Beyond the horizon...

Originally posted by jam321
I think electrical cars is a great idea. I am not saying anything negative about that. All I am saying is that we have to have the infrastructure to support the change.

Hello there,

it just occurred to me that most people would recharge their cars at night (for obvious reasons), when the demand is the lowest anyway because the A/C doesn't run as much as during the say and mosst of the lights are out. So in fact, this evens out the consumption and makes it more economical, -- maybe we already have enough capacity on the grid to accomodate electric vehicles.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by jam321
I think electrical cars is a great idea. I am not saying anything negative about that. All I am saying is that we have to have the infrastructure to support the change.

Hello there,

it just occurred to me that most people would recharge their cars at night (for obvious reasons), when the demand is the lowest anyway because the A/C doesn't run as much as during the say and mosst of the lights are out. So in fact, this evens out the consumption and makes it more economical, -- maybe we already have enough capacity on the grid to accomodate electric vehicles.

That's actually very BAD news. Think about this - if the nations energy grid is already taxed the way it is (peak usage during the day/reduced usage at night) imagine what happens when that proportion increases to peak usage during the day/peak usage at night.

I had also heard that it takes more oil to produce the electricity needed to power that car than it does to make the gasoline for a conventional engine - but hang tight with that, I'm still looking for data to back that up.

Then there's the question of the batteries. What do you do with them when they are exhausted? Can they be recycled? They are acid-batteries so you certainly cannot dump them into a landfill. Has sufficient research been done to figure out what's going to be done with several million retiring acid-batteries each year?

From what I understand now, most people that drive a gas-electric hybrid are leasing the vehicle because the battery has a life of only 8 years and then costs between $7,000 - $10,000 to replace. With a lease, you can keep getting a new car every few years and let the auto companies foot the bill for the battery. But how long is this going to last when the auto makers figure out just how much money they are losing on these batteries?

Already Chrysler, GM and Ford have announced that they will no longer lease cars (www.newser.com...). How long do you think it will be before the foreign car makers follow suit? And what will happen when American consumers are forced to buy their cars? Will they buy a vehicle that they know they will have to sink an extra $7,000 into 7-8 years down the road? I doubt it! I predict they will move back to buying traditional 4 cylinder gas engines that get between 30 and 40 MPG.

So has Obama really done his homework? Has he even considered all of this when he talks about pulling the trigger on gas-electric hybrid spending? I seriously doubt it, because honestly I believe the man isn't that intelligent about this subject without his advisors (I refer you back to the "inflate your tires, tune your engines" speech). But it's something he had better do his research on before this idea of his becomes a huge taxpayer subsidized money-pit.

reply to post by sos37


These are all very good question's to ask, that includes buddhasystem's post.

I think I will email the Obama camp. for a response.

These kinds of big changes need to be thought out completely.

Thanks guys for pointing these very important issues out.

-anyone

• Develop the Next Generation of Sustainable Biofuels and Infrastructure. Advances in biofuels, including cellulosic ethanol, biobutenol and other new technologies that produce synthetic petroleum from sustainable feedstocks offer tremendous potential to break our addiction to oil. Barack Obama will work to ensure that these clean alternative fuels are developed and incorporated into our national supply as soon as possible. He will require at least 60 billion gallons of advanced biofuels by 2030. Obama will invest federal resources, including tax incentives and government contracts into developing the most promising technologies and building the infrastructure to support them.

I think this answers some of your q's. -Also from the fact sheet.

and this:

• Establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard. Barack Obama will establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard (LCFS) to speed the introduction of low‐carbon non‐petroleum fuels. The standard requires fuels suppliers in 2010 to begin to reduce the carbon of their fuel by 5 percent within 5 years and 10 percent within 10 years. The Obama plan will incentivize increased private sector investment in advanced low‐carbon fuels and has a sustainability provision to ensure that increased biofuels production does not come at the expense of environmental conservation. The LCFS is an important mechanism in ensuring that our efforts to reduce our oil dependence also reduce carbon emissions.

I am sure there are many kinks to work through. But he seems to be trying to cover all bases. -I haven't spotted anything about recycling the batteries yet. Still looking...

If he can cover all of the bases and show it's an economically sound plan, then I would be all for it. The recycling of the batteries is my main concern because it stands to do the majority of the harm to the environment if not handled properly. Worst case scenario, I could see some unethical recycling company caught dumping these acid batteries into the ocean some years into the future. Just the thought of that makes me cringe ...

I found this site, it talks about the research and advancement in recycling electric car batteries.

an except:

“Hybrid-electric vehicles are more fuel efficient, but require high power and energy advanced battery packs. Because of these requirements, they are larger than the highly recycled lead acid batteries found in conventional vehicles,” said USCAR Executive Director Don Walkowicz. “USCAR’s Vehicle Recycling Partnership, representing the three U.S. automakers, is working to get ahead of the curve by promoting new technologies to recycle these batteries when hybrid vehicles reach their end-of-life.”

and this:

About OnTo Technology LLC OnTo develops technology for business sustainability. It uses green chemical methods to provide products and services to the mobile power market. Advanced batteries are the basis of both the mobile communication revolution and future personal transportation. OnTo’s expertise improves advanced battery serviceability and recyclability. OnTo provides efficient recycling technology that is fundamental for the continuing expansion of rechargeable battery dependent markets — from cell phone communication to hybrid and electric cars.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by anyone]

[edit on 7-8-2008 by anyone]

I just found this page as well talking about this subject. I think they are taking the right steps toward environmental safety.

Originally posted by sos37

So has Obama really done his homework? Has he even considered all of this when he talks about pulling the trigger on gas-electric hybrid spending? I seriously doubt it, because honestly I believe the man isn't that intelligent about this subject without his advisors ...

I think from what I have listed above he has done his homework and as far as advisors go all Presidents have advisors one man can't cover every issue alone or nothing would get done.

I do think these issue are being considered.

Originally posted by sos37
If he can cover all of the bases and show it's an economically sound plan, then I would be all for it. The recycling of the batteries is my main concern because it stands to do the majority of the harm to the environment if not handled properly. Worst case scenario, I could see some unethical recycling company caught dumping these acid batteries into the ocean some years into the future. Just the thought of that makes me cringe ...

That thought makes me cringe as well. I trust that we won't have to worry about that if Obama has anything to say about it.

For any of you who have read through this thread and find Obama's energy plan plausible flag it so others who may not think to click now may later if it's on the front page. Flag away and vote Obama!

It looks like Isreal and Denmark are investing in the electric car and powering their batteries with wind and solar power. Very initeresting...

reply to post by anyone


So, let's see, we're going to swap out a million gas-powered cars for a million electric cars. AND drop electricity consumption? What does he plan to do, outlaw air-conditioning? It's laughable.

Secondly, do a little research into electric cars. It's about carbon tax, which Obama is a big supporter of. Guess what...you move all the energy currently produced by gas in the car, to a corporate power plant, think of all the taxes he can reap. And think of how much it will cost to drive your car then!

Another consideration, too, is that Obama obviously has no grasp of life outside of a city. The rural people would be paying the dearest for this policy, as they already pay very high rates for line maintenance. Pass all this idealistic and naive garbage, and rural communities are going to be faced with moving to the city or forgoing the use of electricity. Of course, then Obama would get his reduction in electricity usage. After all, it would only be those rednecks who "hold to their guns and the bibles" who would suffer. What do they matter to an elitist like Obama?

I don't like McCain, but Obama manages to consistently make me sick with this sort of pandering and ignorance.

OMG.... we are doomed if people can be so easily manipulated to follow Osama......

WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!

-Euclid

reply to post by saturnine_sweet


I think that if you read through the entire thread a little more thoroughly maybe you would see things a little differently.

There are too many people like you who seem to hold onto those blinders like a security blanket.

Things don't change or become better until that first person puts himself out on that limb.

If we keep living for the moment and not looking towards our future (hanging on to our oil problem) we will have no future.

Maybe you don't have any kids and only care about your lifetime but I want a better future for my children and offshore drilling isn't going to allow for that.

reply to post by euclid


Your like that annoying heckler in the audience shouting idiotic things. I've heard this "Osama" crap from you before. It's old and definitely not intelligent.

I invite you to share your thoughts on the OP but do not come back if you want to play the heckler again.

reply to post by anyone


I suppose the first question is: What oil problem? There IS no oil problem. At least, not a natural one. Just a manufactured one. I guess that's where our view diverge. You buy into um...Im guessing both the GW hoax and the peak oil hoax? I guess I just have a hard time even beginning much of a discussion with you, because your perspective diverges so far from reality as to leave us no common ground.

As for "a better day for our children..." well, I think they will be fine. In the meantime, I am not going to suffer my life to line the pockets of others without a fight. If you're happy to, then by all means, move to a communist country and save free people the trouble of dealing with you.

Sorry if this is a little sharp, but you know...after a while, I get tired of people who haven't bothered to educate themselves on the subject. And yes, I know, you'll say you have and start spouting all the crap that backs up GW and PO....except they can all be shot down with a couple paragraphs of REAL science and not speculation and computer models. I guess I'm a bit grouchy this afternoon and just haven't the patience for more arrogant ignorance. (blinders indeed.)

reply to post by saturnine_sweet



I don't have too much to say other than that. I am just delusional and arrogant right?

reply to post by anyone


Well, it's just that myself (and many others) perpetually post why these issues are nothing but drummed up non-issues. Non-issues that could destroy our lives and our country. And we don't post opinions, we post the scientific facts as to why they are not. (Heretics that we are.) Not "scientific speculation," not "computer models," not political propaganda, but just the hard facts. Yet it is as though we might as well not say anything, because those who religiously believe in the coming apocalypse, (unless, of course, us sinners repent and pay our tithes,) don't have any interest in science. I can present facts all until I get CTS, and it won't do any good.

Do you ever get tired of evangelicals telling you to save your soul? Fundamental Islamics ranting against the infidel? If so, then you'll understand why I'm sick of this garbage, and disgusted by Obama's intentions to destroy this country in the name of the naturalist religion. Guess what happens if we follow his plans? We become third world, while China becomes the world's superpower. We all suffer, in the name of Negro Christ and the Church of Darwin. May the mother Gaia hear our prayers. UGH.

Oh, and one other note. For all these people who love Obama and his brand of Socialism: you do know why European countries can survive despite the drain of socialism while the US would never be able to? You have seen a map? Population distribution? Somehow I suspect 99% of Obama's supporters must live in cities, and have no concept of the world outside of their cities.

reply to post by saturnine_sweet


I'm sorry that you feel this way.

I also resent your speculation of who I am.

I can't say that I can relate at all to you either.

Good day, mate.