"It's Like Something Out Of The Third World"

And of course even if you have health insurance.
Good quality expensive health insurance and have paid into it for 20+ years.
If you get sick, they don't have to pay.
They can just find some clause some problem with the policy, thats your fault, and you have nothing.
Millions die everyday across the world from stupid fixable things.
Because of the monetary value on fixing them.
Look at Tim Russert for example, his doctor was to cheap, or his insurance didn't think he was serious enough, to warrant paying for an angiogram.
Then he dropped dead.He was save able.
Look at someone like Bill Clinton, he just pays the uber dollars to get the angiogram then has surgery the next day.
The doctors are in it WITH the insurance company's.
They get bonus's for recommending cheaper treatments, which of course often jeopardizes the health of patients.

The U.S. is several times the population of Canada and the U.K., socialized health care would be a gamble to the taxpayers and our economy in general. While it would be nice that responsible, honest Americans received these types of social services, I'm also concerned by what appears to be an epidemic of freeloaders that live off the government despite their obvious ability to work. Someone really needs to do the math.

[REPLY to Patrickrpg & JackInTheBox]
Whoa, whoa, whoa, both of you, slow down for a minute. Exactly what the hell do you think socialism is? It is government control over employers, dictating everything from compensation to benefits to who's doing what tasks. Both of you are talking about things that fall directly under that banner.

The government dictating that "All compnaies MUST provide $X amount of health insurance benefits to every employee" is socialist! Suggesting that (and feel free to tell me if I'm reading too much into your post, Jack) an employer who owns tenements should be required to compensate employees enough that they can afford to live in said tenements, or even be required to house them as part of their employment is socialist! Why is it that free market capitalism seems to be a lost concept on so many Americans? If Wallmart isn't providing you the life you wish to be living, find another job that will. If you are unskilled or unprepared for a different career, then by God, maybe it's time to hoof it down to your local job corps or community college and take some damn career building courses! But no, that would require you to take actual responsibillity for yourself and who in the blue hell wants to do that when it is so much easier and simpler to just sit on your butt whining about it until either government reaches down and provides for you or you get enough members of the damp eye crowd to toss some money to you while you're wasting your days wallowing in self pity?

[edit on 7-8-2008 by burdman30ott6]

Hundreds of thousands of Americans are now traveling out of the country for Health care.

It's pretty sad when it is cheaper to travel to another country for health care than to receive health care in your own neighborhood. Even those "lucky" enough to have insurance are finding that it is more cost efficient to travel out of the USA.

The number of people traveling to the USA for health care is declining as well.


[edit on 7-8-2008 by amazed]

Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship when Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year?

Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.
* Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

* Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960

* Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.

* Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

* Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.

* Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation

Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

* Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care

* Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.

* Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits

* Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.

* Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money.


Myth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed Services

* Fact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the US

* Fact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.

* Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)

* Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.

* Fact Five: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per yearStates because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%

Cont....

Cont....

* Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.

Myth Four: Universal Health Care Would Result In Government Control And Intrusion Into Health Care Resulting In Loss Of Freedom Of Choice

* Fact One: There would be free choice of health care providers under a single payer universal health care system, unlike our current managed care system in which people are forced to see providers on the insurer’s panel to obtain medical benefits

* Fact Two: There would be no management of care under a single payer, universal health care system unlike the current managed care system which mandates insurer preapproval for services thus undercutting patient confidentiality and taking health care decisions away from the health care provider and consumer

* Fact Three: Although health care providers fees would be set as they are currently in 90% of cases, providers would have a means of negotiating fees unlike the current managed care system in which they are set in corporate board rooms with profits, not patient care, in mind

* Fact Four: Taxes, fees and benefits would be decided by the insurer which would be under the control of a diverse board representing consumers, providers, business and government. It would not be a government controlled system, although the government would have to approve the taxes. The system would be run by a public trust, not the government.

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care administered by a state public health system would be much more democratic and much less intrusive than our current system. Consumers and providers would have a voice in determining benefits, rates and taxes. Problems with free choice, confidentiality and medical decision making would be resolved.


Myth Five: Universal Health Care Is Socialized Medicine And Would Be Unacceptable To The Public

* Fact One: Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.

* Fact Two: Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system (see The Harris Poll #78, October 20, 2005)

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care is not socialized medicine and would be preferred by the majority of the citizens of this country.

Myth Six: The Problems With The US Health Care System Are Being Solved and Are Best Solved By Private Corporate Managed Care Medicine because they are the most efficient

* Fact One: Private for profit corporation are the lease efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.

* Fact Two: The same procedure in the same hospital the year after conversion from not-for profit to for-profit costs in between 20 to 35% more

* Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care

Cont....

I guarantee you that picture is not full of freeloaders and shills as you idiots say. It is full of real life middle America and people who are what are known as the "working poor".


Let's do some basic math for all of you genius types who have it all figured out.


Bob lives in rural Virginia, he works some crappy low paying job that does not offer health coverage (because the majority don't). Bob lost his well paying manufacturing job when the company that he worked for up and moved to Mexico.

Bob makes $2000 per month before taxes. In order to provide basic medical coverage for himself, his spouse and two school age children it would cost $600 per month just for health coverage alone.

That represents over 1/4 of Bob's monthly income, which makes it financially impossible for him to have any health insurance. Get it?

These people are just like millions of Americans who have fallen through the cracks, and I am not talking about unemployable or worthless and lazy people. These are folks who work 50 hours a week and barely make enough money to squeek by every month. They hope and pray that nobody in their family gets hurt or sick. Students, teachers, truck drivers, self employed people...the list goes on and on.

A one week stint in the hospital for even a minor ailment will usually cost upwards of $15,000. All it takes is for one thing to go wrong and these people lose everything. They dont ever see a doctor, there is no such thing as a check up, and forget about dental work.


Do any of you know what it is like to be forced to extract your teeth because you cant afford to pay to have them fixed? Ever sat and watched as your child suffered a fever and the only thing that you can do is give them over the counter medicine and hope for the best? Ever been sick but terrified to go to a doctor because of what they may tell you, because you know that whatever it is you will not be able to afford it?

If your answer is no then my advice would be to sit down and shut up. You have no idea what it is like for struggling families in todays America.

I know all of this first hand because I get to talk with people every day, I see their finances, I see the hospital bills that have piled up and demolished credit. I see good people have their entire lives ruined due to one unforeseen illness. And I talk to elderly people on a weekly basis who have lost their entire retirement due to illness and are forced to go back to work in their 60's and 70's to keep from being homeless.

If these corrupt and greedy war mongering scoundrels that we have elected can see fit to raid and plunder our hard earned tax dollars in order to prop up third world countries and wage war against anyone and everyone to the tune of billions upon billions of dollars then goddamnit they can also afford to help real desperate honest to God American citizens who need a helping hand for a change. This topic makes me bitterly angry at this sytem which has failed us all so miserably.

The economic state of this country right at this moment is downright DISGRACEFUL and the disregard for American people and their families by the dirt scum running the show in my mind is unforgiveable and as sorry as can be.

Wake up and smell the coffee people, what you see in that picture is hard reality smacking you in your face. Go back to your little self indulged perfect world where everyone who starves deserves it and everyone who dies on a waiting room floor is just a deadbeat. Whatever gets you through your night.

Just don't ever say that you didn't know what was heppening to your fellow countrymen, and being done right under your very noses.

Cont.....

* Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care

* Fact Four: The quality of health care in the US has deteriorated under managed care. Access problems have increased. The number of uninsured has dramatically increased (increase of 10 million to 43.4 million from 1989 to 1996, increase of 2.4% from 1989 to 1996- 16% in 1996 and increasing each year).

* Fact Five: The level of satisfaction with the US health care system is the lowest of any industrialized nation.

* Fact Six: 80% of citizens and 71% of doctors believe that managed care has caused quality of care to be compromised

* Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

Overall Answer to the questions Why doesn’t the US have single payer universal health care when single payer universal health care is the most efficient, most democratic and most equitable means to deliver health care? Why does the United States remain wedded to an inefficient, autocratic and immoral system that makes health care accessible to the wealthy and not the poor when a vast majority of citizens want it to be a right of citizenship?

Conclusion: Corporations are able to buy politicians through our campaign finance system and control the media to convince people that corporate health care is democratic, represents freedom, and is the most efficient system for delivering health care.


I don't want to "bring down American government", but I sure want to "bring down" corporate control of America.

Sheeples

Keep believing that Universal Health Care is Socialism, because that is exactly what health insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies etc. really really love. Sheeples

USA is no doubt already a third world country .....

welcome to the Third World USA, you are only a militaristic imperialistic cesspool , which can't even provide health care for its citizens .....

USA is no land of opportunity , it is land of the imperialists , who have bankrupted their nation in the war against Iraq ,

reply to post by manson_322

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Oh great, more from this guy. (We really need a forearm and losely closed hand moving quickly in an up and down motion emoticon around here.)

Do you ever actually add anything of worth whatsoever to any thread here or are you just a record with big-ass scratch right across the "America Sucks" groove? Seriously, I'd love to know the answer to that and I'm sure I'm not the only one here who's wondered it.

Do you have any solution to it, or was this just yet another quick swoop in to make a strafing run across my nation's bow? The topic is American health care, feel free to actually contribute something to the discussion one of these days, dude.

reply to post by burdman30ott6

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That gave me a good laugh!! I usually know what to expect when I see his little turban pop up and I know whatever it is it wont be good.


Sewing the seeds of propaganda

You have to hand it to the chap though, if nothing else he is consistent in his rhetoric.

I think a hearty and warm thanks to the volunteer doctors and nurses and other healthcare workers who offered their services.
Even though I'm not from the states its scenes like these that restore my faith in humanity...

WELL DONE TO ALL

Now now, US healthcare is a billion dollar industry that makes huge profits for the providers. Surely this is exactly the kind of capitalism that the US supports and espouses. To have health care based on need and not profit makes you a commie doesn't it? And let's be honest most US citizens still believe in all that 50's McCarthy reds under the bed lies don't they? Certainly quite a few posters here on ATS do.

Personally, I'm glad I live over here where the national Health service is most definitely much better than expressed in the press (most bad press is from hearsay, regurgitated because its "popular" to do so). The biggest problem we have here is the influx of the privatising of the administration. They haven't a ......ing clue! Just ask the nurses. Ironic isn't it that the problems we have is due to creeping privatisation under the misguided assumption that private is good and efficient, and public is not. Just come and look at the privte multinational company I work for.....astonishing. But since it's private the truth is never known and the public sees a very highly massaged performance. Public bodies can't do that.

I do have a quick question for all the people out their saying that anyone who supports this idea is a socialist or communist. Would you say the UK is a socialist country then, as we have universal healthcare and have had it since the 1940's. You know what, some ideas are good whether they be socialist or not. I say that as a middle road person with a slightly conservative leaning.

Remember you have socialised some things in america. The police, the teachers, the libraries, the welfare system etc etc. Some socialist ideas were good, most of them were rubbish.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Socialism is merely providing for the social benefit - societies benefit , which is all of us, rather than the individual - this is opposed to communism which is a planned economy where the resources are allocated - before you MOCK people find out WTF you are talking about.

If there was someone I would trust to know the least about these types of things it would be an American - you win.

It has been acknowleged that america would not currently be able to receive a loan from the IMF without having to go through major economic restructuring under current rules due to its perilous debt position. So yes you are almost third world.

Well done.

I am continually surprised to find that people who call themselves conspiracy theorists would find nothing wrong with placing their health care in the hands of a government they rail against for trying to kill them every way possible.

Our "fittest" are sent off to die in foreign wars; our elderly are warehoused in nursing homes; our "best and brightest" (microbiologists, et al) are "suicided"; our access to alternative health care treatments is under attack; our temporal lobes are being bombarded with EMP (via cell phone use, television, etc.) to keep us docile and unwilling/unable to fight back. All this and so much more points to a government that has written its' intentions to kill off 90% of us (Georgia stones) and we somehow think that putting the well-being of our physical bodies in their hands is a good idea?

Governments role is not to "nanny" us from cradle to grave. Their job is to ensure that there are no impediments to us taking care of ourselves. Since government IS the biggest impediment to us taking care of ourselves, I certainly don't want to give them anymore power over me than they already have. Do you? Do you really?

Fear not, socialized ‘health care’ is coming to the USA. Big pharma will make sure of it, just like they have in the rest of the west.

Personally, I find western medicine to be outstanding for major trauma, but close to useless for chronic conditions. If you don’t like taking pharmaceutical chemicals or getting shot up with mercury laced cow puss, forget it. I’ve got no heath care coverage of any kind, never have and don’t want any. I know what my body needs to keep itself healthy and provide that on a rather meager income. The ‘health care industry’ can keep their pills and poisons.

Right ok i don't understand this at all. Doctors are not the government, they treat people to make them better.



Well i live in the UK and the NHS has never hurt me so far. Do you even understand social medicine? I mean seriously do you know anything about it, because if you live here in the UK you don't understnad it at all. I can choose my doctor, i can choose not to have immunisations if i want. I can choose how i'm cared for however i want. Maybe read something about it before commenting.



Do you understand the situation? Do you really? The government doesn't control how i take care of myself, i can choose not to visit the NHS and go private if i want. I can choose which doctor i want, which specialist i want, which tests i want etc etc.

You don't understand the NHS at all.

Not enough money to take care of your health, and yet we spent 400 MILLION DOLLARS on a Batman movie in it's first WEEK. Even just ignoring the Iraq war for a moment, the CITIZENS of the US are pissing their money away as well!

reply to post by Yarcofin

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Entertainment is a key thing in human society. It's been the same since we existed and developed society, from the roman amphitheatres to shakespeare it's always been needed and i don't think we can criticise anyone for spending money to be entertained.

Btw the batman movie was incredible, i'm so sad Heath Ledger is dead, brilliant actor. Off topic but had to be said.