is whole other subject and one I might add, falls squarely on the personal responsibility of the parents. They can choose to be good parents, they just make poor decisions, with their children suffering as a result. I see it far too often in my dealings with parents and the youth of today.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 09:51 PM
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reply to post by Slothrop
 


I am absolutely appalled by the original post, and many of your subsequent posts. If I could give you a negative star and flag I most certainly would.

Furthermore, I don't know if you have noticed, but there are many soldiers coming back from this war with severe psychological problems, and an even more deplorable sense of entitlement than the kids you are complaining about. So... I'm not sure how it's going to help other than further degrade our backwards society.

Good day to you sir.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by Osiris1953]

[edit on 10-8-2008 by Osiris1953]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by pavil
 


Lol, if I was 75 and feeble, I sure would not be living with my kids. The point I was making is, if I were to say 35-55 years of age, and my son or daughter was 17-19 and not out on his or her own, it`s still my job to protect them, not their job to protect me. Fight for your country as an adult and have some backbone. Just because my child is 17-19, does that make me as a parent old, and unable to fight to protect my own country? No, it doesn`t. Lets leave the younger generation out of the wars we so called human beings make. Why sacrifice them?



[edit on 10-8-2008 by FiatLux]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:59 PM
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reply to post by FiatLux
 


As I have said, we will have to agree to disagree. The world does not operate the way you think it should. The younger generations have always done the fighting of societies since we started keeping records. That will not change for quite a long time, if ever.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by pavil
 


The saddest part is, that your right. It is that way, and that`s why I hate todays society like I do. So hold those little ones close and love them as dearly as you can, while we have the time to. Bless all the children.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 07:18 AM
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reply to post by apolluwn
 

It's a simple question. Have you served your country?



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 07:32 AM
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reply to post by Sleuth
 


Sleuth, I didn`t serve, you want to try me? I know your just trying the old bait and brow beat game. So let`s go for it, ok?



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by Sleuth
 


As are all of the questions I asked you. Yet, still, you insist on systematically ignoring them despite their validity to the topic of this discussion just as you wish to selfishly ignore the inherent rights of every citizen of this country.

If you do not wish to answer the questions posed to you and support your own position with anything more than baseless bull crap then so be it, but we shall consider your opinion null and void on this subject.

I do not have time for petty attempts at deflecting from the real discussion, or your pathetic attempts at baiting me with questions that you believe are self-serving to your weak argument.

In the future, if you wish to place your opinion in the political section of a public message board then you must be prepared to debate your position and be ready to back up your argument with much, much more than mere insults directed at anyone who has a point of view differing from your own.

If you fail to do these few simple things then you are in grave danger of looking like complete ignoramus, and probably just a huge a-hole.

You have accomplished both. Congratulations.

It is now time for you to put up, or shut up.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by apolluwn
 

So, is that a no? Are you one of those people who will ride on the backs on those who have, but insist that you and yours should be exempt?



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by Oldnslo
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic
 


cautiouslypessimistic, the only thing that's sad are your posts. Climb down off your soapbox and quit with the accusations. What have you done with your life other than pump out this bildge on ATS.???

As far as real respect goes, I doubt you have any, it sure doesn't show trying to put me down for speaking up for Vet's. Big man you are. Playing to the crowd.

I'm proud of my service. I could care less what some "Jody" has to say.

Your quote to your "fans", "No? That seems more disrespectful that someone standing up and fighting so that more innocent young men are not sent to kill and be killed". Utter hogwash - You got to be kidding!! So full of self-righteousness, its pathetic. Vet's know the cost of war, first hand. I doubt you know doodleysquat.

Like I said, what have you done to better man's lot in life other than make false accusation about me here on ATS. Come on, Big Boy, lets hear it.


My life experience has nothing to do with the topic at hand, nor did I bring it into the discussion, as you did with yours. So as far as that goes, I will simply say, you dont know me, you know nothing about me, but rest assured, I am someone who practices as they preach.

You may not see it the same as me. That's fine. I have plenty of experience with vets who have a REAL idea of what it means to have respect for their fellow servicemen.

I never once said you shouldnt be proud of your service, nor have I ever even implied that anyone who serves their country should be ashamed of it. I called no one a baby killer. I simply argue that there is NO BASIS for a claim that being drafted makes lives better. In time of defense, sometimes there is no other option. If you think we are in one of those times, or that vietnam was one of those times, than your issues go far deeper than this conversation.

Explain to me how fighting to keep people from being FORCED into a combat zone where it would be KILL OR BE KILLED is self-righteous....It sure seems to me that anyone who thinks it is their privelage to force people to literally give their lives for something that is in no way following with the simple ideas that this country was founded on, well, seems to me that is much more self righteous than wanting people to have the choice of whether they do it or not....

The V.A., while yes, it is better than nothing, is broken. To argue that is folly. It is agreed on even by those who run it.

And, in closing, I'd like to ask...what did I accuse you of?



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by Sleuth
reply to post by apolluwn
 

So, is that a no? Are you one of those people who will ride on the backs on those who have, but insist that you and yours should be exempt?


I never said anything about exemption, but I challenge you to prove me wrong.

Are you one of those people that expects answers to questions without ever engaging the relevant questions posed to themselves?

Stop dodging. Either you can support your argument, or not.

Your dodge and deflect tactics are the typical death throws of a lost argument.

Are you really trying to argue that the opinion of someone who has served (in the military, [I'm guessing since you not specified directly what you mean by "serving your country".]) is more valid when applied directly to freedom and liberty?

This is absolutely fallacious.

Furthermore, you are completely ignoring the flaws inherent to this type of questioning.

I could give you any answer I would like to either garner support for my position (like you... which despite the theatrics doesn't make your argument any more valid), or provoke you into debate about your character (of which, I will remind you that I have not even begun to touch the surface of the [lack of] character, nor discipline that you have shown thus far when you use it as one of your sole arguments towards your position of "fixing" the children of this country.) You would be none the wiser.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by FiatLux
 



I can't dispute your statement either. We are a violent being, no matter how much we try to cover it up.



posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic
 


I object to your entire post. I didn't accuse you of anything other than standing on your soapbox, pathetically and self-righteously spewing bilge, aka doodleysquat, upon ATS. You say "I am someone who practices as they preach". It's quite apparent.

This was a general post to the detractors of the US veterans and you decide to jump on me and my post. Did I say something to upset you? Get over it.

Your entire response was non-responsive and a bunch of hogwash, as I said before.

If you're asking me what I have done to better the lives of veterans, I think I should have the equal right to ask you what have you done. So, what else have you done other than having experiences with "REAL" veterans, implying my friends and I, are not. Takes alot of gall, for a non-hacker!!!

I believe any true veteran reading our posts might tell you, at best, to stand down. At worst, you would be picking yourself up off the ground. I have 6 close friends, all Vietnam Vet's. We fish, hunt, and vacation together. All have families and enjoy together, the time we have left. Each one of them would step up and defend vet's. I dare you to talk this crap in front of any of them.

I prefer the company of veterans, male or female than the general population. I know I can count on anyone of them, for anything, and they can count on me for the same. Can't say the same about the regular folks. I guess, birds of a feather stick together.

One of my hunting buddy's, a Marine Captain, commanded one of the last helicopters to leave the roof of the US Embassy in Saigon. He just made it out with the embassy's American flag under one arm, and a M-16 in the other. Next time I see him, I'll tell him he wasn't a "REAL" Marine and give him your screen name here on ATS.
You'll enjoy chatting with him on U2U. He's quite persuasive. He is the real deal.

As far as what I have done in my life, it is posted here in an earlier post. I think the founders of this country would give me their nod of approval. I have done my fair share.

Same goes for my opinion of the draft and our "leaders". They're posted on an earlier page. I suggest you read it.

So you understand: I AM AGAINST THE DRAFT AND I DO NOT WANT ANY MOTHER'S SON OR DAUGHTER TO DIE FOR THIS GROUP OF LEADERS. You got it now?

Again I ask you, what have you done in your life that gives you the right to attack a veteran, speaking up for vets, the way you did. You can't say what you said to a vet from my era and not be made to answer for it. Any era for that matter.

We've paid our dues and we don't like taking s**t from "Jody's". We just ask that you show a little respect. Next time, pick on somebody your own size, big boy. I think "REAL" vet's are a bit out of your league. Best stick to the non-hackers. You have no credibility with me.

One thing about veterans you should remember: Those that have walked the walk, don't do much of the talk the talk. Only when you piss one off, do folks realize they've made a mistake.

I will be awaiting your response, at attention, in front of your soapbox, dressed in the proper military attire for the occasion. Shower shoes, poncho liner, and steel pot, no liner.











[edit on 11-8-2008 by Oldnslo]

[edit on 11-8-2008 by Oldnslo]





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