a draft would be the best thing for this generation, page 13
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 10 times


reply posted on 8-8-2008 @ 04:17 AM by FiatLux
reply to post by caballero


Man, do I agree with you on this. How can someone say that it`s going to make you a better person, if that person runs the risk of being killed? Yea, when your dead, that`s much better now isn`t it? And if your not killed, you either come out of it with your mind intact, or you don`t. So, who wants to run that risk?


reply posted on 8-8-2008 @ 06:43 AM by Sleuth
reply to post by apolluwn

No kidding. Learn that in history class yesterday? I knew it 40 years ago.

The point is that the gutless get nowhere.

Originally posted by ipsedixit
With a draft there would be no war in Iraq.

Finally, someone is paying attention.


reply posted on 8-8-2008 @ 01:13 PM by Jenna
Originally posted by caballero
Not really a teenager or a child can have a far better understanding of the true values in life, experience determines maturity yes but like I said, and I guess you didnt see, a child who is brought up in a war stricken area will have the capacity for a much better understanding of the value of life.


Unfortunately we weren't talking about children who grow up in war stricken areas. If we were you would be correct. We were, or at least I was, talking about the American teenager who, in the majority of cases, knows and cares about nothing aside from what video game is coming out and when they are going out with their friends.

I dont think you understood, I was saying that your friends must not have seen combat because they enjoyed the army. Most Human Beings who have seen combat and have killed hundreds of other Human Beings, I Hope, would feel great regret and wouldnt try to advertise the military. If they dont feel that regret than they are one of two things Untainted (they havent seen combat) or are mindless killing machines.


Actually, I do have friends who have seen combat. They still do not regret joining the military. They generally don't talk about being shot at or shooting at other people. Why? Because they do feel regret about shooting at people, whether they hit them or not. They don't feel the need to describe the horrific things they have seen and/or done and I don't feel the need to press for information simply because it would be a rude and callous thing to do. Every person who has seen combat in a war has their own personal demons they bring back with them and no one has the right to demand details or to question them about how they feel about it.

I know for a fact a protest wouldnt work. The basis of what I was saying in the last part of that post was that why would you want to force kids, our nations FUTURE into war and make things worse? I was saying that this plan is very idiotic and would cause far more problems than it would fix.


Had you read my original post in this thread, or my posts concerning the war on any thread for that matter, you would know that I do not and have not ever agreed with this war. Not once have I endorsed sending anyone to die in a foreign country due to the lies we were told by our government. What I have said though, is that I fully support the military. I personally see nothing wrong with each generation contributing something to or country besides being the best at a video game. I also stated in this thread that I wouldn't agree with a draft, but some form of civil service would do the majority of todays teenagers a heck of a lot of good.

Listen Yes my generation is stupid, lazy, and very greedy. I dont like it I hate my generation I wish we knew that material objects arent what life is about, I wish I could change my generation. But to force us into the service? It would never work, It would only lead us further down the path of oppression, hate, and greed. So if you want to help change my generation find a plan that actually helps. Find a plan that doesnt sound stupid off the bat.


Finally something we agree on. As I have stated numerous times, I wouldn't want anyone forced into the military. Were you to ask anyone in the military I can almost guarantee you that none of them would either. The reason why is because if you are in a life or death situation, you don't want someone there who doesn't want to be there. You don't want the guy watching your back to be someone who is going to run, not pay attention, or not do their job. That causes people to get killed when they otherwise might live. Our volunteer military works, why mess with it?



edit to fix quote tags

[edit on 8-8-2008 by Jenna]


reply posted on 8-8-2008 @ 02:40 PM by cautiouslypessimistic
Originally posted by jerico65
Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic
A purple heart can be given for being in a car accident. Nice try though.


Bullsh*t. Purple Heart is for combat wounds. Sorry, Gus, nice try.



Originally posted by cautiouslypessimisticNo I dont know you, but I know plenty of people who make outrageous claims such as the ones you are. And they all "know somebody" who coroborates their story. But yet, we never meet that "somebody"..



Well, believe me or not. I really don't give a crap. Not losing any sleep here.

Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic As for your book, I may read it, sound kind of interesting actually. But do you really think one book can prove wrong the overwhelming majority of data out there on the subject? There are always going to be different points of view, but you are going to have to come up with more than 1 book to disprove what most every researcher out there agrees on...


Whatever. Read the book. I have one question: How do you explain the 45 year old guy claiming to be a Vietnam vet?

[

"

Yawn...bring up some more stale talking points, k? So because some homeless people claim to be vets and arent, all must not be? Not following you there. Go ahead and search the V.A. statistics.

Speaking of the V.A., there's a whole other set of issues in this brilliant idea. The V.A. is broken. We cannot take care of the vets we already have. But I guess thats not an issue of concern, you know, how we take care of them AFTER we force them to kill.

And for the record, driving through any area considered even the slightest bit hostile, actively or not, is considered combat. So yes, a purple heart could be given for car accidents.

I do have to say though, the "whatever" response....very eloquent

[edit on 8/8/2008 by cautiouslypessimistic]


reply posted on 8-8-2008 @ 04:53 PM by caballero
reply to post by Jenna


Well I dont know why we have been butting heads if we are on the same side. My apologies. But I just want to add one more thing, dont take it into offense. Every generation is the same or at least the past few have been the same, The sixties teens were doin drugs and going against all forms of authority. The seventies pretty much the same thing, the eighties VIDEO GAMES!! Drugs sex and rock and roll, the nineties were the same, up until today all kids have wanted in the past decades is sex, drugs, music, and newly introduced video games. So how can one generation tell us to be different? You all did the same stuff as people in my generation!!

FiatLux-
It isnt worth the risk. this whole idea of ofrced service is idiotic and came from a nutjob, I mean if you want to help us help us. Dont try and help us but actually make stuff worse. You know?


reply posted on 8-8-2008 @ 04:54 PM by caballero
reply to post by alien



Ahaha! I dont think anyone has brought that up. That is the BEST idea so far though and its WAY easier than sending everyone into the service.


reply posted on 8-8-2008 @ 05:01 PM by jerico65
Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic
Yawn...bring up some more stale talking points, k? So because some homeless people claim to be vets and arent, all must not be? Not following you there. Go ahead and search the V.A. statistics.

Speaking of the V.A., there's a whole other set of issues in this brilliant idea. The V.A. is broken. We cannot take care of the vets we already have. But I guess thats not an issue of concern, you know, how we take care of them AFTER we force them to kill.

And for the record, driving through any area considered even the slightest bit hostile, actively or not, is considered combat. So yes, a purple heart could be given for car accidents.

I do have to say though, the "whatever" response....very eloquent


*yawn* Back to get schooled again? Well, I'm giving a clinic and my clinics are free.

You can't get a Purple Heart for a car accident. Driving your Hummer, IED goes off, you wreck and are hurt: Yep, that's a Purple Heart. Driving your Hummer, take your eyes off the road reaching for the last Cheeto in the bag, and you wreck: No Purple Heart and probably a visit to the commanding officer.

Nope, I didn't claim that all guys that are homeless and claim to be vets are lying. I'm just questioning the numbers. What are they using for proof? A DD214? You do know that there is a nice blackmarket going for copies of these, so guys that didn't serve can get benefits from the government?

And I'm in total agreement that the VA is broken. Been broken for years and the only time the subject to fix it comes up seems to be during election years.


reply posted on 8-8-2008 @ 05:24 PM by FiatLux
reply to post by caballero


You know, I have to look back on my own life, and think of how blessed I was. I was born after WW2. So I was to young for Korea, then nam came along, my number was almost called, then they stopped the draft, I worried after that if we were to get into another war, then maybe my number would be called. I was lucky enough it wasn`t. The whole time growing up, I lived on a farm and I know what hard work is. But what I found so interesting and hard to understand, is the concept that we are given free will by our maker, but yet we have those in power over us who can take that free will away from us by forcing a draft on us, saying either you go into the service or go to prison. Oh yea, that`s free will now isn`t it? Instead of having a government who forces it`s will on the people, it should be the other way around. In other words, we don`t work for the government, the government works for us, as it was meant to be. So as far as i`m concerned caballero, I would trust the future of this country with people like you, over the type of government we now have, any day of the week.



[edit on 8-8-2008 by FiatLux]


reply posted on 9-8-2008 @ 01:33 AM by BlasteR
Originally posted by Mdv2
Originally posted by Slothrop
ever since vietnam, which was a necessary if unpopular war,


Elaborate why this was a necessary war? It was one of the most pointless wars in history.

Apart from defeat, this is what your ignorant war has caused:


First of all, this isn't MY war. And it certainly isn't Slothrop's.
It is BUSH'S war. Just like the aptly named episode of Frontline entitled "Bush's War" about the same subject. The american people never really had a say. ANd at the time we probably COULD have said something, it didn't matter. Because Sept.11th + falsified intelligence was a tactic used by the Bush administration to win the hearts of the American people and convince them that war was the right thing at the time. This was Bush's war from the very beginning. Very FEW people in government actually voted against invading Iraq. And those few against it gave extremely heart-wrenching accounts of what they believed what was to come right on the floors of Congress (and they were right).

When the Bush administration couldn't find puppets among the ranks to do their bidding, they fired them and got people who would act as pawns in government to do their bidding. This is the most unjustified war in American history. And it doesn't help that most people refuse to hear about it. It's so much easier to go on with daily life and ignore the kids and men dying for our freedom on the field of battle. It's completely insane!

A photo like that gets people's attention because it is something visual people can identify with directly. But what doesn't seem to get people's attention are the thousands who have died and will never be in a photo ever again. And isn't it funny how when thousands of soldiers were being killed in Iraq, President Bush was in the best of spirits. hundreds of polls have shown that this is the most unpopular president in American history. yet they still blabber on justifying their actions because they are arrogant politicians who don't think they have to answer to anybody. But the last time I checked this is a country for the people and by the people. Will these people ever realize that?

And what about the proliferation of civilian security contractors who make limitless profits via our tax dollars for a war that should have never been waged in the first place. I NEVER VOTED FOR THAT!! I feel like I'm in the friggin twilight zone!

-ChriS

[edit on 9-8-2008 by BlasteR]


reply posted on 9-8-2008 @ 03:58 AM by caballero
reply to post by FiatLux

Thats very kind friend, I wish more than anything that more people in my generation actually cared enough to actually fix this country.
However if I ever had the chance to fix this country i would bring the freedoms of the people back.



reply posted on 9-8-2008 @ 04:31 AM by Mdv2
reply to post by BlasteR


Blaster... it was about the Vietnam war, not about the war in Iraq or Afghanistan... With 'yours' I mean America(ns) in general. After all it is America that went to Vietnam.

I am not asking him who is responsible, but why he is of opinion that the Vietnam war was of importance.

How the hell could you advocate a draft in a country where the leaders are incapable and irresponsible, and who are giving the world nothing but problems. A draft so they can take the life of more innocent people?

No thanks, enough innocent people have died on various sides. Imagine a lunatic with a massive that the US could have with a draft going to war with Iran!







[edit on 9-8-2008 by Mdv2]


reply posted on 9-8-2008 @ 04:42 AM by BlasteR
reply to post by caballero


The problem is that politics is so socially polarized that you can never make everyone happy. Where one form of legislation would be seen as a good thing overall, it will always be seen as the opposite by someone else. Corruption in Washington is another major concern (at least of mine). And when we have 40 year veteran Senator from Alaska willing to accept 250,000 dollars in gifts from a grooming oil company, what does that say about the political system in general?

A draft wouldn't be all bad right now as I said before. But it probably isn't the best idea right now. Especially since we have an extremely capable, extremely well-manned all-volunteer military right now. What we need is a revolutionary change in American politics to get us back on the right track economically, fix the healthcare system, the antiquated system of economic oversight we currently have in place, and the energy debacle. That if it isn't already too late.

As I have stated before in other threads, these economic and energy situations we're in right now could be artificially created as a means of creating public leverage and support for the formation of the NAU. If people are desperate enough, they will see the NAU as a way out of a difficult economic situation. Especially seeing how the energy crisis is intricately linked with the economic situation we are in right now because of the price of oil and gas.

I mean, look how the politicians are completely ignoring the mexican border situation. It's completely mind-boggling, and this kind of influx of drugs and illegal immigrants is going to continue because the decision makers thousands of miles away aren't even willing to acknowledge there's even a problem. This president has literally given this country to the illegals. And what does that say about America when honest, hardworking people legally come to America for a better life while all of this is going on. It's literally sickening... and the lack of attention the border situation has gained in Washington is inexcusable.

I believe that the hidden agenda of the global elite to form the NAU (the next step to a one-world government) has played right into their hands up to this point. And our leaders in Washington probably see it as a waste of time, money and resources to enforce the border of our sovereign country when the NAU is going to be created anyway and join the countries together. As far as I can tell, that is really the only explanation for this other than complete ignorance and stupidity.

-ChriS


[edit on 9-8-2008 by BlasteR]


reply posted on 9-8-2008 @ 05:34 AM by apolluwn
reply to post by Sleuth


Learned that in history class today...? Wow. What a pompous ass condescending comment that was. I know just where you can put that smug attitude of yours, but in an attempt to maintain a little civility, and certainly more maturity than you I will not elaborate and shall leave it solely up to to your imagination.

If you wish to take pot shots at me then why don't you at least show that you have the common sense to not compare those that fought in the Revolutionary War with those who would be against a current draft. Supposedly, you know the reasons behind the Revolutionary War, but you fail to see the difference between them and a draft that would, if enacted now, support a war overseas? Are you kidding me, or are you really just ignorant? Seriously.

You can throw your bogus "It's not just about Iraq" out there, but, please, enlighten me then. What else is it about? I don't see any other wars that we are fighting.

You want to talk about courage and cowardice, but you are sitting here and saying that being against a for-profit war machine is cowardice? Spare me, lady.

It takes a hell of a lot more courage to stand up for your own personal convictions than to blindly do what you are told.

Furthermore, anyone with a sane mind would know that if there was a real threat from another country that took form and threatened the freedom and sovereignty of our country there would not be a need for a draft. The men and women of this country would willingly fight to preserve our freedoms. Especially if it the conflict made its way onto our own soil.

It is also very easy for you to claim you'd do something... but... You see that? It's called a hypothetical conditional. Anyone can do it, and you guessed it... It doesn't mean a damn thing. It is time to get off your horse, lady.

It's pretty damn sad really that you are rubbing your voluntary service in everyone's face, especially in light of the fact you served in the 80's as a woman. I would be willing to bet the farm that you didn't see one lick of actual combat. So chances are you don't know what it is like either because guess what, ma'am?

When there is a draft it is because they are trying to rapidly increase the size of the military. They are going directly into what you in all likelihood never experienced. So, yeah, sure. It is perfectly alright to pluck 18 year olds straight out of high school and throw them into boot camp and then ship them straight off into combat.

Of course, you want to pull out the bogus argument that a draft would prevent unnecessary wars. This is absolutely ludicrous and bordering on pure insanity. I can't possibly think of a worse possible solution to this problem and in fact shows some of your character, or lack of it.

I can surely see that this has only to do with laziness on your part, that is, if this is truly your argument for a draft. You think that we shouldn't be in unnecessary wars, but are too lazy, yourself, to do anything about it. So, in effect, you just want to pawn it off on other people and their families so they will raise a stink to high hell to stop it.

Let's do it, though. We'll build character and a sense of responsibility, or we'll kill them trying. Pathetic.


reply posted on 9-8-2008 @ 07:44 AM by Sleuth
reply to post by apolluwn

Scored low on the comprehension, eh? I've thoroughly explained my position in my posts in this thread. You've been too lazy to read through it. Your failure to see the larger picture and to think long-range is not my problem.

We may be involved in a war right now, but the military is responsible for more than just lobbing bombs and bullets in the here and now.

Know Anthony Bourdain? Our navy rescued his butt and hundreds of others when Beirut went up the last time. This is one of the many functions our modern military performs every day. Watch "Deadliest Catch"? The Coast Guard plays a huge role in saving the lives of these civilian fisherman and hundreds of other people in distress off America's coasts.

It ain't all about Iraq.

Kids these days have not known adversity. They have not suffered. They do not understand what has been sacrificed for their freedoms. They have not tempered themselves in the fire. Consequently, they do not appreciate what they have here.

Mandatory national or military service puts every citizen on the same playing field. No one is better than anyone else. The privileged serve beside the poor, as they should. Everyone is equal. The poor can be proud of their accomplishments and use what they learn to leave their poverty behind. The privileged can learn some humility.

Want freedom? Earn it.
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