a draft would be the best thing for this generation

Wasn't the whole reason for those generations past fighting in all of those bloody wars so that their children would not have to?
And shouldn't it be a badge of accomplishment that they can enjoy themselves and don't have to worry about being drafted.

Is anyone in this forum living in the real world? We don't live in a perfect world. We're never going to live in a perfect world.

Man is barely civilized. The hard fact is that he's not done making war yet. As a nation, we need to be prepared for that.

You keep on walking around with your head in the clouds and see where it gets your country. Like it or not, you're a citizen. When the crap hits the fan, someone has got to stand up and protect it when the rest of the planet comes knocking.

What I'm talking about is equally sharing that burden - rich and poor, men and women. What will you do if your country ceases to exist because you didn't give a wit about preserving it? Where will you go, stranger in a strange land?

The founders fought long and hard to give us what we have and you're ready to throw it all away for cheap sentimentality and unrealistic Utopian theories.

I'm in mourning for my country. She is dying and many of the people who have benefited from her fruits are standing idly by while it happens, saying, "I want my freedoms, but I don't want to help keep them. Someone else can do that for me." You all want to live in a Gimme nation. Well, who the hell do you suppose gets that done?

Americans used to be made of sterner stuff. Now they'd rather wave their little signs in the street and armchair quarterback everyone else who still subscribes to the belief that we can be a great country again if everyone pulls their weight.

I see now that I've been kidding myself. I see now that America isn't dying. It's already dead.

Conscripts don't make the best troops. I wouldn't want someone in the suck with me who didn't want to be there, would you?

Instead of finding a solution to the modern youth's laziness, why not attack it from it's beginning? Blame the media and bad parents.

reply to post by Sleuth


Yeah see the problem with that is we fabricated some wars that aren't keeping us free. So that pretty much draws a line between real patriots and war mongers rather clearly.

reply to post by Sleuth


Yes our founding fathers fought to give us the greatest nation in the world, and the politicians and corporate America are working to take it away from us. We have more to fear from our domestic enimies than we do from our foriegn ones right now. They have already taken away so much of what our founding fathers put into place tp protect us, it's disgraceful and more of a slap in the face of our founding fathers than any young person that chooses not to enlist in the military to go fight wars that have nothing to do with us.


Name the last war that america fought that actually had anything to do with protecting our freedoms.

Believe me there are plenty of Americans that will stand up and fight if the rest of the world ever comes knocking with the intention of taking away our freedoms and many that will give up their lives. Maybe you've just become to jaded to see it.

The freedoms that we lose won't be due to people not enlisting in the military, but rather due to the politicians that are so intent on taking them away from us, politicians that want to sign treaties that would null and void our 2nd amendment, take away our sorviegnity, etc.

Originally posted by Sleuth

I'm in mourning for my country. She is dying and many of the people who have benefited from her fruits are standing idly by while it happens, saying, "I want my freedoms, but I don't want to help keep them. Someone else can do that for me." You all want to live in a Gimme nation. Well, who the hell do you suppose gets that done?

Americans used to be made of sterner stuff. Now they'd rather wave their little signs in the street and armchair quarterback everyone else who still subscribes to the belief that we can be a great country again if everyone pulls their weight.

I see now that I've been kidding myself. I see now that America isn't dying. It's already dead.

I agree with you completely, down the the very last word. Especially after reading most of the posts referring to our Vet's as mind-numbed robots and mind-controlled killing machines.

Well they couldn't be more wrong.

The day may not be far off when your idealistic world turns into reality as the NWO comes aknockin' at your door. On that day, you will pray that someone will take mercy upon you and save your dispicable hide. That person, just may be one of our 25 million veterans that, ONCE AGAIN, step up to protect you, your family, and the Constitution of the united states of America.

I would rather die covering the backs of Jenna, Sleuth, or Jerico than live in a world full of people who show no respect, compassion, or understanding of what this countries veterans have sacrificed to give you the "freedom" and opportunity to urinate on their service and their graves. Shame on you.

Oldnslo - RA1886XXXX - MOS 67N20 - US Army 1968-1971

**Edit to correct spelling**


[edit on 9-8-2008 by Oldnslo]

Originally posted by Sleuth


I'm in mourning for my country. She is dying and many of the people who have benefited from her fruits are standing idly by while it happens, saying, "I want my freedoms, but I don't want to help keep them. Someone else can do that for me." You all want to live in a Gimme nation. Well, who the hell do you suppose gets that done?

You do realize that you are moarning for your country while advocating the disease that's making her sick, right? Does the word hypocrissy mean anything to you?

Truth be told, as long as the only thing that matters to you is "your country", it doesn't really matter. But that's a debate for a different thread.

Originally posted by Oldnslo

Originally posted by Sleuth

I'm in mourning for my country. She is dying and many of the people who have benefited from her fruits are standing idly by while it happens, saying, "I want my freedoms, but I don't want to help keep them. Someone else can do that for me." You all want to live in a Gimme nation. Well, who the hell do you suppose gets that done?

Americans used to be made of sterner stuff. Now they'd rather wave their little signs in the street and armchair quarterback everyone else who still subscribes to the belief that we can be a great country again if everyone pulls their weight.

I see now that I've been kidding myself. I see now that America isn't dying. It's already dead.

I agree with you completely, down the the very last word. Especially after reading most of the posts referring to our Vet's as mind-numbed robots and mind-controlled killing machines.

Well they couldn't be more wrong.

The day may not be far off when your idealistic world turns into reality as the NWO comes aknockin' at your door. On that day, you will pray that someone will take mercy upon you and save your dispicable hide. That person, just may be one of our 25 million veterans that, ONCE AGAIN, step up to protect you, your family, and the Constitution of the united states of America.

I would rather die covering the backs of Jenna, Sleuth, or Jerico than live in a world full of people who show no respect, compassion, or understanding of what this countries veterans have sacrificed to give you the "freedom" and opportunity to urinate on their service and their graves. Shame on you.

Oldnslo - RA1886XXXX - MOS 67N20 - US Army 1968-1971

**Edit to correct spelling**


[edit on 9-8-2008 by Oldnslo]

What's sad is, as a veteran, you should be advocating for proper treatment of the troops we ALREADY HAVE, as opposed to those that you want to force into it.

You think you show any respect for those that served with you? Do you fight to fix the atrocious V.A. system? Do you campaign for more benefits for troops, as opposed to keeping them so low as an attempt to keep retention rates up? Do you protest unjust and illegal military occupations where your fellow servicement are sent to die, under the guise of protecting the freedom which was never threatened?

No? That seems more disrespectful that someone standing up and fighting so that more innocent young men are not sent to kill and be killed.

It seems like many of the younger (draft age) posters here do not want to be drafted. Like it or not you have, for the most part already agreed to it by registering with selective service. The Draft is to be used in times of crisis for our Country. No one wants to be drafted, ask most WWII vets, while there are still a few left alive. In tough times, we must, as a country, devote all of our resources to war efforts, including our most precious resource, our young men and women.

I don't advocate a draft in times of relative peace, thanks to our forefathers, we in the USA have the luxury of having an all volunteer armed forces. That being said, in dire times for our nation, a draft is a necessary evil. What irks many here on this board is that the youth of today doesn't seem to think anything is worth fighting for and protecting. With this kind of attitude in WWII, we would have sit back idly while Germany and Japan ran over most of the civilized world. There are things worth fighting for and yes dying for. I pray that we will never have to have a draft again, I have three young boys. However, if it ever becomes necessary, a draft is the fairest way of "sharing the burden".

Wait I've got an even better Idea.

How about this, when you strap a AR15 to Bush and Cheney, put them out there dodging car bombs and "insurgents". Instead of sitting in the oval office *snip*and sucking the last of the lifeblood out of the average american citizen. I'll go after them. Sounds fair.

Mod Edit:Civility & Decorum are Expected.Please review this link

[edit on 10-8-2008 by GAOTU789]

reply to post by pavil



Why must it be our children we send off to war? If it`s adults that are making these wars, then let the adults fight them. Why run the risk of these young people being killed and never being able to grow and have a family of their own? I would much rather be sent off myself and run the risk of being killed then to subject my children to something like that. They deserve better then that from adults, they deserve the right to grow up and have a life, not have the conflicts that our government gets into placed upon such young shoulders.

Originally posted by FiatLux
reply to post by pavil

 

Why must it be our children we send off to war? If it`s adults that are making these wars, then let the adults fight them. Why run the risk of these young people being killed and never being able to grow and have a family of their own? I would much rather be sent off myself and run the risk of being killed then to subject my children to something like that. They deserve better then that from adults, they deserve the right to grow up and have a life, not have the conflicts that our government gets into placed upon such young shoulders.

Not to sound crass, but war has always been a young man's battle for the most part. They are best suited for doing what is necessary in war. For example would you rather be on the side of 50 18-30 year olds or 50 30-50 year olds going into a battle? The younger a soldier is, physically they are stronger and more fit ect. That is what you want in war, which is why from the beginnings of human civilization, the younger men have fought the wars. The only advantage age has is experience, which is why the officer corps is usually made of of middle aged and older soldiers.

reply to post by pavil


Sure, it may be the young men who get sent to war, but it`s the old kings that started them. So let the old ones fight it. As far as who I would rather be with, the 30-50 year olds. Yea, we may be slower, but we have wisdom and experience on our side.

I stand by my post.

I prefer the "All Volunteer" military. The last person I want covering my back is someone that doesn't want to be there. Nothing personal.

No way, no how do I advocate anything other than showing proper respect for those that are or have been in the military. Period. That was the main reason for my post. If you want to attacked me for standing up for the Vet's, have at it. I can handle it. I felt it needed to be done.

I am totally against those who control our government and its puppets in congress. Their past, their intentions and possible actions, at home and abroad. Everyone should be concerned with what is happening to this country. I don't want any Mother's son or daughter to die for this group.

I need to get more involved??? I work 6 days a week, pay taxes, raised 2 kids, vote in every election, FAX and email my congresswoman, and my 2 Senators, even wrote Bush a letter. What the heck else you want me to do. Geez.

Now back to us Vet's.

My cousin, and a good friend since we were little kids, died while under the care of the Veterans Administration. Both died from exposure to Agent Orange while in South Vietnam. My best Bud had a second angioplathy with the VA last week. I have one of their cards in my wallet, so don't give me any guff about the VA. Sorry, there is nothing you can tell me about the VA. I have direct 1st hand experience. It sure beats having nothing.

My best Bud, mentioned above, was drafted in 1968 and as an 11Bravo was assigned to the 9th Infantry Division. He was so against the idea of war and the Vietnam "Conflict" he had to fight in, he filed as a Conscientious Objector. Something not done in a combat area in 1968. But, regardless of his beliefs, each mission he grabbed his M-16 and went out on patrol. He could not let his comrades down. It was an obligation he had to fulfill. He did this every day until he was blown off a dike into a rice paddy. He was lucky to have survived. I am most greatful!! I can't think of a finer human being or a better friend.

So you folks will just have to pardon me for having the utmost respect for Vet's like my best Bud and all those who serve today and have served in the past. The last thing they deserve are some of the comments I've read in this thread. Even the homeless Vet's "living under the bridge" deserves the same respect. Especially the one's "under the bridge.

Just one question to the military detractors. What are you going to do someday if your 22 year old, college educated, son or daughter comes up to you and says "Dad, Mom, I want to join the Navy and go to flight school. I want to fly jets. It's something I've always wanted to do"? How are you going to tell your son or daughter, no? Yeah, you'd better think about that one. Funny how things can come back to haunt you.

**Edited for spelling**

[edit on 10-8-2008 by Oldnslo]

reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic


cautiouslypessimistic, the only thing that's sad are your posts. Climb down off your soapbox and quit with the accusations. What have you done with your life other than pump out this bildge on ATS.???

As far as real respect goes, I doubt you have any, it sure doesn't show trying to put me down for speaking up for Vet's. Big man you are. Playing to the crowd.

I'm proud of my service. I could care less what some "Jody" has to say.

Your quote to your "fans", "No? That seems more disrespectful that someone standing up and fighting so that more innocent young men are not sent to kill and be killed". Utter hogwash - You got to be kidding!! So full of self-righteousness, its pathetic. Vet's know the cost of war, first hand. I doubt you know doodleysquat.

Like I said, what have you done to better man's lot in life other than make false accusation about me here on ATS. Come on, Big Boy, lets hear it.

Originally posted by Sleuth
Scored low on the comprehension, eh? I've thoroughly explained my position in my posts in this thread.

You are missing that this does affect us now. Right now at this moment. We are in an infinite war on terrorism with an invisible enemy with no country and no government.

If you would to put my reading comprehension up for ridicule then maybe you should explain yourself. Your "position" has been anything but thoroughly explained. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that "if your don't support a draft you are [a/the] coward/gutless/lacking male genitalia/enemy" is not a position. It is an insult.

A childish insult from someone who apparently lacks the mental capacity to state a real answer besides "Oh my god! The kids these days are so [insert same old tired rubbish]".

You don't even seem to understand the underlying mechanics of our Selective Service System. So how could you possibly have a valid position much less a "thoroughly explained" one about the matter?

Originally posted by Sleuth
We may be involved in a war right now, but the military is responsible for more than just lobbing bombs and bullets in the here and now.

Oh, yeah? Is that right? Now tell me what does this have to do with reinstating a draft right now? We have plenty of service men and women when we are not in a war. This is what you fail to see. We only draft when we are trying to rapidly increase the size of the military. If they are forced into the military now then all they will be doing is sending and receiving bombs and bullets.

So tell me what is it we need a draft for then? You can't seem to decide on what your "thoroughly explained position" is. Is it because we need to have a measure to prevent unnecessary wars? Is it to build character and give responsibility? Is it to protect the country? Come on pick something. What are you on drugs or something? You can't even decide why you want it. How the hell am I supposed to know what in god's name you are talking about if not even you do? Is it a puzzle? I'm sorry. I forgot my damn decoder ring.

Originally posted by Sleuth
Kids these days have not known adversity. They have not suffered.

Oh, is that right? Well then just look at the state of the nation now. How about the economy, the insurmountable debt the country is in, the jobs moving out of the country, the thought that social security won't be around. I could go on and on and on. You want those kids to suffer? They probably will, and you will get your filthy little wish.

Originally posted by Sleuth
Mandatory national or military service puts every citizen on the same playing field. No one is better than anyone else. The privileged serve beside the poor, as they should. Everyone is equal. The poor can be proud of their accomplishments and use what they learn to leave their poverty behind. The privileged can learn some humility.

What you don't seem to understand is that mandatory military service in the United States has always taken form as a national draft and has been used only in war time besides one occasion, but we ended up in war less than a year later anyways.

I am sorry, but I fail to see how a woman who doesn't even have to register for selective service can be so favorable towards this system. Every citizen on the same playing field? My left foot.

Unless you are living in absolute denial then you should understand that the "wealthy and privileged" have found innumerable ways of getting out of service and news flash, baby. Woman aren't required to enlist with selective services.

Are you actually suggesting that we would come up with a new way? Wow. What are you smoking? I don't know what it is, but the side effects are obviously vivid hallucinations, delusional thinking, and an undue sense of accomplishment.

Maybe you don't realize this but all males are required to register with the Selective Service. I did. Every other American male here in all likelihood did when they turned 18. They can draft whenever they really want to. Get it?

Your cause is so damn noble, though. Everyone on an even playing field. How laughable. When you finally understand the underlying mechanics of the system we use here in America then you can form an opinion and come tell us about it.

Until then how about you think about how you are going to organize a movement to include everyone in your model draft/mandatory service?

Go ahead.

Tell me how you are going to convince Washington to toss out the system that has been in place since basically the Civil War for your brand new nifty little system?

Tell me how you plan to get everyone to rally together to add women into the system and tell me how you are going to create ways that would make it impossible for the "privileged and wealthy" as well as the fortunate son's and daughter's of politicians to weasel out of it?

How about you tell me how we going to pay for it?

How about you draft a resolution and petition the government with your system?

You have all the ideas and none of the answers to the problems.

There are much bigger problems than what you perceive as disrespectful teenagers that need to "learn some discipline and responsibility in the military". You even admit to the problems with this idea, but it's so easy to separate the military, who execute exective orders, from the government, isn't it?

But, alas, you are so valiant. Amidst the corruption of our corporate for-profit war machine there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Loving your country is one thing, but never forget that
This is a country of the people, by the people, for the people.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Your fervent nationalism would make Karl Marx proud. In case you forget, this country was founded on individuals freedoms. If you really cared about this country you would fight for those freedoms and not fight to deny them from kids.

But, I'll tell you what, noble princess... Start working to fix it from the top down and then come tell us about your noble draft idea. By the way, best of luck getting to the top. Be sure to hold on firmly because it is a hell of a fall back to the bottom.


[edit on 8/10/2008 by apolluwn]

Look, the only way to true freedom so you don't have to fight is awaken to the 'debt money' the bankers have tricked you into accepting.

Everyone in this thread should first read through this website and get some damn education first. Once you understand that your money isn't real and that it is just an entry into a computer system (not real money that is lent to you from another person who deposited it, which you take, but instead money created from out of thin air allowing banks to create an economic crisis when they choose) then you can start changing your situation and stop killing people to survive.

www.fdrs.org...

Take a deep breath. Read. Understand how your money system works. Pay off the debts first. Then help others to fight the nwo who just wants you to kill other people by arming your enemies to allow them to create these wars that they will profit from and (using those profits) attempt to imprison you even more. (until you can't give any more and they just kill you by saying you were a terrorist)

They are evil people. You don't want to feed the monster by giving away your wealth to it. You want to starve it. Their money which gives them the power over you (and the whole reason we have a conspiracy with the one dollar bill that has the masonic pyramid on it) is coming from you the tax payers, and they are using your money to enslave you, but yet they are not answerable to the government who is reliant on them to print the currency.

Until you guys solve your debt, you won't have freedom.

You think killing another person to steal their countries resources is actually going to free you because after they die they leave behind goodies?? It's not. It's just you not realising you were tricked a long time ago by the bad guys who came up with a system where they could keep you in debt forever using the fractional reserve system that allows them to cause whatever chaos they want by triggering it at whenever time they wish, causing you to have to go and kill and steal from others to sustain your lives. (playing into the hands of them even more as they get new lands to bring into their debt money system)

You lack of freedom is really all based on the whole idea that your money system was designed to always keep you in a state of needing to borrow more money than you can afford to actually pay back. And then through that slavery, they can manipulate your life by denying you the basics needed to live. So what's a person to do? They go to war like a dog that obeys its masters training to go and kill X people whose government doesn't want to follow the debt money idea. Kill whoever you need to in order to 'persuade' them to follow. Repeat until the whole world is enslaved by the money system and you are valued only by your materialistic worth like a simple farm animal. Ask yourself really where does the money really come from? Who is going to pay all the debt off? Why do the globalists want to unite the nations so much, so that the whole world follows this system? It's so they can manipulate and control you at every level of your life? Both wealthy and poor. That includes who wars with who, when the wars start, which countries are allowed to develop etc

This is why it is so important to have freedom from the debt so they can't make you keep having to borrow borrow borrow which gives greedy people who don't live within their means a false sense of security which allows them to fall into debt (leading to tax payers footing the bill) and then causing the next generation who can't pay it, to have to borrow even more money yet again causing a vicious cycle. At some point people can just blame when the real issue is right there in front of you.

They pit one group against another: rich against poor, black against white, old against young, man against women, employer against employee, etc and take advantage of the confusion so you don't know focus on the real issue, which is that they tricked you.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by Snake Plisskin]

reply to post by apolluwn

You talk pretty big, for a 26-year-old. Have you served your country yet?

Originally posted by FiatLux
reply to post by pavil

 

Sure, it may be the young men who get sent to war, but it`s the old kings that started them. So let the old ones fight it. As far as who I would rather be with, the 30-50 year olds. Yea, we may be slower, but we have wisdom and experience on our side.

The only problem with that is that, most probably the younger ones would still have to fight, as the "old kings" as you put it, get slaughtered. It just seems to me that you would rather just surrender rather than fight, some things are worth fighting for. You want to send your best troops out for most battles, it makes sense to have younger troops. They are stronger, faster, easier to train and mold into a group, have more aggressive tendencies ect.

Sorry you don't see that, but every civilization in the world has found that out the hard way.

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes … known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.… No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
— James Madison, Political Observations, 1795

World military expenditure in 2006 is estimated to have reached $1204 billion in current dollars

www.globalissues.org...


Now just imagine what that money could do to end suffering. Wars are about the elite not about the people. It's the biggest scam going under the ruse of patriotism.