a draft would be the best thing for this generation

Originally posted by caballero
Are you sure about your military friends? were they ever in combat? My parents were in the military as well and they liked it too but they never had to watch their friends die, they never had to kill, they never had to face death on a day to day basis. I would not want to meet the man who can kill someone or hundreds of people and not feel any regret for it. Mindless robots kill without feeling. Almost every documentry where WWII vets are interviewed they still cant keep from feeling guilt or regret one vet even said "why did i deserve to live and not them?". Doesnt sound like a very happy statement.

Yep, she's right. Everyone I know in the service (including myself) doesn't regret the decision of joining. I think the only thing they might "regret" is getting out when they did (instead of reenlisting one more time) or maybe having enlisted at the wrong time (waited until they were 21 instead of enlisting at 19).

What you're quoting is "survivors guilt". Guys in the military sometimes have it after being in combat, people surviving disasters have it, too.

Originally posted by caballero Since you want to deny ignorance so bad deny the ignorance in your own statements, war does mess you up big time, and for those who dont get messed up are mindless killing machines. Since I highly doubt youve seen any combat follow your own words of wisdom and dont talk about what you dont know, who are you to say that a soldier who has killed doesnt feel any regret. Shame on you.

So, guys who were in combat are either mentally "messed up" or mindless killing machines? Hmmm...have you seen combat? If not, don't talk about what you don't know.

Originally posted by caballero Why is it that war is the only option for peace? Thats is the dumbest thing in the world to me, war only breeds more hatred which turns into more war. Peace breeds peace, so instead of sending our country's future to war why not teach us the importance of peace and peace making?

Well, peace might breed peace, and I'm willing to give it a chance, but sometimes, other countries don't seem to be on the same sheet of music as us.

Originally posted by havingfun

I see people like Iceofspades and I kind of chuckle a little bit. Apparently I am mindless and weak minded.

Do me a favor kid, keep working. I need those federal income taxes you pay. I actually owe you thanks my friends each and every person in here that has paid their taxes. You have put me and my wife in college, you paid for my cars, my sweet guitars and a wicked Ibanez bass, I'm about to get my second plasma TV from you, My 1 year old son's college savings fund is coming along pretty nice. I am also in the market for a house pretty soon (pending PCS move.) and soon enough I will transfer to the Warrant Officer corps and get a even sweeter raise.

Money doesn't buy happiness but it does get you alot less sadness.

Honey, I don't pay any taxes---one of the benefits of UCC redemption. I don't pay sh** to the system, aside from the frequent thought thrown in its direction.

Money doesn't buy happiness, true. Nor does it buy anything else (it's all owned by the state). Try living on a commune where everything made is for your friends and family....where working for someone means an equal exchange. I do, and it's wonderful.....probably just a little more wonderful than your second plasma screen

[edit on 8/7/2008 by iceofspades]

As an example of my previous statement that bravery isn't the thing that leads to winning wars: take the japanese with the samurai code.

With the age of guns it meant that no matter how noble the cause was, you still ended up losing to 'the man' and getting pwned by him because the guy with the money to make the best weapon was able to outsmart the other guy with the uber skills, discipline and balls to fight for the cause.

War doesn't teach you much at all except how to kill better. The age of the 'killer for hire' should have been gone long ago but is artificially kept alive by staging a threat to scare you, and to keep the industry going.

Sort of like how the medical industry will never find a cure for cancer because treating is more profitable than giving the patients the cure which is a one-off sale. You want to keep your customers coming back. Whjy offer a cure when you can sell treatments? This is why privatisation of the war industry is so dangerous, because businesses don't actually give a # about the country they are being paid by. They were former soldiers, fighting for the country once, but now just using the skills they learned solely for money and profit.

You see now that these skilled soldiers are able to find higher pay from mercenary organisations they can work for the bad guys if they want to and not have to listen to the people whose country they once served. That is not to say they are all going to be traitors to their own people, but that the possibility is very high they are helping the other side TOO in order to stay in business.

You see if I am a hired gun all I give a # is that your country doesn't have peace so that I can keep myself in business by having you hire me time after time after time. Like how the mafia extort business for "protection money".
You don't want to hire me? I will offer my services to your worst enemy and attack you to make you NEED my services to protect you.

Do the older generation even realise what you have created? You guys have trained ex assassins, ex-army etc and just like in that videogame "Metal Gear Solid" these people love war so much that they can't live in a peaceful world anymore due to the money they make, or the skills they've learned which risk getting "rusty" if they have no job! They will just create a war to keep themselves happy.

Thanks a lot! Now the world is ruled by whoever pays the most. The powers that be are all part of cults that worship death. This is not a joke, you are not safer by playing into their hands because they can create a war and use you like a puppet. All you have to do is wake up, see that there are two versions of the US (one is a corporation) and that the rich man has outsmarted the poor man which has caused you to be indebted to the rich man forever due to the money system they entrapped you in. (where debt can never be out paced by your ability to pay it off - this is a system of control so that your country using that system can never grow beyond what the elite want it to)

These people are not loyal to your nation. The true patriot is the one educating you on your history so that you can fight for true freedom. It's only a matter of time before you are all going to be imprisoned in death camps or to work as slaves as prison labor for the corporations to save themselves money like underpaid workers in a nike sweatshop. First understand that your debt is a cause of the system you (those who got tricked in it) agreed to be ruled under. Pay off the debt, free yourself from international banks slavery, and then talk about recruiting to build the army. Not before then, while you are still enslaved by it. Because all it will do is make them rich and they will use those profit to build the prison camps on your soil.

Nazi germany was their practice. The elite are going to try it again on americans. Why? because you all allowed it to happen. If you can't pay off the debt you are not free, no matter how many others you kill.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Snake Plisskin]

I totally agree, the Draft should be mandatory for years to come, I just wish you can all get your god given war in your own country and fight it for ages instead than going around bulling other nations.

Originally posted by iceofspades

probably just a little more wonderful than your second plasma screen

[edit on 8/7/2008 by iceofspades]

More wonderful that playing Rockband on 1080i?

Surely you jest.

and don't call me honey

Originally posted by havingfun

More wonderful that playing Rockband on 1080i?

Surely you jest.

and don't call me honey

Materialism is going to make you a regretful old man. That's all I'm saying darling.

Originally posted by iceofspades

Materialism is going to make you a regretful old man. That's all I'm saying darling.

I'm only 24 and so I have a long way to go. Sorry, but I didn't have 2 nickels to rub together growing up and not by choice so i'll get what I want now and worry about being regretful when the time comes.

And don't call me darling, honey.

Originally posted by havingfun

I'm only 24 and so I have a long way to go. Sorry, but I didn't have 2 nickels to rub together growing up and not by choice so i'll get what I want now and worry about being regretful when the time comes.

And don't call me darling, honey.

It's your choice, and I won't think very much less of you for it. I'm glad you think you are happy

-Honey



[edit on 8/7/2008 by iceofspades]

Originally posted by iceofspades


It's your choice, and I won't think very much less of you for it. I'm glad you think you are happy

-Honey

[edit on 8/7/2008 by iceofspades]

I'm glad your glad because you think that I think that I am happy.

I'm further even more happier this thread is getting De-railed.

-darling

Originally posted by Slothrop
i see and hear a lot of paranoia these days about the government instituting another draft. in my mind, a draft would be about the best thing for the current generation of american kids.

ever since vietnam, which was a necessary if unpopular war, american democracy has been debased until it has become no more than a tyranny of the masses. the government is now expected to bow down to popular cowardices and feelings of entitlement. we have welfare and food stamps, but no compulsory service to one's country.

an entire generation of americans is involved in their country in theory only, playing world of warcraft or writing blogs from the safety of basement rooms while the world grows more dangerous day by day.



these people should be made to realize that, in being a patriot and a citizen, something is always at stake. a draft may be the only way.

So what you are basically saying is, you would like to see this current generation of people go and die for a meaningless war? The ones who control america want other people to go out and do their dirty work, the problems they caused themselves.

You want to see a draft? Why don't you want to see peace on earth? How about no war?

Sign yourself up for the draft, I and many others like me have lives they would like to live in peace and I wish that all the people of the world would think with that same type of mindset.

There is no reason why any of us should go out and risk our lives because someone told you to, because they can't get blood on their own hands.

All of the nations soldiers should just put down their weapons and go home to live a real life. Make peace, spread the Universal Love.

I agree with a two year mandatory National Service. We wouldn't need a draft. It's amazing how so many people can't do two quick years of service. You wouldn't graduate highschool on Monday and then go to Iraq on Tuesday. It could be set-up that you only do service in the country. Figuring out the financing of this program would be extremely hard, but I do believe the outcome could be extremely positive. Remember I'm not saying we send our 18 year olds to war. People talk about how they "pay taxes" and that's their way of serving our country. Is that really true? How many kids are born into rich families that never get a grasp of what reality is? You say the rich are sending our troops overseas to better themselves, but is that really different that what goes on here? The thing I've noticed is that a lot of people are passionate about how they would never serve in the military and how the war is a waste. I agree that this war is a major problem for Iraq and for at home, but what solutions do you have? This is just and idea. Two years service would help mature a lot of our youth. you can't deny that our youth is less respectful now than in years past. Parenting is a lost art, and you can see it in the attitudes of the kids today. Do you really see the youth of today coming up with solutions to help our nation in the future? I see a bunch of "freethinkers" that do just that. Sit around and "think" but never react.

Originally posted by The Lizard King

All of the nations soldiers should just put down their weapons and go home to live a real life. Make peace, spread the Universal Love.

Here here. It's about time the world started evolving past petty bickering.


Draft or no draft, war is just about as childish as humans get.

reply to post by The Lizard King


im willing to bet 10 to 1. slothrop would run before going to war. ...........im starting a new thread, "satanist's gone wild"

reply to post by iceofspades


Exactly. Billions of children with weapons that can demolish the entire earth. Now that scares the hell out of me.

Thankfully people like the original poster of this thread aren't the U.S. Congress and no such thing will happen. A forced Conscription would do just the opposite of what the poster is suggesting it will do, it would not create patriotism or responsibility, but rather would breed unrest, hatred and rebellion among many, in my opinion.

The only need for conscription is if a voluntary army cannot be mustered--that is what the Constitutioin allows for if I am not wrong. I also believe that there will be no need for such an action unless a very long, drawn out, costly war--such as WWII and VietNam occurs again. Today's methods of warfare is vastly different and as a result fewer manpower is needed I would guess (I could be wrong but it seems common sense that with more automation..drones, etc..that few men are needed). The United States has an adequate voluntary Military and unless the extreme conditions of the past occur again, a mandatory conscription won't happen.

I see no proof at all for the insinuated link that a person who enjoys playing video games in a basement can't also be a patriot as well. That argument smells strangely of a false delimma since there is no intrinsic mutual exclusivity between enjoying video games and also being a patriotic American.

Also, our politicians may be less than honest and challenged at time when it comes to making good decisions, but any Congress that approves and President who signs a "draft" notice will likely face swift upheavel and a rapid vote out of office at the first election, and I think they know this, for the most part anyway.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by xtradimensions]

Originally posted by caballero
First off let me say no just because you are older does not mean you know more about the values of life. It does not mean you can come up with idiotic plans to throw teens into combat, and the simple fact that an adult did spout out this nonsense is proof of that. Its the experiences in your lifetime that mature you. Im pretty sure children who grow up in war striken countries can go as proof to that statement they learn the true values of life way faster than anyof us do.

So it's experience that matures you, but age means nothing.. People who are older have had more experience than a teenager. Thus my point. I don't recall any one saying to throw teens in combat, but ok.

Are you sure about your military friends? were they ever in combat? My parents were in the military as well and they liked it too but they never had to watch their friends die, they never had to kill, they never had to face death on a day to day basis. I would not want to meet the man who can kill someone or hundreds of people and not feel any regret for it. Mindless robots kill without feeling. Almost every documentry where WWII vets are interviewed they still cant keep from feeling guilt or regret one vet even said "why did i deserve to live and not them?". Doesnt sound like a very happy statement.

I don't recall any one saying that having to kill or be killed doesn't cause regret in the survivor. And just out of curiosity, how can they feel regret if they are mindless killing machines? Robots don't feel anything.

Since you want to deny ignorance so bad deny the ignorance in your own statements, war does mess you up big time, and for those who dont get messed up are mindless killing machines. Since I highly doubt youve seen any combat follow your own words of wisdom and dont talk about what you dont know, who are you to say that a soldier who has killed doesnt feel any regret. Shame on you.

Please show me where I stated that those who have seen combat don't feel regret, never have any other feelings about it, or that some don't get "messed up" as you call it. Once again I don't recall saying that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Why is it that war is the only option for peace? Thats is the dumbest thing in the world to me, war only breeds more hatred which turns into more war. Peace breeds peace, so instead of sending our country's future to war why not teach us the importance of peace and peace making?

While those are important, and we really didn't have a good reason to go to war to begin with in Iraq, please explain to me why our soldiers should stand there and die without firing back. I fully understand that peace would be a much better option than war, but the sad fact is that we are there, there is a war going on, and sticking an olive branch out to a suicide bomber is not going to stop him from blowing you up.

Because every single modern conflict is fabricated, they make it seem noble but they only want to line their wallets. So as long as we let them force us into war we stop any type of peace from forming.

Next time we go to war, go protest and see how far it gets you.


War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John Stuart Mill ~ (1868)


reply to post by jerico65


Couldn't agree more.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS



Parenting is a lost art...so you suggest that the government take over parenting in effect?


I would only support a draft if it required every current person in Congress to serve two years in the military, it would likely teach them respect and the importance for showing up for work. Now that's a good idea for a draft--not many people would be added to the military, but if we are going to teach respect and work ethic, Congress is the first place to start imo.

reply to post by Slothrop


Let me guess your probably blindly catholic and also insanely right wing... would I be correct with that statement? And also since we have the largest standing volunteer army why exactly do we need a draft?

Originally posted by xtradimensions
I would only support a draft if it required every current person in Congress to serve two years in the military, it would likely teach them respect and the importance for showing up for work. Now that's a good idea for a draft--not many people would be added to the military, but if we are going to teach respect and work ethic, Congress is the first place to start imo.

Thanks. Stick me and my friends with some fat-ass Congressman or woman that wouldn't know a good work ethic if it bit them on their bloated behind.

Can you imagine Teddy Kennedy trying to hump a ruck in 100+ degree heat? He'd melt like butter.

MADNESS. Our children are human beings. Born to be FREE. Not lowly drones born to serve the hive.