How To Create Evil.

reply to post by windwaker


wow, by that logic it makes him sound like a massive slave owner.
"we gotta do what massa' says, or they be whippins"
i agree with an earlier poster that good and evil are subjective human creations.

Satan was God's right hand man, kind of like Smithers to Mr. Burns. He was God's highest ranking General. Whatever He commanded, Lucifer followed without question. Then God created man and gave him free will. The ability to believe or not to believe, follow or not follow. God gave man power over everything on Earth, and loved him unconditionally. No matter what man did, or how much he rebelled against God, He still loved him. These rights weren't given to the angels. This made Satan JEALOUS! That was the first sin. And this is what caused Satan, and the other angels who sided with him, to be cast out of Heaven. I wouldn't say it was a "lack" of love that got Satan into trouble.

Originally posted by jakyll

If sin didn't exist before Satan's fall,then where did it come from??

How was Satan tempted to rebel against God if sin didn't exist??

If evil isn't God's creation,then how did the Devil create it??

I believe a sin is not keeping a promise whatever the promise was.

I dont believe in satan, thats just a fable to keep people separated and angry.

What creates evil is secrecy and deceit, oneupmanship and zero sum thinking.

"Unless I have this now, I'll never have it." That's how evil people think.


sarc

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
God didn't do any violence to man ever. So no flood because God wanted to start over. God is love. Anything you read in the Bible that goes against this is wrong in a literal sense and far too few people can agree on what value the stories have but I'm sure there is some great lessons there.

someone close to you is about to be killed by someone you know wants to murder him. his to-be murderer has no intention of letting up or changing his mind. this murderer hates you too and you know he will stop at nothing to hurt you, even if it means killing everyone you love.

do you sit back and watch? is that really loving to you?

everyone loves "god is love", but they hate duet 32:[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

love demands justice. if someone is unloving, and they cause harm, and they do this willingly and with out remorse, is god suppose to sit and watch? is he going to justify the wicked by allowing them redemption in the end? it boils down to accountability, which seems to be the thing people hate most about god.

several things to remember about biblical examples of god's justice.

- most if not all get a second chance (acts 24:[15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.) but second chance isnt to be confused with justification. there is a point where someone who refuses to act with love is "cut off"

- god, who knows how things play out, knows what would happen if he didnt step in. the bible says that it was a very violent time to live in noah's day. how much worse would it have to get before justice was demanded by man?

- he warns people before acting in justice. always, without exception. its estimated that noah was told some 50 years before the flood. no doubt noah attempted to convince people of the impending flood and how to avoid being caught in it during that time.

- he always shows what is needed to be saved. (for noah, it was the ark)

so god's destruction of that world wasnt on a whim. and the people caught in it cant say they werent warned. and there is no reason to think that they wont be given a second chance to learn from the mistake.

justice doesnt make love void.

Originally posted by windwaker
From what I was taught, Satan is not equal to God. He is a creation of God. God has always controlled Satan. There is proof of this in the old testament, especially in The Book of Job. In The Book Of Job, God lets Satan torment almost all of Job's life in order to test Job's loyalty to God.

Satan, therefore, is a tool of God.

this is usually the belief people take when they cant understand how an all knowing god would create a being that he knows will rebel.

knowing someone will do something is not the same as being responsible for it.

in the parable of the the prodigal son, is the father to be blamed for his son's decisions?

god created freewill, and people are right, he would have known that satan was going to become a bad apple. but instead of revoking free will (as he has the right to if he choose) he decided to be patient with us and let us figure out what we want to do.

satan raised questions in eden that make us doubt god's ways of doing things. so man has experimented with every desire, whim, and idea. basically, god is letting us see the consequences we bring on ourselves, that way, when we choose, we are making informed decision.

reply to post by miriam0566

do you sit back and watch? is that really loving to you?

I have run into people like who you are responding to, in church.
You can have five people argue with them for an hour, every good example from the Bible or whatever and logical arguments.
They seem to be completely impervious to reason and they just sit there, after all that, and say, "God does not kill people."
I think it has to be a kind of mental disorder with no available treatment.
I feel a little bad that you spent so much energy trying to be reasonable.
You just have to learn to let go with some people and move on to someone who is receptive to truth.
I was watching the news this morning about the people who died recently on K2.
Half the people died because they tried to help others.
The news reader said for every 3 people who summit K2, one person dies trying.
I have gone through a lot of training in Kayaking from the world's top experts and the hardest thing to learn is when to let other people die.


[edit on 7-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
God didn't do any violence to man ever. So no flood because God wanted to start over. God is love. Anything you read in the Bible that goes against this is wrong in a literal sense and far too few people can agree on what value the stories have but I'm sure there is some great lessons there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
someone close to you is about to be killed by someone you know wants to murder him. his to-be murderer has no intention of letting up or changing his mind. this murderer hates you too and you know he will stop at nothing to hurt you, even if it means killing everyone you love.

do you sit back and watch? is that really loving to you?



several things to remember about biblical examples of god's justice.

- most if not all get a second chance (acts 24:[15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.) but second chance isnt to be confused with justification. there is a point where someone who refuses to act with love is "cut off"

Miriam, why have you backed away from the simple definition we agreed on. God is Love, the absense of which is Evil?

I would kill or (murder) if you prefer, (side note; I love how some Jews and Christians believe there is a difference between "killing" and "murder"
or how so many think that war isn't murder but "justified" "killing" there are rules for war in order to make "killing" legal and we make heros of these "killers" but.........such digression.

I said I would murder the guy that wants to take my family out but you aren't going to hear me say that I did NOT do Evil. I did. Now whether your culture views the act as good or bad, well that is subjective. We still have posters that can't make the distinction because they have been taught that Evil is bad. (for me it is because I want to be closer to God not further) God is incapable of evil, it would be asking him to be anything other than who he is. For the novice it might be easier to think of Love as God and Love as an emotion being seperate, maybe kind of like the trinity thing.

God has never taken a life. He has not started nor condoned nor blessed any war. At some point you have to think and feel for yourself and not use the Bible as the ultimate crutch. The Bible is a tool, a means to educate, it is not to be worshipped.

You also talk about 2nd chances and then at some point being cut off.
I thought Jesus was asked the same thing about forgiveness and he responded 7 x 7 x 7 times or something like that. Was he not saying that you are to forgive as many times as it takes?

....to the other poster; Love as an emotion has an opposite, it is Hate.
The opposite of Love that is God...is Evil.

....to the poster that seems concerned that I may have a mental illness, I am very glad that I wasn't a woman from Salem back in the day, and you were my next door neighbor. I'm sure you would have had me murd....I mean "killed".

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Res Ipsa]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by miriam0566

 

I have run into people like who you are responding to, in church.
You can have five people argue with them for an hour, every good example from the Bible or whatever and logical arguments.
They seem to be completely impervious to reason and they just sit there, after all that, and say, "God does not kill people."
I think it has to be a kind of mental disorder with no available treatment.
I feel a little bad that you spent so much energy trying to be reasonable.
You just have to learn to let go with some people and move on to someone who is receptive to truth.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

Hey, you sound like you could have been in one of my mens bible study groups. You speak like a true Fundamentalist.
1) minister to the weak minded ( "you just have to learn to let go with some people and move on to someone who is receptive to truth.") your quote.
2) uses the Bible for every answer even when you have to jam that square peg into the round hole. The most brilliant minds can't agree on everything in the Bible, yet the fundamentalist gets its marching orders from some other narrow minded leader of the cult and that becomes "The Word of God"
Now the reason I know you weren't in my group is because you also said that you used "logical arguments" oh, that is not one of your groups strengths or maybe you just misspoke.

Why do you suppose this person that can be assailed by 5 other people for an hour and still maintain that God does not kill, does not murder? Did you really think they had a mental illness? I wonder what people thought about Jesus when he was talking all that smack about a loving God when they all knew that God enjoyed exacting revenge on his ant farm project.

Maybe dude just liked to argue and doesn't care either way. Well speaking for this guy, (since I have been him over and over and over again) I do it because the fundamentalist Christian does want a closer relationship with Jesus and God and I just try to help them along, the born agains are the most crucial because they burn bright and fast and all too often either crash or turn into a crazy zealot willing to destroy all those that infect the planet or refuse to accept their "truth" and then there are the fallen from mainstream religions like Catholic for example. That know just enough to see the hypocrisy and say the hell with it. It makes matters even worse when they run into the Fundamentalist because it reinforces the belief that religion is whack.

I present a logical and consistent front for a type of Christianity.
So, to say that God is Love but yet can tell David to kill every man, woman, and child, that refuses to get off their land.....well, my type of Christianity has to throw that out the window. It would be inconsistent otherwise. If you think "logic" like that reflects a mental illness....so be it.

....Noah's Ark.....speaking of mental illnesses.....you do know that much of the Bible....well, at least the most important parts, are in the Gospels and through parables. Don't you think that perhaps Jesus wasn't the first to use parables to teach and just maybe the people in the old test. did that too?
Was there a man named Noah? why not. Did he build a boat? why not.
Did he put all of his animals or as many as he could fit on his raft or boat? why not. Was there 2 of every animal on the planet included? why....what??? of course not. Did this flood kill everything else not on the boat? No. Unless of course God felt the fish were sinless or something.
The point is....there is no reason to think that the story of Noah isn't true...but there is obvious reasons to allow some poetic license in order to "teach" something.
I know we live in a black and white world. Look at all of these posts for example. We got one guy that thinks in absolutes when defining evil and love.
Some of you think or believe that the story of Noah is either all true or all false. Why? Since when in history is anything like that?

reply to post by Res Ipsa

I present a logical and consistent front for a type of Christianity.

Sounds interesting, maybe you should tell me about it some time.
I was trying to be helpful.
You should feel grateful that miriam takes the trouble to respond to you and you should not respond with antagonism.
Since you advocate love and compassion, it might be a good idea to actually practice it, instead of judging others.
I did not directly attach you.
In case you have not noticed, there is a button on the left of your screen that says "Ignore".
So apparently it is not against ATS policy to ignore people.
I was giving some friendly advice to a person who is not well and only has so much energy to post on this forum.


[edit on 7-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

jm,
you and I both know that it is difficult to debate a hot topic while also being able to convey the tone in which we are conversing. My first post was intended to give a nod to Miriam's efforts, for example.

I've been in the religion debate mode since watching Jesus Christ Superstar when I was 7. ( I fought with the nuns, teachers, family and priests about allowing me to have "Judus" as my confirmation name...I lost.)

I can sin with the best of them, but I certainly don't get angry over debating religion and faith. You probably are, as are many, use to people going all midevil over these topics. But you have pegged me wrong.

I suppose it is kind of liking boxing. I mean it is violence but it is a sport and even that type of sanctioned violence has rules, (no below the belt) I too will throw punches but won't attack your ancestors or dog.

One last thing; I profess to have an answer for nearly every moral or Christian challenge BUT I in no way live up to it, I am a poor poor example of a practicing Christian. I am the prime example of "do what I say, not what I do"

reply to post by Res Ipsa

God didn't do any violence to man ever. So no flood because God wanted to start over. God is love. Anything you read in the Bible that goes against this is wrong in a literal sense and far too few people can agree on what value the stories have but I'm sure there is some great lessons there.

Are you serious?
The Bible is full of God's violence.In some cases it may be righteous and it may be justified,but its still violence.
And saying evil originated with God does not make him any less than he is,God can still be love.Karl Marx & Frederick Engels' Communist Manifesto is a plea for a equal and classless society,yet it was used as a weapon of extreme control,oppression and hate.Does that make Marx & Engels evil? No.

See, if God is love, can't do evil, than how does he command someone to go and kill children? Guess what, he doesn't and didn't. Story is not to be literally taken. But you will find plenty of Bible literalist that will find some crazy way around that complete and utter contradiction.

So basically,any story that has God doing violence is not to be taken literally,but all stories that have God showing love are to be taken literally?
And i thought you weren't going to give cop out answers.

God has never taken a life. He has not started nor condoned nor blessed any war.

I guess you just ignore all those wars mentioned in the Bible where God said he will help Israel smite their enemies.

I would kill or (murder) if you prefer, (side note; I love how some Jews and Christians believe there is a difference between "killing" and "murder"

Murder is usually a premeditated act.
If you're in your car and you kill someone who steps out into the road without looking,you are not a murderer.

Was there 2 of every animal on the planet included?

In the story of Noah there are 7 of every animal and they went into the ark 2 by 2.Which would definatly make it one helluva boat! lol.















[edit on 7-8-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by windwaker

Satan, therefore, is a tool of God.

I also believe that Satan is a tool of God and have been discussing it in another thread.It makes sense that he is,especially when take the book of Job into account.After all,how can we prove the strength of our faith and love for God if he can't test it??
www.abovetopsecret.com...'







[edit on 7-8-2008 by jakyll]

Fine.....I am biting on the "cop out answer" challenge.

But first it is a waste of my, your, and readers time if you are going to make huge leaps in faulty logic. Example. Since I said that all acts of violence in the Bible that are attributed to God should be treated as not literally true....Yes that is true...but then you make this crazy leap of logic by saying I also must believe that all acts of Love in the Bible that are done by God needs to be taken literally? WTF?

I have no idea what so ever which stuff in the Bible "actually" happened...either does a single one of you.

But it is easy as hell to tell you certain things that absolutely did not happen. Label me one of those guys that picks and chooses what to believe in the Bible if you want. I do the same thing with history books. I do the same thing when I watch Fox news, CNN, and MSNBC. I especially do it when I study legal cases.

My Christianity is consistent. God does not "kill" nor does he tell people to kill. God can't be Evil since it would require him to not be him. Example: Water in a glass can't be made into Gold.
We are taught "God is Love" most people attribute this love as just an emotion and understand it to mean.....God created love, and he is the ultimate great dude in the sky, all so full of Love and Peace and more Love. But God is literally Love.

Have you ever tried to explain Love to a 4th grader that is experiencing their first crush and how they believe they are going to marry this person because they are so in love? I don't want to sound condecending at all but until you have a better understanding of Agape or God's nature, then we will never get beyond the......"Well it says so in the Bible so there is your proof...."

But I encourage you to start by thinking "Hallmark" in a way. Think about all of the one liners you here about what Love is. "Love is...." and see how many times in the Bible (old testament should be easy enough) that some act of God's just doesn't fit into the...."Love is..." Hallmark card.
You shouldn't be uncomfortable with accepting that God might have been used by the men back in the day to keep the ignorant unsophisticated masses from screwing every goat that winked at them. Fear was necessary to keep order. God will strike you dead if you do this and that.

Hey, if you need a modern example of this....look no further than our current administration. Fear in order to keep us from....(insert objective) after all if we don't obey than the "terrorists" will stike us dead.

Your goal as a Christian should be a closer relationship with God, you need to know who he is, and who he is not, if you are going to make progress towards that.

Now, if you want to throw me some challenge to my consistent Christianity then have at it....but no more leaps of faulty logic. ( I am a Viking fan....that does not mean I therefore hate the Cowboys)

reply to post by Res Ipsa


i think the big question is, does anyone deserve to die. or even the reverse, does anyone deserve to live?

i mean "deserve" as in a right. something that god owes to the person deserving. i get the feeling from what i understand of your faith that you feel the answer is no, no-one deserves to die. and i must say i disagree. granted, i am in no position to determine whether or not a person individually deserves death, but its apparent that some do.

job 11:6b Know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.

i really honestly think there is something to that statement. it opens huge bag of worms in terms of debate, among those is whether the bible is the word of god.

the first "worm" i think we have to ask is what is evil. or what is bad. in my experience, evil is something that results in suffering in some way. any action lacking love results in suffering. and i think i understand where you are coming from. you are saying that the people of noah's day (or any other cataclysm) would have suffered and died and therefore god couldnt have been the one to kill them. but what about those causing the suffering? does this mean that we, who act in love, should allow a person to do whatever they wish even if it causes suffering?

this goes on to another "worm" which is law. now god's law is summed up by jesus with 2 statements, love god, love your neighbor. but then this raises the question what happens when someone breaks that law? this raises some other questions, does god have the right to make laws? if he does, does he have the right to enforce them? how?

if god cannot enforce his laws because he is love then he is not just. this alone is inconsistent, because if god made us in his image, then why do we have such a strong sense of what is just and what is not? you might not be able to explain it, but you'll pick up in a second when your being cheated.

so if god is not just, then why would he make laws? namely one law which is to love. if god does not make laws, then why tell us anything about how we are to live? why write the bible? why even suggest to us what course we should follow?

if god doesnt tell us how to life, then how can he love us and still watch us suffer?

i dont want you to think of me as this christian that just believes the bible because i was told too, on the contrary, no-one told me to. but the bible does make mention how and why god is just, and this doesnt conflict with him being love. there is several things that one must consider.

the first is the example of god's son jesus. now jesus knew long before-hand that he was going to die. he allowed himself to die because he knew he had to die for mankind. now this could be likened to a situation where a person has a gun pointed at your head. granted you arent the one pulling the trigger so the man with the gun lacks the love.

but if you can stop it without hurting anyone, but choose not to, can you say you love yourself? god had the ability to stop the death of his son, but he didnt, he permitted it. jesus probably could have done something but he too permitted it. so was jesus unloving to himself? of course not. it was for the greater good. it was for a greater love. and this is the point, god didnt lack love by letting jesus die because he was doing it for a greater love.

it should also be noted that jesus' death was temporary as he was resurrected 3 days after. its like a child who is about to get a shot of medicine. it may hurt alot and maybe be somewhat traumatic, but its for his good. god did not let jesus (who lived to god's standards perfectly and deserved to live) suffer and die for no reason. it was for the good of all mankind.

so then how does this relate to justice? well what happens to someone who is defiant to god's law? if god not going to "remove" the wicked and he is just going to let everyone do what they want, then how can he possibly aleeve the pain we feel? it would mean that he is unwilling to help those who do follow his commandments and who strive to love others. doesnt that sound unloving to you?

i understand what you are saying about "choosing" what you believe in the bible, but you cutting out basically the whole thing.

if god does not enforce his laws (does something with those un-loving), then that means that he allows suffering (for no real reason).

You also talk about 2nd chances and then at some point being cut off.
I thought Jesus was asked the same thing about forgiveness and he responded 7 x 7 x 7 times or something like that. Was he not saying that you are to forgive as many times as it takes?

2 things about that teaching that jesus gave. 1. he was talking about human to human relations. in verse 35 of matt 18 jesus also shows that forgiving others is a requirement for god's forgiveness. this implies that there are times when god does not forgive which brings me to point 2

chapter 12:31 clearly shows that there is sin that is not forgiven. if you dig deeper into this scripture you find that sinning against the holy ghost involves willingly, knowingly and unrepentantly going against god's will. i would liken this to a person who is evil (un-loving) and knows it, and doesnt have any intention of every changing.

My first post was intended to give a nod to Miriam's efforts

actually i do appreciate it.

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
One last thing; I profess to have an answer for nearly every moral or Christian challenge BUT I in no way live up to it, I am a poor poor example of a practicing Christian. I am the prime example of "do what I say, not what I do"

i wake up every day feeling the same. ill be honest, sometimes i dont post because i feel that way.

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Your goal as a Christian should be a closer relationship with God, you need to know who he is, and who he is not, if you are going to make progress towards that.

this statement confused me alittle, i think it is because i dont know what your views are on whether the bible is inspired by god.

reply to post by miriam0566

i wake up every day feeling the same. ill be honest, sometimes i dont post because i feel that way.

I can not think of a better way to be a Christian than to share your personal insights and knowledge with others.
That is a skill most people do not have and if you have a gift for being able to express a certain kind of wisdom, how better could anyone be expected to do, than to put that to use?
2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
If you look through Paul's writings to see who he describes as being approved by God, you find he uses it for a special class of people who can read scripture and come up with the best way to explain it to others.
Whatever other kind of thing that you may think that you should be doing to be "a good Christian" is not as important as practicing that one thing that you have a unique ability to do.


[edit on 8-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

Miriam, it is possible that if I knew how to paste and cut each line of your post I could take each issue one at a time. But you had so much coverage in your post that I can barely remember any of it. Is there any way that you could just post one question, one belief, one anything at a time? I don't know how to do all that fancy block quote, answer, next block quote and so on.....

I guess I could start with God's Law's. ( now remember, I am as simplified a Christian as I could possibly make myself)

God's Law's and man's Law's use a different definition of Justice.

You just might be able to call it hypocritical if you don't reach a little higher to understand. A mother protecting the criminal son when society wants to exact its justice on him....we understand that the mother has an unconditional love for her son....it doesn't surprize us that she can't be objective. But I tell you that no mother's love for her child ever in history can reach the level of Love God has for all of his children. I'm sorry if that seems unfair or in the face of what we call justice. But you should understand that God IS subjective when it comes to us.

Now for a pseudo science type explanation; God is Love...no love exists with out it being God. We all have the capability to love....we are all part of God....we can reject God we can force our free will upon him and let us seperate ourselves from him slightly or even absolutely.

I think some Christian's think this free will thing is some type of lease on life God has granted us, rather than a giving up of ultimate power. God will not prevent you from picking up a gun and shooting your mother in the face. Can you imagine having the power to stop all suffering and giving that up so a bunch of retarded ungrateful primates can either choose to spit in your face, deny you exist, or smite their own nose in spite of their face? why? just so we could know what it is to Love. to know what love is...to know him.

We are still dealing with God's Law.....The ten commandments were 8 too many as it is. Most of these "God Laws" were created by man. Jesus could have cleared a lot of it up (kind of did) but he would have wasted his whole ministry on trying to teach people why they were too retarded to have only 2 commandments and they needed as many "controls" as the society needed to function. Look at us now. We still are too primative to use an ounce of common sense and need a million laws to function.
What if Obama said... "hey, we all know that we shouldn't drive faster than 75mph on the freeways. so I am taking that law off the books and expect all of you people to just use common sense and not go over 75.....I don't think I even had to finish that sentence before you knew what the obvious result would be. So Jesus wasn't going to waste time fighting that losing battle.

I can't even make this small issue short.....frustrating....

Look, what I am saying is. There is Divine justice and there is human justice.....if you want to understand just a little of what Divine justice is...you need to put down the Bible and feel.....you need to think about whom you have the deepest love in the world for and what you would be willing to do for them.....how far you would go to forgive.....and you have the power to met out the punishment for any wrong they do. Your beautiful 7 year old daughter filches a cookie without permission but knew it was against your wishes, against your rules...against your laws. the bible has you chopping off hands and poking out eyes or stoning your daughter for this or that. Don't you ever presume to be more loving or forgiving than the one that gave you the capacity to be either.

Way too long........so please.....give me a two liner or just one issue at a time and I will give you the "Consistent Christian" religion answer.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Whatever other kind of thing that you may think that you should be doing to be "a good Christian" is not as important as practicing that one thing that you have a unique ability to do.


[edit on 8-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

I'm sorry Jm but you are wrong. They will know we are Christian's by our Love. (that is the most important thing you can do to be a good Christian)

I have a unique understanding, I have unique patience to share this understanding with the worst our society can produce and do battle with the Christian Fundamentalist who do as much spiritual harm as the prior.
Yet I have shed no light on one person that I am aware of. Not one.
I have not brought one person to my knowledge closer to understanding that God is more loving than they had hoped or were taught.
......hmmmm you might be tempted to say that it should be obvious that this isn't my "unique ability". Boy, I would love to agree with you on that. I tell God that all the time. I tell him, I ask him...if you are going to put me into conflict with all of these types of people how about giving me some speaking skills, or some great one liners or something. How about helping me come off less arrogant?

However, I would like to speak again with the hand full of Catholic priests that I use to argue with as a kid about the existence of Hell. I would just love to see them explain to me how the Pope said it is not so much of a place as it is a condition. I was no more than 9 or 10 when I was telling those guys that. It made the paper when John Paul said that. many many years later. So, I might not have convinced anybody of anything....but I am convinced I am talking the right stuff....but aren't we all?

reply to post by Res Ipsa

the Christian Fundamentalist who do as much spiritual harm as the prior.

Do you include catholic priests as fundamentalist?
Being a fundamentalist has more to do with using the Bible as the basis for belief than being a die-hard supporter of an institution.
How did you argue with those priests?
Did you use your understanding of what you thought the Bible said, as opposed to an institutionalized belief, based on Human opinion?
Or did you base your arguments on fantasy?
If you used the Bible, you are a fundamentalist.
Rightly understanding the Scripture is not something that common for someone to do on their own.
Do you think I base my understanding of the Bible on what I think up, as a reaction to the act of reading?
I look at different views from other people who are experts and have spent years researching in their particular area of study.
It takes years of serious study to put together an overall belief system and even that is only possible by benefiting from other's work.
You can go to a library and look at the Religion section and figure 90% of the books are going to be a bunch of crap.
Few people are reliable sources to get decent opinions from, concerning a variety of issues.
Satan will be looking for people who are properly judging words and making proper use of them.
He wants to target them as being a hindrance to his cause.
His way of eliminating such people is to tell them they are bad people and have no business telling other people what to think.
My advice (I was trying to give in what you quote from my post) is to ignore all that (Satan's accusations) and to do the good thing you (miriam) have been doing (posting on religious topics).


[edit on 8-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Res Ipsa


i apologize for my long posts.

what im getting from your post is that man NEEDS laws and enforcement, but god's rulling of man doesnt. am i correct that this is what you were saying?

as for you illustration of a mother and her criminal son. no i dont think she is showing love for her son, in fact i think she hates her son, she just doesnt know it. her son's life not only will cause others pain and suffering, but it also causes him suffering. at some point he needs to learn there is a better way. now he may or may not learn, he may continue to be a criminal, but the mother has a responsibility to him (especially if she claims to love him) to try to set him straight, not only for him but those he hurts too.

its like a mother refusing vital medicine for her son because she knows the needle will hurt, is she loving then? what of the child dies from the lack of medicine, was it worth sparing him the pain of the needle?

Proverbs 13:24 He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

Proverbs 23:13 Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother.

Proverbs 29:17 Correct your son, and he will give you comfort; He will also delight your soul.

so god provides this wisdom for us to use, but then doesnt use it when dealing with us?

reply to post by Res Ipsa


I'm sorry if that seems unfair or in the face of what we call justice. But you should understand that God IS subjective when it comes to us.

This also flies “in the face of” facts.
What I find subjective is your opinion of God.
This analogy you make of a mother’s unconditional love for her criminal son is a severe case of anthropomorphism.


I think some Christian's think this free will thing is some type of lease on life God has granted us, rather than a giving up of ultimate power.

This statement is a reflection of your Catholic upbringing.
The so-called free will as presented by that church is actually a new enslavement to an obligation that is impossible to meet.
That was the central issue that caused the Protestant break from Catholicism.
“How do you think about free will?” was the last words heard by many so-called heretics before the fire was lit around their stake.


Most of these "God Laws" were created by man.

Certain men through history have added laws through their own interpretation.
An example is the law to not cook a calf in its own mother’s milk.
We can easily see how this practice would seem bad to us.
Instead of going ahead and running with the principle behind this law, the doctors of law turned this into what amounts to a whole religion of keeping separate sets of plates and utensils, one for dairy foods and one for meat products.
I ran into the Rabbi one day at the local convenience store and I was having a little conversation with him, and he gave me a real dirty look when I reached for a turkey and cheese sandwich.


Jesus could have cleared a lot of it up (kind of did) but he would have wasted his whole ministry on trying to teach people…

He did…clear things up… by pointing out the spiritual concepts behind the Law and explaining that adding more physical things to do, to the Law, is useless.


the bible has you chopping off hands and poking out eyes

I think you are talking to the wrong audience because if you want to see any culture actually behaving like this, you have to look outside the Christian community.
The important thing to understand about the Hebrew law is that it taught the idea of compensation.
Chopping and poking was not the punishment, but a method of determining value.
For example, you do something bad to someone and your actions result in that person losing the use of his eye.
How much money would you be willing to pay to not have your own eye disabled?
There is what determines the price of compensation to be paid to your victim.

If you guys consider those short postings....

Jm......you seem willing to use common sense regarding an eye for an eye and what it really means....buy you still want to be all literal about everything else...it seems.

There is a fantastic thread out there now....let me think..."Jesus is a Liar" (the title is just to provoke and the Op uses one of the old standard arguments posed to Atheist) But in that thread some people know their stuff and how the Bible was "created" over time.

The Bible is not a book about facts. God did not hand it to anyone. God did not say "don't change a word or I will smote you and thee"

The fact is that a pagan ruler commissioned to have this book written. (really interesting way to sum it up and I wish I thought of it)

Using the Bible to defend your faith is just fine. But to profess that it is the Word of God and is as factual as mathamatics or something...is just plain wrong. It is your "belief" your "faith" that says what the Bible is to you.

So when I argued with my Catholic priests I used the Bible when it comported with my understanding of God. I began my Consistent Christian search and life when I was 6 or 7 I suppose...But Jesus Christ Superstar was really the big bang for me.

I have often been critisized for "picking and choosing" what I want out of the Bible to serve "my" purpose. I still don't understand what need I should have to defend that, where is the mistake in logic?
...if you read a book about 9/11 and you read that 8 planes were involved, the attack happened in Chicago, over a thousand people died, Clinton was President, Iran was responsible, it happened in 2001, it happened in the morning, it wasn't reported on t.v. until 7pm that night etc... How would you explain what happened to your class of 4th graders that just read that book for your class?
No, really, take a few seconds to at least understand what I am saying and not what you think I am saying. The Bible is that book to me.

I would be a fool to argue that it didn't happen as it says in the book in 2001. But I would equally be mistaken if I agreed or professed that Clinton was the President at the time too. So yes, I can pick and choose to....wait for it......wait for it...... to be the "Consistent Christian" that I strive to be. God is Love and working from there all is understandable.

Miriam, Spare the rod spoil the child. So disturbing on several levels. Taken literally you still think God can be or teach "violence" I guess Jesus showed up his old man by "turning the other cheek"
Back to the loving mother, who for some reason you twisted into hating her child.....I sure have heard that on more than one occassion from some of my scary fundamentalist friends and foes.
You just don't love when you choose not to love. It is just that obvious. But I will hook you guys up with an example. If I spank my child for .....whatever.....I am doing violence....I may have some great intentions, I may be mad, I may be both, it doesn't matter. Now, if you will follow me to the next level.....can it be justified? Of course. I am teaching....I am helping your child be a good human....you might be preventing them from playing in the street with cars again becasue they fear another beating. So it was for the greater good. Yayyyy...sometimes choosing not to love is motivated by a greater love and sometimes even resulting in it. But God doesn't wield the hand that spanks....it is OUR fault that we even need to spank. Perhaps I wasn't trained in behavior modification and so spanking is all I knew to handle my child. But...I do know behavior modification so I get the same results as the fundamentalist spanker with out laying a hand on my child.
I wonder how good God is at teaching without resorting to "spanking" maybe he could call me if he needed some help....I mean flooding the world is a pretty tough spanking after all.

Using the Bible "exclusively" to teach, minister, defend, "prove", is how fundamentalist got labled "Bible Thumpers" in the first place. They don't use common sense, they aren't consistent, and use circular arguments. Every religion seems to have this group and they are the ones that are "spanking" all the rest of us.

No, Catholics are not fundamentalist en mass. We do not take the Bible literally word for word. If we did, then the Pope wouldn't have dismissed Hell like he did. Us Lutheran's are even less fundamental. We focus on JC's teachings and the spirit of the laws I suppose.

.....God did not take Constintine aside and tell him what books to put in the Bible, he didn't speak to all of the guys at the counsel of Niceaa or later in Trent. Man slapped it together and it is a "where is Waldo book" and THAT was by God's design.....seek and ye shall find. God didn't say...uh, don't think, be complacent, I spelled it all out for you, so go back to watching t.v.

.....and the reason I stand by my "Christian Fundamentalism is one of the most dangerous threats to Christianity" is because it pushes many people off an already dangerous and tough road into the aybss of a Godless life.
Out of 100 people, one will read the Bible and the remaining 99 will watch what he does. ( I stole that awesome line or idea from that thread too.) How perfect to describe why I fear and debate the fundamentalist. 99 people will see and hear what you preach and believe and know in their hearts that it just doesn't feel right and move on to find a better meaning of life....away from JC and God. I am sure there is something in the Bible that warns the fundamentalist to not do that....but I bet they twist it into meaning literally.....don't change or add anything to my word nor teach anything that isn't in here or you will burn in Hell for leading people astray from me......something like that. I assure you there is no evil, nor sin in teaching people that God is Love.