Originally posted by resistor
Fear not, socialized ‘health care’ is coming to the USA. Big pharma will make sure of it, just like they have in the rest of the west.

Personally, I find western medicine to be outstanding for major trauma, but close to useless for chronic conditions. If you don’t like taking pharmaceutical chemicals or getting shot up with mercury laced cow puss, forget it. I’ve got no heath care coverage of any kind, never have and don’t want any. I know what my body needs to keep itself healthy and provide that on a rather meager income. The ‘health care industry’ can keep their pills and poisons.

'Big Pharma' as you call it has no say at all in the National Health Service of the UK. Doctors make the descisions in what medicines you have, not the pharmaceutical companies and in my experience they usually go for the cheaper option of drugs or treatments.

To those who say that they dont pay insurance and that they are fine. Well, for your sakes I hope you will be. But whats going to happen to you if you suddenly find that you are not well and it is a serious long standing illness? You tell me that it is right to maybe have to sell you house to pay for medical bills or watch you kids die because you cant afford the treatment. THIS is from a so-called FIRST WORLD COUNTRY.

Originally posted by Wotan
To those who say that they dont pay insurance and that they are fine. Well, for your sakes I hope you will be. But whats going to happen to you if you suddenly find that you are not well and it is a serious long standing illness? You tell me that it is right to maybe have to sell you house to pay for medical bills or watch you kids die because you cant afford the treatment. THIS is from a so-called FIRST WORLD COUNTRY.

Do you know what bothers me the most about it, it's the fact that lots of insurance companies don't cover you over the lifetime of an illness. I looked into health insurance as a sort of backup to the NHS. I found lots and lots of clauses, my favorite being that i was only covered up to £250,000 of any single illness. That means if i had a long term illness, once i passed £250,000 i would have to go to the NHS anyway.

I would again like to point out some glaring logic to those who support the insurance idea. Insurance companies make their money by not paying out, that is the major drive for them, to not pay out. Whereas the NHS here in the UK aims to provide the best treatment. The nurses and doctors never have to think about money, they can concentrate on how to treat their patient. Surely that's the most important thing.

To think that when a nurse treats me, they don't have to think about how to make the most out of me, to think a doctor can treat me, trying his/her best ot find whats wrong and fix it, without ever thinking of money. That to me means a lot and makes me sure they are trying to do their best to make me well.

Originally posted by Wotan
'Big Pharma' as you call it has no say at all in the National Health Service of the UK. Doctors make the descisions in what medicines you have, not the pharmaceutical companies and in my experience they usually go for the cheaper option of drugs or treatments.

The one problem i have with this statement is the first part. Pharmautical companies do have some say in the NHS, they rip off our government. Actually it's been bought up in the commons how the companies are basically holding us to ransom, luckily we're taking care of that issue.


[edit on 7-8-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Really...NHS is not about socialism,its about an right that any persons living in a country should recieve the same degree of healthcare as anyone else,despite salary etc I really fail to see how someone could be opposed to that...you always bring up money,but america could easily find the funds with the amount of GDP it has...

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Lethil]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

I would again like to point out some glaring logic to those who support the insurance idea. Insurance companies make their money by not paying out, that is the major drive for them, to not pay out. Whereas the NHS here in the UK aims to provide the best treatment. The nurses and doctors never have to think about money, they can concentrate on how to treat their patient. Surely that's the most important thing.

To think that when a nurse treats me, they don't have to think about how to make the most out of me, to think a doctor can treat me, trying his/her best ot find whats wrong and fix it, without ever thinking of money. That to me means a lot and makes me sure they are trying to do their best to make me well.

Well I can back you up that one as I am a Nurse working in the National Health System.

When I care for a patient and I need to dress wounds or provide other medical care, I do not care/worry about how much the equipment/materials are, I just get them and use them. I dont then have to itemise them on a bill for later payments.

Okay I am not payed the amount that a US Nurse gets, yes I could do with more money, but at the same time I dont know if I could work for the extortionate amounts of dollars that my US counterparts do. I think that there is a conflict of interest when money and healthcare comes together.

Healthcare should never be about money or should never have politics involved in it either ....... its about providing the best healthcare one can to all.

[edit on 7/8/08 by Wotan]

Originally posted by Wotan
Well I can back you up that one as I am a Nurse working in the National Health System.

When I care for a patient and I need to dress wounds or provide other medical care, I do not care/worry about how much the equipment/materials are, I just get them and use them. I dont then have to itemise them on a bill for later payments.

Wotan, i'm rather ill atm, but i intend on getting well and becoming a doctor, that's my goal if i can recover. I know a few nurses and you guys have my undying respect. Your points about the bill make it very clear that social medicine makes more sense.

Originally posted by Wotan
Okay I am not payed the amount that a US Nurse gets, yes I could do with more money, but at the same time I dont know if I could work for the extortionate amounts of dollars that my US counterparts do. I think that there is a conflict of interest when money and healthcare comes together.

You deserve more money, and the few doctors i know agree with that. I know some of them seem like arrogant idiots but there are plenty who think you do an incredible job and deserve more. I think that when money enters the arena of medicine, based on how much you can get out of your patient, then medicine falls down. It makes the patient a walking cash bag that you simply need to beat to get more out of, it doesn't encourage good care, just more tests.

Originally posted by Wotan
Healthcare should never be about money or should never have politics involved in it either ....... its about providing the best healthcare one can to all.

I can only hope you treat me one day, not that i want to be ill i just mean i would be lucky to have a nurse like you. My absolute and utter respect.

Why don't we just tell everyone to sit on their butts and government will take care of them. Let's tell them to be unmotivated citizens. Let's tell them to have as many kids as they want and work minimum wage because the government will help you out. Let's tell them to lose their individuality and join the dumb masses. Let's tell everyone to lose their hopes and dreams and forget about the opportunities in America, you don't need to pursue them, governments got your back.

I think it's more like we're becoming a third world country because people won't get off the couch and work hard and fight for their dreams. We're a sick nation of lazy, overweight, "give me", "give me" generation of government dependent babies. If you want good health insurance then get a job, get an education, get off your butt and take care of yourself. Stop over eating, smoking, drugs and alcohol. Start exercising and eating right and you won't have to worry about seeing a doctor on a weekly basis. Instead of them standing in line for free health care they could be standing in line at an employment agencies or at a trade school waiting for the doors to open so they can learn some skills.

Whine, whine, whine and give me more, give me more is all I ever hear anymore. America is the land of opportunity for those who seek it and want it. It takes determination, guts and a want to attitude to get ahead in this country. It's sad that some people want pity, government assistants and a free ride. They need to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions in life and get out there and be a contributor to America, not a taker.

Originally posted by Lethil
Really...NHS is not about socialism,its about an right that any persons living in a country should recieve the same degree of healthcare as anyone else,despite salary etc I really fail to see how someone could be opposed to that...you always bring up money,but america could easily find the funds with the amount of GDP it has...

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Lethil]

There's only one problem with your statement. The Constitution of the United States doesn't say that "any persons living in a country should recieve the same degree of healthcare as anyone else,despite salary etc".

The powers that FEDGOV have are laid out in it and they aren't supposed to do anything that the constitution doesn't SPECIFICALLY allow them. If they want to "give" us NH, then amend the constitution to include a "right to healthcare".

Until then, NO!

Eric

No we let well trained doctors and nurses take care of us when we are sick...This *Government taking care of us,freedoms,individual blah blah* is just silly...of course people want to be taken care of when they get sick....

Originally posted by Solarskye
Why don't we just tell everyone to sit on their butts and government will take care of them. Let's tell them to be unmotivated citizens. Let's tell them to have as many kids as they want and work minimum wage because the government will help you out. Let's tell them to lose their individuality and join the dumb masses. Let's tell everyone to lose their hopes and dreams and forget about the opportunities in America, you don't need to pursue them, governments got your back.

What? I can tell you that only a small majority think that way in the UK, with our national health service. Hell i don't even want children and yet i support the national health system. It amazes me that people like you comment on such issues without any real experience of the alternative.

Originally posted by Solarskye
I think it's more like we're becoming a third world country because people won't get off the couch and work hard and fight for their dreams. We're a sick nation of lazy, overweight, "give me", "give me" generation of government dependent babies.

Sadly that's an attitude shared in the UK, peopel dn't want to work.

Originally posted by Solarskye
If you want good health insurance then get a job, get an education, get off your butt and take care of yourself. Stop over eating, smoking, drugs and alcohol. Start exercising and eating right and you won't have to worry about seeing a doctor on a weekly basis. Instead of them standing in line for free health care they could be standing in line at an employment agencies or at a trade school waiting for the doors to open so they can learn some skills.

You show utter ignorance here. None of my family smoked or were overweight, all of them worked and worked hard, they sadly developed some health conditions. At my dads age of 57 he would be required to pay 900 pounds per month to cover only his health insurance. My mother also would require high amounts. To be able to afford the costs they'd need to earn about £3600 or roughly $9000 dollars per month to afford their costs for just insurance. Are you an utter elitist? This doesn't include myself and my brother!

Originally posted by Solarskye
Whine, whine, whine and give me more, give me more is all I ever hear anymore. America is the land of opportunity for those who seek it and want it. It takes determination, guts and a want to attitude to get ahead in this country. It's sad that some people want pity, government assistants and a free ride. They need to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions in life and get out there and be a contributor to America, not a taker.

So my father and mother who suffered a car accident that wasn't their fault should be penalised? Your empathy is pale. I only hope you never have to suffer tradegy in your life.

I still can't get over the fact that the in the darn United States of America with what.. 330 million people? Home of some of the coolest and flashest tech, some of the brainiest scientists and biggest budgets in the world.. does not have a proper public healthcare system. What the hell!

Little old New Zealand - 4mill people.. and we do. Last time I came off my bike I paid $10 fee at the clinic for a checkup and nurse time, I think it was admin costs or someting not covered by ACC (might be able to rebate it.. who knows).

We however, have a pretty tiny and not so flashy equipped millitary, we also do not have any fighter planes. We do not have any combat submarines... we're a pretty peaceful bunch but can bring the biffo if needed as seen in WW1/2 etc/

Maybe a slight budget tweak is needed in USA... maybe pull the troops from Iraq and spend that money on a healthcare system.. or a revamped education system... or something that will actually HELP the continued existance of the country in its former glory, which to many outsiders seems to be washing away fast.

[edit on 7/8/08 by GhostR1der]

Originally posted by Lethil
This *Government taking care of us,freedoms,individual blah blah* is just silly...

Your statement falls right in line with the "almost every country in Europe... why doen't America.....?"

Americans are DIFFERENT. That's why we are other here and you guys are still over there. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or anything, but we are DIFFERENT. Most Americans, I believe, don't think like you guys do. We want to take care of ourselves and our families. We don't want FEDGOV to do it for us. We value freedom and individuality. Those things aren't BLAH BLAH to us. I'm tired of Europe being the measuring stick. Our record speaks for itself. (until recently, sadly, but every country has it's problems)

Eric

Originally posted by Solarskye
I have health insurance that I work hard for and any medical bills I get I pay for.

You're lucky to earn enough then, the sad fact is that most people won't earn enough for it.

Originally posted by Solarskye
It took me two years to pay off a huge hospital debt I owed but one little payment at a time and it was paid.

Now imagine you has triple bipass surgery, or maybe just cancer. It would tkae you a lifetime to pay if off and the stress of that could easily cause your recovery to be delayed. Or are you unaware of the very clear research between stress and recovery?

Originally posted by Solarskye
I see alot of these people traveled across the states and camped out to get free healthcare. If I could afford to do that then I could afford insurance. There is free health care for children and I'm all for that, but for some people it's just a matter of choices and attitude that could get them a better job that has health insurance.

A lot of those peoplem travelled ina ll sorts of ways. Lets be clear here, health insurance in teh UK costs an absolute fortune, it would be enough to feed my family for a month if we had it. By paying taxes we are saved that money and we can pay for things to keep our life generally good. The stress reduction and enjoyment we get from that actually saves the NHS money. Maybe you overlooked the figures earlier, but social healthcare actually saves money in the long term. I know that might seem odd to you but it does.

I really hope you never have something long term and horrible. Honestly i hope that never happens because if it does you'll see your insurance company abandon you rather quickly and you stuck with the rather large bill.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Wotan
A country that cannot care for its poor and needy in my opinion is not a civilised country at all and doesnt deserve respect, especially from a so-called world leader country.

What are you talking about We care for our poor and needy and even care for other countries. We give food and help in all countries that need it. We've pulled countries out of everything possible and yet we get a jealous remark from you who say we don't deserve respect.

I hope for your sake that if you ever become ill, that you can afford it and not have to worry about the bills .......... I don't need to worry, I know i will be well cared for, for FREE.

I always worry about bills and that's why I pay them and try to keep myself debt free. You go ahead and take it for free if it makes you feel better, but for me I will work and pay my own way. And along the way I will help out. I give to St Jude's hospital and the shriners for the burn centers. Do you give any back from what you take for free?