An Attempt to Debunk Chemtrails For Good

This is mainly for the fence sitters (merely to produce alternative evidence to the usual stuff here), but I invite everyone that wants to put forward their opinion and discussion. Basically the point of this thread is to explain how contrails occur, persist and spread out, using basic meteorology, that is already proven. If anyone can disprove it, maybe I will start investigating further, but as this point in time, nobody can prove that contrails we are seeing are in fact chemicals being sprayed into the atmosphere

Point One- Contrail Formation
Contrails are formed when hot and moist exhaust from jet engines is mixed into a very cold environment with a low vapour pressure. The cloud (contrails in the met world a classified as Cirrus cloud), is formed when the turbulence from the jet engine mixes with the surrounding air, providing that the temperature is cold enough and the vapour pressure is low enough, for the air to become saturate with ice. This is why contrails only form at a planes crusing altititude and not lower. The link below shows the Appleman chart which is used to measure the likelihood of contrails.

asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...

Point Two- Contrail Persistance and growth
Many chemtrail theorists claim that contrails do not spread out, but chemtrails do. This is very untrue and shows a lack of knowledge of how the upper atmosphere works. If the atmosphere is moist enough to hold a contrail for an extended length, chances are that it will spread out to cover sky, forming a layer of cloud known as cirrostratus. If the atmosphere is dry, then the contrail will fail to persist and growth will not occur or will be limited. It should be mentioned that weather balloons are used to retrieve data in the atmosphere, then that information is used against the Appleman chart for forecasting purposes.

cimss.ssec.wisc.edu...

Point Three- Upper winds and Jetstreams
Some chemtrail believers claim to experience chemicals falling on them after witnessing contrails being formed in the sky. This is almost impossible to occur unless the wind from 30'000ft to the surface is calm all the way down. Never in the history of weather balloons, has the wind been calm in a 30'000ft gap. In reality, upper wind speeds and directions vary greatly, For someone to spray a chemical at such a height to reach the ground would be a waste of time. The link below shows the vast differences between wind speed and direction. Plausible? I think not

www.australianweathernews.com...

The location of the jetstream must also be taken into account. These are used near crusing altitude to reduce flying time and fuel consumption for commercial ailines. They are defined as fast flowing, narrow air currents found at the tropopause. Winds in excess of 200 knots (almost 400kph), have been recorded in jetstreams, so imagine dropping a something into one of these. Its certainly not going to reach the ground below, in fact it willl probably be dispersed to safe levels.

en.wikipedia.org...

Point Four


The above quote is from a chemtrail website, claiming that chemtrails first occured in 1997. Now read the quote below. Are the chemtrailers just lying or scaremongering. As you can see, contrails have been forecast and observed since the birth of high altitude aircraft. There are hundreds of photos of aircraft from these early era's that show contrails being formed on bombing runs from the UK to Germany, surely this was well before 1997 wasn't it? The third link has a few photos to get you started



cimss.ssec.wisc.edu...

educate-yourself.org...

goodsky.homestead.com...

Point Five


The above quote is from the chemtrail website again. Isn't it interesting that most contrails form over the highest regions for air traffic? Coincidence?

Here's a quick link that shows air traffic density in a one hour period

www.hq.nasa.gov...

Now who can disprove the above meteorological evidence and links that say contrails are exactly what myself and many others have been saying?

And for the people that dont believe in chemtrails, please feel free to add other evidence I may have missed

meh alittle hard to debunk official disclosure






its always possible these sites are incorrect i guess...

p.s i have no doubt as to what you say is correct, however i suspect not every chemtrail is a contrail and vice versa

[edit on 5-8-2008 by Demandred]

Good post, OZ. I'm one of the fence-sitters. I've actually done a bit of research on this supposed phenomenon. I am also a weather-weenie, although not even close to the arena of knowledge you posess.

This is what makes me wonder, and granted, it is anecdotal, and therefore suspect; I would expect the same standard put toward my story as any other unsupported story, and this IS unsupported.

Here goes: For the last three years, I've been pursuing the green flash. For those that aren't familiar with this atmospheric experience, or think it's a legend told to tourists -- the green flash is most often an inferior mirage, and requires a surface (the sea, for instance) that is warmer than the ambient air. It also generally requires some elevation above the horizon to see and photograph. Immediately after the sun goes down (or just before the sun comes up) , the light rays are refracted and, defract through the atmosphere, producing the view of a flash of green or blue. There are a myriad of related phenomena.

Okay, bear with me here, OZ. I've captured about 20 green flashes, all after sunset. Exceptional ones have been less than six. I figured that worst case was, after a couple of years, I'd have thousands of beautiful tropical sunsets captured, and I do. I am RICH with sunset photos. There is NO such thing as a bad sunset......... until recently.

Here's where the speculation comes in. So, a few months ago, I am on top of the bluff, taking pictures of newborn Booby birds. I look overhead and see several crosses of contrails. Now this is unusual for our experience. We're a teensy island, with less than 1500 souls here. True, we have airports and jets, and contrails are not unusual, just the curious crossing. Generally, the contrails go in the direction of the planes -- toward the big island 85 miles to our NW. So, I take photos of the contrails, just becuase they are unusual.

The following week, we began experiencing something I don't recall, at least for the past 2 years. Prior to that I cannot truthfully say, as I wasn't as aware of sunsets as I am now. What changed, is that now there is an everpresent haze........ the sun sets into it, and I cannot see the moment it crosses the horizon...... it just fades to zilch.

We have no industry here, although nearly everyone has an automobile. I've been looking at the Saharan dust layer, looking for plumes of particulate from volcanic action, even considered the Florida fires. I can't figure it out. Now, I realize I'm trying to attach a causitive action toward a possibly unrelated observation. Still, I can shake this whackamole notion.

Two weeks ago, we had a weak wave pass through here (before that was a tropical storm that was somewhat close)>..... and that wave cleared the air. For the first time in months, the "seeing" at night was good, and the known celestial objects and known satellites were again very bright. Shortly thereafter, the dreaded crossed and double-crossed contrails. Thereafter, the "seeing" is fuzzy, and this is a place that has almost no light pollution -- look at us on the night view of GoogleEarth...... we don't even cause a dim glow.

Listen, I know how this sounds. My background is in chemistry, with a minor in math and physics. I believe in empirical evidence..... that's why I feel like such a wingnut telling you all this.

So here I am, no more sundown pictures, at least until a hurricane passes by or over. The most colorful sundowns are often immediately after a tropical cyclone. Currently, the haze is back. I think to myself:

is this (a) a global phenomenon?
(b) a Caribbean factor, related to some variable I am unfamiliar with?
(c) something I can figure out if I spend enought time on CIMSS?
(d) something I should just chock up to long-term Rayleigh or Mie scattering and say to hell with it, no green flash for you???

I'm stumped, and feel like a fool for laying this all out.

Anyway, that's my subjective story. I think I have a sense of you OZ, and I don't think you'll dismiss this with a one-line post, but I truly want to know what you think. There's probably nowhere else here I'd post this story. I hardly believe it myself, but I do. If only I hadn't spend the last few years taking sunset photos, I could talk myself into a "seasonal" thang.

Sorry to be so verbose, but you asked.

By the way, Oz, I thought this was really kind of begging the question:



You're kind of saying all chemtrails are really contrails and therefore the presumtion is incorrect as we KNOW contrails were in existance before 1997. That's not really a clear logical argument, as it is hinged on the hypothesis that chemtrails don't exist. Do you see what I mean?

Anyway, I hope you can provide an explanation that resonates plausibly for me. I don't want to believe in chemtrails. This is not a challenge, by the way......... the simplest explanation to my story would be to say that I've invented the variables in the equation, or have mistaken or exaggerated the observable phenomenon. I really want to know, simple as that.

Part Two

Point SevenCloud Seeding
Yes. cloud seeding is weather modification but it has nothing to do with contrails/ chemtrails. Cloud seeding occurs well below where contrails exist. At contrail altitude any water vapour exists as ice crystals. Cloud seeding occurs in much warmer layers where water exists as liquid droplets or as supercooled droplets but where ice layers form on the cloud nuclei, eventually getting heavier and forming rain. Silver Iodide (not toxic unless drunk as a high concentration) has a crystal like structure, much like ice. It is used to increase the mass of the water droplets, helping them fall as rain. Studies have shown that cloud seeding is not totally effective in some regions

www.cmar.csiro.au...

Point EightWeather phenomenen mistaken as chemtrail activity

There are several well known weather phenomenen that have been labelled as evidence of chemtrails, including rainbow clouds, contrail shadows and halo's.

Iridescence/ Irisation- Coloured clouds. Occurs when similar sized water droplets in clouds diffract sunlight, giving the clouds rainbow colours.

www.atoptics.co.uk...

Halos- Occur when ice crystals high up in the atmosphere refract sunlight, giving different shapes or points in the sky. Sundogs are a common type of halo and may also display a rainbow colour

www.atoptics.co.uk...

Contrail Shadows- Caused when a contrail casts a shadow onto a lower cloud layer. Unfortunantly these are uswed by many chemtrail theorists as evidence of chemicals being sprayed. Another lack of research and knowledge

www.atoptics.co.uk...

reply to post by argentus

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Thank you for your honesty and observant disposition!
As a true 'chemtrailer', I have no proof, but, I know they're real.


The problem is, as a high school dropout, blah blah, I don't know a CONCLUSIVE way to prove it.
The fact that airlines like Evergreen aviations sell planes for 'weather modification' should wake people up to the fact that spraying anything on an unknowing population is going on!

I saw our mountains go from stunning to china-style haziness in a couple of weeks in '05.
The planes are military for the most part. We have Rangers that train here in the mountains,(Not saying they're a part of it.)
so thus we have a lot of military.

It's been PROVEN that spraying ecoli and other stuff has been done in America and Britain! Chemical testing
Check the links, please.
It's infuriating that it's being done and no one has PROVEN it, yet...

Why would Kucinich introduce a bill that included a ban on chemtrailing in 2001?
Bill Hr. 2977

reply to post by Demandred

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Yes, I have seen both of these articles before

The first one is a re-write of an original article from a German newspaper. The only problem is that the word chemtrail was never used in the original. The issue at hand was that chaff, launched by military planes during war games was disrupting weather watch radar used by the German meterologists. Chaff is aluminium, plastic or fibreglass "strips", which create a tiny cloud to create false echos on a radar, which is what it was doing to the germans weather watch radar. I know someone has the original article around, i think it was posted on an earlier thread of mine, will check it out

en.wikipedia.org...(radar_countermeasure)

The second one is from Rense.com which says a lot about the credibility (or rather lack of credibilty) of the article. After reading a few articles on Rense, I decided not to bother going there anymore and joined ATS instead

reply to post by argentus

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Thankyou Argentus

Its hard for me to make a comment without actually seeing it, so I wont make any conclusions unless you are able to provide some photos.
Also, would love to see some of your green flash photos....I hear they are quite elusive at times

www.atoptics.co.uk...

And for the part about the dates. Most pro-chemtrail websites show pictures of contrails (claimed to be chemtrails) and claim that they are chemtrails. Similar pictures dating back to the early 20th century so ver similar pictures, similar to those on the chemtrail site, which says these only started occuring since 1997. Photographic evidence proves they occured much earlier than these sites allege

reply to post by OzWeatherman

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Look at this thread
Why do you think that 'contrail' pattern is normal?


Or this one I took last year over my mountain home?


I know you're smart in avianautics!




[edit on 5-8-2008 by Clearskies]

[edit on 5-8-2008 by Clearskies]

I'll dig up a couple of the best ones I have and post them here, OZ. The first one I captured....... it appeared as convex on both sides, and appeared "floating" above the horizon. For all practical purposes, it was a green UFO. People I showed the photo to almost always said: "Oh, man, that looks so fake." hahahaaaaa! It's true. It DOES look fake.

Give me a day, I'll wander through my archived disks and share a few winners (well, winners, IMO).

I know. It's very difficult to address an anecdotal recounting. If I didn't have so much photographic evidence of what once was, and is no more, I myself would think I was making a mountain out of a molehill.

I really miss the nightly event. I'd go to the bar across the street, set up my tripod on a table on an elevated dock/cabana, and watch the sunset, accompanied by a couple of Heninkens; sometimes my Bride would join me. No point in even going there any more. I can't even see the Sun as a sphere lately....... it's just a diffuse glow. I don't know what to make of it. I believe my observations are merely evidence, a far cry from proof.

Cheers

reply to post by Clearskies

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Appreciate your post; you provide additional links to investigate, and that's the good stuff that I like to wander through. I wish for some manner of measurable testing of this phenomenon..... I agree with OZ that the upper level winds are rarely or never static, so it doesn't make sense to me that crossed contrails/chemtrails over my head would result in a change here locally, and yet........... my observations make me sad in a way. Not only do I no longer have an excuse to swig down a couple of beers whilst in pursuit of a photo-op, I don't see anything lately that is photo-worthy in the way of sunsets, and that, my friend, is RARE for here. No color. No cloud striations, no reflections in tidal pools, just a faint blob (the Sun) that decends into a haze of goo.

I remain pissed off at whomever (if they exist) perpetuated this crime. Like you, I'm tending toward belief, but I NEED DATA, real information, measurements, math, things that are balanced, equational information.

I don't think I'm going to get the evidence I want; If it were so easy, these questions wouldn't matter.

Thanks again, OZ for this thread. Perhaps we'll all change our ideas, or not. Maybe the truth will be born here, or buried.

reply to post by Clearskies

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Yes it is normal. All that is happening is that the air traffic in the USA is extremely heavy, so naturally you will have planes that criss cross each others paths and planes that sit in holding patterns at high altitude, waiting for their time to descend. I posted a link in the original post that shows the density of air travel in one hour, its a phenomenal amount

I'm just a regular uneducated bloke in the Big Apple. I started noticing the differences in the sky and investigated it as best I could.
Are Chemtrails real? In my mind yes.
If anyone over 30 can remember gazing at the sky as a child, does it look the same now as it did then. In my eyes, no. The sky was much bluer than today. Look at some old tv shows or movies from the 60's and 70s with outdoor scenes and look at the sky. There are clouds up there that are "new" to me. There are clouds and things up there that just don't make sense. Common sense.

I've seen the white planes laying down the grids. I've seen those grids to strange things. I've seen strange clouds just appear and grow out in odd shapes like plasma or something. I've seen lines in the grid shift like a piece of the sky moved. JFK and LGA are not far from me. One's pattern goes over my house at different altitudes. Therefor I notice when there is a plane in the sky, out of place. Barring the stuff they leave behind, I have not been able to find a reasonable answer to why there are planes flying in the patterns that they do. Outside of regular routes, running grids.

From my eyes, something has changed up there. In the day, the sky is, for a lack of better words, washed out. Don't be fooled when at night you can see the stars. The sun is not hitting the haze, it's still there.

There are a lot of unexplained things going on up in the sky. It has been for a long minute now. My personal opinion is that anyone who takes the time out to look for them selves and use common sense will see something amiss. Those that don't are in on it.

My question is this. Let's assume chemtrails are real. What are they doing?

I have read many theories. Weather Manipulation, Biological Agents, Nanotechnology, Shields to keep physical things out, Filtering the sun, dimming the sun, chemical manipulation, warming the planet etc, etc.

I fear there are a few different projects going on. From the pictures and accounts I've seen, I gather there are different types of chemtrails. Types meaning in the way they are administered. Some appear abstract and others in grids. I believe the abstract is used for saturation and grids for testing and coverage. Saturation used for delivery systems for earth bound and atmospheric payloads. Grids for testing various systems and calibrated delivery to the atmosphere. What they are delivering and testing? thats enough from me for now.

Could it be reasonable to assume that some of this traffic density is being created by these chem planes?

reply to post by OzWeatherman

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hmmm... well you make a good argument, its difficult to find any credible evidence to suggest barium is being used or any other chemical for that matter other than aluminium, what do you make of the 2005 bill in the US congress in regards to weather control measures?

Weather modification

and also ill prolly need to look around for this didnt Kucinich introduce a bill that listed chemtrails as an exotic weapon? cant remember what the bill was about now something to do with the weaponisation of space or something to that effect..

not saying that these are irrefutable proof there are chemtrails, however they tend to make me believe there is more going on than natural occurances ...

Could it be reasonable to assume air traffic had increased exponentially over the last few decades

I think so, theres a link above on someone elses post

Problem is, I think it was reviewed twice and rejected twice, well I know at least one chemtrail bill was

And just in general, can anyone disprove the science side of things?

But we're not talking about weather modification, we're talking about chemtrails - which, supposedly, manifest themselves as high level persistent contrails, spreading on occasions into sheets of cirrostratus.

Cloud seeding is a wholly different issue and no-one could possibly claim it doesn't take place.

Meanwhile, we know for absolute fact that the phenomena that people claim to be evidence of chemtrails - aircraft producing persistent contrails which on occasions spread out to cover the sky - has been described and scientifically stuidied for many decade. See, for example, this research paper from 1970.

Since chemtrail believers consistently shift the goalposts around, perhaps the best approach would be for someone to tell us what they think chemtrails are, how they may be identified and what differentiates them from normal contrails and clouds. We'll then see if their assertion stands up to scrutiny.

And just saying 'I know what I see' is not good enough!



And you have evidence that this manifested itself in visible high level clouds? No, because it didn't. Such spraying per force is carried out at very low altitudes and is not readily visible from the ground.



Same reason he put his name to a bill banning extraterrestrial weapons? Are Martian death rays in use on a regular basis? Why else would he want to ban them? Why was it called the 'space preservation bill'? Chemtrail aren't in space? The bill was written by a group determined to prevent the US from attacking an aliens who might visit us. That's all. They just listed every conceivable, hypothetical, weapon they could think of. There is no implication in the act that such weapons actually exist.





Because there was a lot less air traffic then. And believe me, in 20 years it'll be far, far worse!



But even so, back in 1970 the extent to which aircraft were affecting cloud cover was of concern (see link above from 1970)



But grids would be normal routes wouldn't they? People don't just fly in one direction, and a great many of the aircraft you see will not be going to local airports. As for them being white aircraft, is it coincidence that commercial airliners are generally white? Or that no-one has ever since the huge (100s of aircraft) fleets of non commercial aircraft that must otherwise exist?



Yes. A lot more planes.



Yes, A lot more planes.

If you don't like it, don't fly

(I've not been in the air since 1981 btw)



Well, there's no evidence chemtrails are real. But all those contrails we see more and more and more of, because we're so obsessed with flying so much, are helping cause regional warming



It's also worth noting of course that many people are, until they notice them for the first time, unaware not only of the many different types of clouds that appear in our skies, but also the atmospheric phenomena - like sundogs and iridescence - that accompany them.

Check out these images

www.cloudappreciationsociety.org...

Maybe meteorolology should be compulsory at school?



[edit on 6-8-2008 by Essan]

Oz, I'm commenting so this bumps into my ATS faves list.

I got pretty darn well beaten up in the other thread of late, so I commend you for starting this one. I have to go back now, and read up...

Sorry, you have not convinced me that you have debunked the chemtrail theory. I know someone is spraying our atmosphere with something. Most likely weather manipulation. Another theory I have read about is it is protection from holes in the ozone layer.

I live near a big city there is a lot of air traffic. I see planes fly over my home all the time. On some days I wake up in the morning and there are chemtrails all over the place. While I am looking at the chemtrails other commercial planes are flying over head at all different altitudes and not creating trails. So explain that to me how are some planes making trails and other are not. I sometimes wake up early enough to see them spraying. I see unmarked planes usually all white but sometimes these planes are all red or orange. While these unmarked planes are spraying I see the regular commercial planes flying overhead and no trails are seen.
On days that I see the spraying the sky is clear blue early in the morning and by noon the chemtrails have expanded to create a hazy overcast.

I have been in the same area for my whole life and do not remember seeing this until recently. I can say I started noticing this around 2001 or so. Something is going on. My wife thinks I am nuts when I come in the house and tell her "they are spraying again".