An Attempt to Debunk Chemtrails For Good

Lots of great new information in support of Chemtrails being posted. Every time I look in on this thread there is new information. I was thinking, earlier, whilst reading through here. Something Weedwhacker said struck a chord with me. It was the comment about baiting. Especially as he himself has been caught red handed* baiting people in this thread. I am sure if we take Moderator JAK's advice and behave in a civil manner we will progress rapidly. No calling chemtrail theory supporters "childish", no demanding they "grow up", no proclaiming links to evidence provided is "nonsense" or "impossible" without even reading it or providing a reason why...

The open minded will fulfill the ATS tagline. And this government secret, if it exists, will be uncovered. I don't believe challenging the government line is a bad thing. The governments of the world have been proven to be liars in the past. As have some posters on this thread.

Best Wishes.

*check back for the proof, i listed post-times/evidence in a previous post.

Originally posted by TruthTellist
chemtrails are a part of the NATO Aerosolized Defense System. Here is an example of it being tested during a meteor shower.

A new Defense System?

(scroll 2/3 of the way down the page)

Here is another non-animated example:

Hidden Right out In the Open...

An Attempt To Discredit the Discoverer

Scroll Down halfway.

Nice posts Swingarm & Truelight.

I read that TT, interesting. I think the HAARP aspect and its association with chemtrails should be investigated more.

Best Wishes.

reply to post by TrueLight


Truelight,

Having temporarily placed the three main 'Debunkist Skepticus/Obfusticae Maldatus' on my ignore list, I must say this thread looks amazing.

The abundance of information and the quality of it truly stands out when viewed from such a perspective. I recommend you try it, if only for a quick review from a new perspective whereby the negativity has been mostly removed.

The quality of the contributions is outstanding... this is an amazing thread.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by TruthTellist]

I came accross this clip on youtube, conscious hiphop is one of my interests. So I was surprised to see there is even a RAP about Chemtrails! haha. Despite the validity of the content of the track, it certainly says something when a subject comes to the attension of underground music. Despite the fact that the track is not the best I have heard, I think there may be a few clues in it. Especially what is mentioned about freezing? And one of the pictures where trails apear to be coming from somewhere other than the engines (Timecode 02:04). Perhaps weed could clear that up for us. I am sure there are a couple more clues in the lyrics or pics that I missed. I don't doubt this can be seen as fear mongering. That doesn't mean it is factually incorrect.



Best Wishes.

Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by TrueLight

 

Truelight,

Having temporarily placed the three main 'Debunkist Skepticus/Obfusticae Maldatus' on my ignore list, I must say this thread looks amazing.

The abundance of information and the quality of it truly stands out when viewed from such a perspective. I recommend you try it, if only for a quick review from a new perspective whereby the negativity has been mostly removed.

The quality of the contributions is outstanding... this is an amazing thread.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by TruthTellist]

Fair play to you TT. I was actually wondering it myself a little while ago. If there would be some way to just extract everything that wasn't part of the official government story from this thread. For the purposes of collating pro-chemtrail theory information. And now you have come through with the solution. Ha. Brilliant!

Best Wishes.

EDIT to add, you said the thread was amazing, I even Flagged it a little while back when I realised everyone needed to read it, haha , imagine that.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by TrueLight]

[edit on 19/0808/08 by neformore]

reply to post by neformore

Part of it has to do( for me, anyway, not that I have EVER put anyone on ignore) with us standing firm and CONTINUING to research and open people's eyes.
If we just go with the official story, we will forget about it.
I guess those near Nazi death camps, got used to it, accepted the government's story and quit saying anything.


[edit on 19-8-2008 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by neformore

Putting people on ignore, solely because they don't conform to your views, is an admission of defeat, surely? It shows that instead of coming here to discuss the object of posting was to dictate. Thats not open mindedness, thats closed thinking.

For the purpose of collating information, nothing more. It's on its way now. Won't be a jiffy. My ignore list is uncleared again.

Here is the list so far of supporting links provided by Chemtrail Theorists to this discussion PART1

(For the benefit of newcomers)

www.chycho.com... - Germany admits chemtrail operations

www.rense.com... - Chemtrails coming out the closet

www.evergreenaviation.com... - Evergreen aviation spray planes

home.iae.nl... - Chemical testing admitted

thomas.loc.gov...:H.R.2977.IH: - Kucinich bill HR.2977

globalresearch.ca... - Weather modification

weatherwars.info... - weatherwars

www.redding.com... - news article

www.bbsradio.com... - radio article

www.holmestead.ca... - chem link

members.aol.com... - chem link 2

educate-yourself.org... - educate yourself chemlink 3

www.holmestead.ca... - evergreen cia front

www.carnicom.com... - carnicom 1

www.abovetopsecret.com... - ats thread

www.holmestead.ca... - more cia link

www.carnicom.com... - carnicom 2

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com... - forbidden knowledge chemtrails link

www.alienzoo.com... - alien zoo link

home.iae.nl... - chemical testing admission

www.sourcewatch.org... - cia links

www.lewrockwell.com... - cia tie in 2

www.abovetopsecret.com... - another ats thread

www.bariumblues.com... - barium blues

www.abovetopsecret.com... - bioweapons tested on citizens

www.carnicom.com... - aircraft mechanics claim

www.apfn.org... - biological experiments on citizens

foia.state.gov... - foia link

www.lib.berkeley.edu... - declassified documents

www.wramc.army.mil... - walter reed army docs

www.wramc.army.mil... -

creeping nematodes

www.chemtrailcentral.com... - Chemtrail central

weatherwars.info... - weather wars

www.youtube.com... - scott stevens youtube vid

illuminatimatrix.wordpress.com... - alt chemtrail view

www.rense.com... - weather modification rense

www.chycho.com... - german army admits spraying

news.bbc.co.uk... - usa admits chem weapons testing

www.timesonline.co.uk... - times online article

globalresearch.ca... - canadian site

www.abovetopsecret.com... - ATS thread

www.infowars.com... - info wars link

en.wikipedia.org... - wiki chemtrails

www.youtube.com... youtube vid , toxic sky

www.metacafe.com... toxic sky part 2

video.google.com... google video, clouds of death

www.bariumblues.com... haarp patent

www.montalk.net... montalk cloudbusting info

www.youtube.com... youtube search cloudbusting

www.freepatentsonline.com... patents list

www.patentstorm.us... patents list 2

video.google.com...# - google video wilhelm reich

www.geocities.co.jp... torsion fields

chem11.proboards2.com... - chemtrails discussion

www.exopolitics.org.uk... - chemtrails and orbs

www.bariumblues.com... orbs photo'd

www.youtube.com... youtube vid

www.rense.com... more rense research

www.novavax.com... novax site

www.montalk.net... - chemtrails and sars

www.guardian.co.uk... - newspaper story

www.youtube.com... youtube vid

www.proliberty.com... - proliberty site

www.myhero.com... - dr rosalie bertell biography

www.youtube.com... dr rosalie bertell states chemtrails real

www.youtube.com... dr rosalie bertell on haarp

www.whale.to... chemtrails site

divinecosmos.com... david wilcock site

www.divinecosmos.com... david wilcock alt link

www.youtube.com... youtube cloudbuster search

www.youtube.com... youtube cloudbuster search 2

www.uow.edu.au... sci fraud

seattlepi.nwsource.com... sci article 1

www.nature.com... sci article 2

physicsandphysicists.blogspot.com... sci article 3

(Cont...)

reply to post by TrueLight

Here is the list so far of supporting links provided by Chemtrail Theorists to this discussion PART2

www.geocities.co.jp... - geocities site

montalk.net... - timeline dynamics

enterprisemission.com... nato aerosol defence

members.tripod.com... aerosol defence 2

enterprisemission.com... aerosol defence 3

montalk.net... HAARP earthquakes hurricanes

www.bariumblues.com... - reason for chemtrails

www.willthomas.net... - concern over chemtrails




Books Etc

Amazon books on chemtrails

Dr. Len Horowitz, "Death in the Air: Globalism, Terrorism and Toxic Warfare".

A.K. Johnston, PhD. "UFO tactics: Weather Shield to Chemtrails".

K. Ya. Kondratyev, : "Climatic Effects of Aerosols and Clouds".

William Thomas, "Chemtrails Confirmed".

Tim Swartz and Timothy Beckley, "The Lost Journals of Nikola Tesla: HAARP-Chemtrails and Secret of Alternative 4".

Ed Regis, "The Biology of Doom: America's Secret Germ Warfare Project".

J.D. Aber and K.J. Nadelhoffer, "Nitrogen Saturation in Northern Forest Ecosystems." Bioscience, 39 (1989) pages

378-386

American Geophysical Union, "Jet contrails to be significant climate factor by 2050," AGU press release no. 99-19,

6/21/99

R.B. Ames and W.C. Malm, "Estimating the Contribution of the Mohave Coal-fired Power Plant Emissions to Atmospheric

Extinction at Grand Canyon National Park." In Visual Air Quality" Aerosols and Global Radiation Balance, Air and

Waste Management Association, Pittsburgh, Pa., 683-697, 1997.

Marcus Dalton, "Chemtrails Are Over Las Vegas." Las Vegas Tribune, vol. 7 Issue 3, 8/19/05

S.L. Baughcum, "Subsonic aircraft emission inventories, In:Atmospheric Effects of Aviation:First Report of the

Subsonic Assessment Project." NASA RP-1385, pp. 15-29, 1996

Bill Gallagher, "Chemical Aurora Keyhole Surveillance." Arizona Indymedia, May 2004

Laura Kelly, "Mysterious powder shrouds area." The Alpenhorn News, Feb. 2006

D.M. Hunten, "Residence Times of Aerosols and Gases in the Stratosphere." Geophysical Research Letters 2(1): 26-27,

1975

A.C. Mueller, "The Effects of Particulates from Solid Rocket Motors Fired in Space." Advances in Space Research 5

(2): 77-86, 1985.

U. Schumann, "In Situ Observations of Particles in Jet Aircraft Exhausts and Contrails for Different Sulfur-

Containing Fuels." Journal of Geographical Research, Vol. 101, Issue D3, 1996.

weather mod patents


6569393-5/27/03-Method and Device for Cleaning the Atmosphere.
6520425-2/18/03-Proces and Apparatus for the Production of Nanofibers.
6412416-7/2/02-Propellant-Based Aerosol Generation Devices and Method.
6315213-11/13/01-Method of Modifying Weather.
6263744-7/24/01-Automated Mobility-Classified-Aerosol Detector.
6056203-5/2/00-Method and Apparatus for Modifying Supercooled Clouds.
6030506-2/29/00-Preparation of Independently Generated Highly Reactive Chemical Species.
5984239-11/16/99-Weather Modification by Artificial Satellite.
5762298-6/9/98-Use of Artificial Satellites in Earth Orbits Adaptively to Modify the Effect that Solar Radiation

Would Otherwise Have on Earth's Weather.
5628455-5/13/97-Method and Apparatus for Modification of Supercooled Fog.
5286979-2/15/94-Process for Absorbing Ultraviolet Radiation Using Dispersed Melanin.
5104069-4/114/92-Apparatus and Method for Ejecting Matter from an Aircraft.
5038664-8/13/94-Method for Producing a Shell of Relativisitic Particles at an Altitude Above the Earth's Surface.
4999637-3/12/91-Creation of Artificial Ionization Clouds Above the Earth.
4873928-10/17/89-Nuclear-Sized Explosions without Radiation.
4686605-8/11/87-Method and Apparatus for Altering a Region in the Earth's Atmosphere, Ionosphere, and/or

Magnetosphere.
5218374-6/8/93-Power Beaming System with Printer Circuit Radiating Elements Having Resonating Cavities.

reply to post by TrueLight


Thanks for taking the time to that TrueLight. When organized in this manner it's quite easy for newcomers to view the info. The bell brothers ding and dong (said affectionately ) should have a list also so one compare the quality of information on both sides of this discussion easily.

reply to post by TrueLight




[edit on 19/0808/08 by neformore]

reply to post by neformore


neforemore....I am in awe of our ablity to take off the 'Mod' hat, and just be a member.

(May I also say.....your avatar and background color makes it very difficult to see your 'screenname'???)

Maybe it's my monitor.....but, my comments still stand, as is....some would say 'STET'

WW


EDUT I typed 'our' when I meant 'your'.....sorry!!


[edit on 8/19/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by neformore
When you look up you have no points of reference to judge distance from. As such, without the aid of radar, how are you judging your heights?

I have a fairly good spatial sense and am good at gauging distances in hundreds of yards due to many years of running track and cross country where you run set distances repeatedly. After doing this ad infinitum (and a bit of hitting at the driving range) I've become quiet good at judging distance.

Another factor which helps me judge distance like this is I live around a lot of very tall buildings as I live within walking distance of downtown Houston. This gives me a lot of tall objects with known heights to judge things against.

Having worked at downtown for sometime and having lived under several airports (Houston Hobby, IAH + several small civi + mili) I've done a good bit of peering at things in the sky when their distance is known.

Also, there is a highrise nearby which doesn't exceed 30 stories and both jets were not much higher than that building.

Weather conditions vary at height, and so does air temperature and saturation....

These jets passed through each others airspace. One of the jets was right behind the other at the same alt. and its stream experienced no such breaks. I have several high resolutions photos from that date with accurate time stamps, I will be more than happy to find the appropriate charts for my area.

By the way, knowing how large a jet is suppose to look at X ft (say, 50ft) and then comparing that to the current size of the jet you see is another 'pretty good' way to judge distance. You seem especially interested in how I'm gauging distance so I thought I'd share.

Persistent contrails can and do form (as backed up by NASA research shown in a post above).

Yes, I absolutely agree. I constantly see them at very high altitudes and they are constantly bright white and then slowly dissipate without turning into massive clouds which cloak the city. They look and act nothing like chemtrails. Perhaps you've never seen a chemtrail in real life? They are very easy to distinguish from regular contrails.

Covered this lots and lots of times - Dispersal.

I want to make sure we are on the same page here.

1. Citizens report strange planes dropping strange jet streams.
2. Citizens wake up and find strange and unusual residue on their vehicles, etc
3. You claim these two events are not related

Is that correct?

Regards

Originally posted by TrueLight

Truelight: perhaps you'd care to explain firstly what you actually mean y chemtrails - are you referring to the 'lines in the sky' that others mean by the term? Or do you mean any spraying of anychemicals at any altitude for any reason?

Obviously the latter includes stiff like crop spraying, cloud seeding, chaff etc which no-one denies.

If you wish to argue a theory it does help if you tell us what it is. Or are you just here to argue for the sake of?

And secondly, perhaps you'd care to elucidate on how some of the links you posted support your assertion? Because I see a lot of non sequiturs and straw dogs amongst them. For example:

www.chycho.com... - Germany admits chemtrail operations

Germany actually admits deployment of chaff dusing a military exercise, following compliants that it affected radar. There is no mention of chemtrails. However, the news reports has been given false subtitles. Can't think why?

contrailscience.com...

www.rense.com... - Chemtrails coming out the closet

The purpose of Bill S517 was to set up a Board to investigate and control cloud seeding. Unfortunately it was not passed. Cloud seeding is currently carried out in the USA by various private companies. Would you prefer to see some Federal control of it and investigation into the long term consequences? I would.

www.evergreenaviation.com... - Evergreen aviation spray planes

Evergreen sell planes for cloud seeding. But we all know cloud seeding takes place. We also know it takes place in or above pre existing clouds and cannot be seen from the ground. So what's your point? It may be something we should be concerned about, but it is not what people usually mean by chemtrails and certainly does not produce 'lines in the sky'.

home.iae.nl... - Chemical testing admitted

Another straw dog - we know such low level chemical spraying has taken place at various times in the past. It does not prove that the meteorologoical explanation for what people today claim to be chemtrails is wrong (which surely is the point - there is a long standing, robust, theory which you disagree with with. But which chemtrailers like yourself resolutely refuse to attempt to falsify. Maybe because you know that the theory is not incorrect?

If you wish to prove and elephant is a mouse, show that it cannot be an elephant. Showing that someone saw a mouse somewhere else under different circumstances does not prove anything.

thomas.loc.gov...:H.R.2977.IH: - Kucinich bill HR.2977

This bill - twice modified and 3 times rejected - mentioned chemtrails in it's original draft. It does not explain what they are, how they are deployed nor how they might be identified. Nor even whether such a weapon exists. It's simply one of a number of exotic, theoretical, weapons and may one day be utilised according to the beilef of the person who drew the bill.

All it proves is that that person had heard of chemtrails.

globalresearch.ca... - Weather modification

And we're back to cloud seeding again which we all know has been carried out for decades, is big business in the USA, and has nothing whatsoever to do with what most people mean by chemtrails .....

And so on and so on.

Meanwhile, since you like lists:

Airborne Observations of Contrail Effects on the Thermal Radiation Budget - Peter M Kuhn 1970

Measurements of the Growth of the Ice Budget in a Persisting Contrail
R.G. Knollenberg 1972

An Empirical Model to Predict Widespread Occurrences of Contrails

A Satellite-Based Climatic Description of Jet Aircraft Contrails and Associations with Atmospheric Conditions, 1977–79
James Q. DeGrand, Andrew M. Carleton, David J. Travis, and Peter J. Lamb - 1999

On the Transition of Contrails into Cirrus Clouds
F. Schröder, B. Kärcher, C. Duroure, J. Ström, A. Petzold, J.-F. Gayet, B. Strauss, P. Wendling, and S. Borrmann - 1998


A Case Study of the Development of Contrail Clusters over the Great Lakes
David P. Duda, Patrick Minnis, Louis Nguyen, and Rabindra Palikonda - 2003 (abstract only)

MM5 Contrail Forecasting in Alaska
Martin Stuefer, Xiande Meng, and Gerd Wendler - 2004 (abstract only)

Composite Atmospheric Environments of Jet Contrail Outbreaks for the United States
Andrew M. Carleton, David J. Travis, Kara Master, and Sajith Vezhapparambu - 2006 (abstract only)

Observations of Aircraft Dissipation Trails from GOES
David P. Duda and Patrick Minnis - 2001

A Reexamination of the Formation of Exhaust Condensation Trails by Jet Aircraft
Harvey M. Hanson and Douglas M. Hanson - 1995

reply to post by Essan


Chemtrails- mystery lines in the sky

Originally posted by neformore
Yep.

Windspeed at ground level and windspeed at height are two very different things.

The atmosphere acts as a fluid, and ....

I don't see how this proves that the residue didn't originate from the jets in question.

Perhaps I'm missing something.

[edit on 20-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]