a draft would be the best thing for this generation

reply to post by Sleuth


People that fought in the Revolutionary War were fighting for their freedom from a tyrannical monarchy that sought to keep them dirt poor. This is much different than wars that are fought for business interests and to keep those who invested top dollar to help get politicians elected into office among oh so many other bad reasons.

If you can't see this then you are blind.



[edit on 8/8/2008 by apolluwn]

Anyone who seriously thinks that a draft is necessary to protect the country needs a nice good dose of reality.

What is the current threat that makes this so necessary? There is not one.

None of you could ever possibly convince me that if there ever was a threat that made its way to the soil of this country that every damn citizen in the country wouldn't fight to the death to protect it.


[edit on 8/8/2008 by apolluwn]

Originally posted by Wildbob77
reply to post by jprophet420

 

I guess that it's much better to have the affluent kids go off to college and train for their high paying jobs.

Let those without money find out what it's like to live on minimum wage with no health insurance. Forget jobs skills. Who needs them. You can just slide through life.

We already have this system. The people with money tend to have kids that will also be somewhat successful. The people without money don't do so well.

My family has done pretty well with the current system so there's no reason that we should change. I agree completely.

We do live on minimum wage and pay for our own health insurance, so take your condescending attitude and do something productive with it good sir.

Anyone with a library card can educate themselves. Most don't. I did and do. Thats called choice my friend. I went from 50k+ to minimum wage, I've had it both ways and speak from experience.

You can choose to do what you want. When you start making choices for me rather than options is when the line between democracy and tyrany gets crossed.

You do what you want, and you be ready to face the consequences of your choices. I'll do the same. We'll call it America, OK?

I could not read all the posts in this thread, so I appologise if this has already been brought up.
But it seems that a draft forces people to do what they don't want for the sake of the COMMON good.
Dosent that make the draft itself a form of communism?

People aren't as motivated these days to fight for positive change because they're quality of life isn't challenged as it was during the Vietnam draft days. People are distracted enough from the war in Iraq by everything in popular culture that people forget we have kids dying left and right for our freedom. Noone likes to hear the grim reality of what is going on over there because it's so easy to ignore it and move on with life.

People are much more concerned about the economy, the election, and the olympics than they are about the war itself. Look at the headlines on any MSM website and see what I mean. They'd rather talk about 33 pound cats, celebrities, etc..

The anti-war movement in the sixties was due in part because of the draft and because of the fact that the government suddenly had the power to completely turn people's world upside down by sending them into the military and into combat. The simple idea of that scared the bajeezaz out of people enough that they became collectively motivated for the anti-war purpose. At least in part.

People were so anti-government because of that spreading philosophy that swept the country. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. But it DID suddenly get everyone's attention. You don't see college students protesting like they did back then, that's for sure..

So, in a way, a draft would be a positive influence on young people and just people in general because it somewhat politically defines that kind of situation. And when that kind of rift grows between the citizens and the politicians, people get pretty Pi$$ed off. A draft would at least motivate people to actually have an opinion on the war at all. My wife, for example, refuses to hear about any news story involving the war because she probably sees it as an "any news is bad news" kind of situation. But to me, that kind of conscious effort to block out the war in Iraq in order to focus on daily life is proposterous! I was in the Air Force for 6 years as soon as I got out of high school. And to think of being that age and dying in a war that noone wants to hear about is pretty frightening.

-ChriS

reply to post by BlasteR


Not sure if youre aware but they have 3x as many applicants as they can handle right now.

i didn't "stand by", i worked to get bush elected and in college i worked as a volunteer when we were working against clinton.

Wow!!!

So you sat back and HELPED to get people to START wars & FORCE people to get involved in wars based on LIES...? That 'causes people to DIE for NOTHING.

You're a chicken hawk. That's what you are. And I see you haven't bothered to even reply to people in this thread. Chicken. Hawk.

Welcome to my ignore and I encourage everyone to do the same!!!

My point is, with a little tiny bit of research alone, it is inescapable to see that war leads to gain for only those not on the battlefield. It is, in my opinion, the sign of a weak-minded individual to join the army, since in order to do so one must not have any sort of thought patterns aside from those the government-operated media implements.

You have zero understanding of why people join the military so don't pretend to.


[edit on 8/8/2008 by C0bzz]

Originally posted by jprophet420
reply to post by BlasteR

 

Not sure if youre aware but they have 3x as many applicants as they can handle right now.

I never said that a draft is the right thing at this point. I was simply illustrating for you and everyone else how a draft wouldn't be all bad. Because it wouldn't be. Especially given how so many people don't seem to even care about the War in Iraq and our servicemen/women dying for our freedom. People need to wake up.. A draft would definatley get people's attention. That's all I'm saying.

-ChriS

[edit on 8-8-2008 by BlasteR]

why has ATS suddenly had a influx of "08" registered idiots? its getting worse each year..

[edit on 8/8/08 by cheeser]

Originally posted by Slothrop
i see and hear a lot of paranoia these days about the government instituting another draft. in my mind, a draft would be about the best thing for the current generation of american kids.

Agree wholeheartedly, which might surprise people familiar with my views, i.e, my peace loving anti-fascist views.

ever since vietnam, which was a necessary if unpopular war,

Shurely that's a typo for unnecessary. (Just, teasing you Slothrup.)

american democracy has been debased until it has become no more than a tyranny of the masses.

Shurley you mean here tyranny of the military industrial complex, not the masses, who have no representation in the legislative branch of the Bush 2 administration.

the government is now expected to bow down to popular cowardices and feelings of entitlement. we have welfare and food stamps, but no compulsory service to one's country.

Here again your understanding is faulty, imho. The Bush administration and any subsequent fascist-minded administration will use "the couch potato factor" as a carrot and the threat of a draft as a stick to make ordinary, peace loving Americans do exactly as the Bushwhackers want, I.e., shut up, sign over their rights and freedoms and indeed their whole country, as they've done with the North American Union, (a "union" that benefits one tiny group of oligarchs,) and last but not least, stay out of the way and follow orders at home.

an entire generation of americans is involved in their country in theory only, playing world of warcraft or writing blogs from the safety of basement rooms while the world grows more dangerous day by day.

Well, you're right here, but, and it's a big but, that is exactly the oligarch's, Bush administrations's, NWO's plan.

these people should be made to realize that, in being a patriot and a citizen, something is always at stake. a draft may be the only way.

That is precisely why a draft will never be introduced by the fascists who currently control the United States, and why I agree with you that there should be a draft.

A draft has all kinds of benefits that a professional army, which is what the United States has now, can not provide. I could rhapsodize on and on about a draft. The positive influence that a draft has on a society is comprehensive and specifically touches many problem areas, crime, education, etc. that are of signal importance. But most important of all, it helps bring a society, top to bottom, together.

This last point is why the fascists will do everything in their power to avoid a draft. They don't want American society to be cohesive.

When you have a citizen army, i.e., a conscripted or drafted army, you cannot indulge in stupid, unecessary wars of aggression like Vietnam, or Iraq without mayhem ensuing at home.

When you have a professional army of employees, which is what the United States has now, you can indulge in any sort of war you want, including a war against your own citizens at home. Look at the videos of policemen beating up citizens on your streets. They are employees, not draftees. The mentality is completely different.

America has gone from being Athens, with a citizen or drafted army, to being Sparta with a professional army, and that's not a good thing. It's a prelude to totalitarianism.



[edit on 8-8-2008 by ipsedixit]

reply to post by Heike


I agree with you on the community service for teens. I don't know if this is nationwide (probably not), but I attended both private and public high schools. Each required some community service every year. The private required 50 hours of documented community service.

We all grumbled about the responsibility given to us, but I cannot say that any of us regretted what we did. It's incredible to see change happening by your hands....something missed by many kids these days.

Originally posted by cheeser
why has ATS suddenly had a influx of "08" registered idiots? its getting worse each year..

[edit on 8/8/08 by cheeser]

Summer holidays. That's it i'm afraid, every single year it's the same around this exact time. To many kids with too much time.

reply to post by iceofspades


Right on! But the most important thing to me is the friends one makes across class barriers.

The WW2 and Korea and Vietnam era vets have friendships that are much rarer now. Young people from the ghetto were rubbing shoulders with young people from the wealthy classes.

It makes for a more humane society when the rich understand the problems of the poor and more importantly when the poor feel that the rich understand them and that they can reach them if necessary in a way that doesn't involve crime.

The importance of this kind of thing cannot be over estimated.

You know Slothrop, I agree with you about the draft, but there has to be a catch to it. They only get drafted when you are the first one in line to be drafted. It`s only fair, right? You sound like a person who would like to lead by examlpe. So if it ever happens(And I hope it doesn`t)that a draft comes up, can we expect that you will be the first one in line?

Lol, I doubt it very much, do you know why? No not because of your age, because you are just like the ones who start drafts, just like the ones you fought to get into office. Your a person who wants others to do your dirty work, so you can sit back here in the states and feel oh so safe, and still make your money while others are taking bullits to their bodies. And what do they get? Minds that are torn apart from watching their buddies die or get their arms and legs blown off. Then they can come home and get shunned by people like you. Am I being fair? Just as fair as you are.

I had a close friend who fought in nam. Before being drafted he was a nice young church going kid who loved everyone, and would give you the shirt off of his back. He was sent to nam in the marines. He was wounded and almost lost his hand because of this. When he came home, he was a total opposite of what he was before going in. He hated people, he wanted nothing to do with anyone, he wanted to be left alone, he drank to the point of almost killing himself. Why was he like this? War, plain and simple. He has turned himself around over the years, but, to this day he hates the government for what it did to a generation of young people, and how so many turned their backs on them when they came home.


So yea, start a draft, then do what your so good at. Set on your fat can and watch a generation get wrecked. So, if you can`t be the first in line, then maybe you can be at the airport to welcome them back home, right? No, that would take you away from your endeavors, wouldn`t it? And I say that for anyone who agrees with him on this issue.

reply to post by FiatLux


America does not have a draft for one and only one reason and that is a draft makes it too difficult to wage unjust wars of agression. A draft has a by-product that the fascist controllers of America don't want, social cohesion. With a draft there would be no war in Iraq. Even with a professional army the Iraq war had to be sold to the public with lies.

(Sorry for what happened to your buddy. I had a friend who was a 'Nam era marine corps deserter, who committed suicide in Toronto. I've shed many a tear for him. He was a great guy.)

reply to post by Slothrop


What exactly is it that makes you think that reinstituting the draft would teach people anything about patriotism ?

You can't force someone to be patriotic, it is something that a person feels. Either they feel it or they don't, there is no way to force something like that on someone.

Do you really believe that a country that forces a person to go fight a war that they don't believe in is going to earn the love of that person ? Patriotism is about loving your country, having respect for and pride in your country.

I was born in 61 and i remember the vietnam war. I remember the stars in my nieghbors windows, and mothers in the nieghborhood crying because their sons had to go to war. I remember people fleeing to Canada because they didn't want to fight that war. I can remember the things that we saw on the news. Then we had soldiers coming home after serving their country and being spat on, and called baby killers, the goverment that forced them to go fight turning their backs on them. It was a terrible time for our country. Maybe you're not old enough to know what a draft is really like.

And where did you ever get the idea that being patriotic means that you don't get to choose what you approve and disapprove of concerning what your country does ?

Being a patriot does not mean that you are willing to blindly fight a war that you don't believe in, blindly doing whatever your goverment tells you to do. A patriot will defend their country when their country needs defending.

Whether you choose to believe it or not there are a hell of a lot of patriots in this country who, believe me if the time ever comes that this country truely needs to be defended, will not hesitate even one moment to do so.

Perhaps you are under the misconception that a patriot should be loyal to their goverment, and if that is the case then you are wrong. A patriot is loyal to their country at all times, but loyal to their goverment only when they deserve it.

Maybe you should get a better understanding of what patriotism really means and have a little more faith in your fellow americans.

Originally posted by Slothrop
reply to post by thegdfather

 

the fact that you weren't able to vote for president bush doesn't mean you should be excused from national military service. the thing about being a patriot, about loving your country, is that you don't get to pick and choose which actions you agree with and which actions you disagree with. it's time we understand again that it is good and right to support one's country.

Well I think your whole idea is a pile of pucky.

On the contrary, I did not vote for Bush because I knew in my bones the man was no good so no thanks you, NO!

I suggest you have some kids and send them in nineteen years... We will still be there.

On a whole other note this war has now been proven to be total BS... Fake, Phony Forged, in fact I think the president and his men should be strung up for this ASAP.

You see the President of the United States is only a title. It doesn't indicate: intelligence, honesty, character, fortitude or goodness... I am tired or this elite illusion
of importance.

So you may be right the youth of today will not blindly accept responsibility for a three dollar bill of a man! Bush could care less about anybody but himself and his people,
I'd rather kick him square in the sack!

This is not 15th century England buddy.

reply to post by ipsedixit



I agree with you totally about that. The sad part is, a government can send a young person to war and wreck their minds, and not even blink an eye about it, just like it`s another day to them. No feeling for another at all.

I am very sorry about your friend, what a way to go. It must have ruined his mind to no end. When someone near and dear to us die because of something like this, it`s not hard for us to turn against those who cause and support wars. I lost an uncle (my dads little brother) in WW2, and I watched my dad die a little each day after that. It`s not easy to live with something like that.

reply to post by Jenna

So it's experience that matures you, but age means nothing.. People who are older have had more experience than a teenager. Thus my point. I don't recall any one saying to throw teens in combat, but ok

Not really a teenager or a child can have a far better understanding of the true values in life, experience determines maturity yes but like I said, and I guess you didnt see, a child who is brought up in a war stricken area will have the capacity for a much better understanding of the value of life. Seeing people die every day of your life would mature you pretty quickly dont you think? Also this entire thread is about FORCING THOSE ELIGIBLE FOR THE DRAFT INTO THE SERVICE! So yes we are talking about throwing teens into combat, unless the draft age went up a generation and my generation wasnt aware of it.

I don't recall any one saying that having to kill or be killed doesn't cause regret in the survivor. And just out of curiosity, how can they feel regret if they are mindless killing machines? Robots don't feel anything.

I dont think you understood, I was saying that your friends must not have seen combat because they enjoyed the army. Most Human Beings who have seen combat and have killed hundreds of other Human Beings, I Hope, would feel great regret and wouldnt try to advertise the military. If they dont feel that regret than they are one of two things Untainted (they havent seen combat) or are mindless killing machines.

Next time we go to war, go protest and see how far it gets you

I know for a fact a protest wouldnt work. The basis of what I was saying in the last part of that post was that why would you want to force kids, our nations FUTURE into war and make things worse? I was saying that this plan is very idiotic and would cause far more problems than it would fix.

Listen Yes my generation is stupid, lazy, and very greedy. I dont like it I hate my generation I wish we knew that material objects arent what life is about, I wish I could change my generation. But to force us into the service? It would never work, It would only lead us further down the path of oppression, hate, and greed. So if you want to help change my generation find a plan that actually helps. Find a plan that doesnt sound stupid off the bat.

Slothrop....you say we were fighting communism back in Vietnam and that is was a necessary cause. Well news flash buddy. Apparently you have never heard of Wal-Mart. Over 75% of all their products sold are from communist China and the majority of all products in American households are from communist China. So tell me what those soldiers(patriots) died for in Vietnam. I can tell you in one word, NOTHING! We fought communism, that is true, but now our Government supports it by making communist China RICH and letting all of our American based companies move over seas to avoid taxes and drain the American economy dry. Maybe you and Pres Bush should draft eachother into this war. Oh and one more thing.......Pres Bush avoided the draft in case you forgot that story. I guess it helps to have a daddy that has worked for the CIA and Secret Service to get you out of the draft by getting you into the NAVY which you didn't even show up half the time (Pres Bush)!