"The Porn Myth"

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


would you guys drop the whole virginity thing, the only problem with having a relationship with a non-virgin is if the person didnt get over his/her past relations which is hard to do and if they got STD which is common. but marrying a virgin has disadvantages too like realizing that you dont really like your partner anymore and wish to end it but wont because you spent most of ur life as a virgin for this sham marriage.
here is something i read long ago that might interest you:

The case, which had previously gone unreported, involved an engineer in his 30s, named as Mr X, who married Ms Y, a student nurse in her 20s, in 2006. The wedding night party was still under way at the family’s home in Roubaix when the groom came down from the bedroom complaining that his bride was not a virgin. He could not display the blood-stained sheet that is traditionally exhibited as proof of the bride’s “purity”. Mr X went to court the following morning and was granted a annulment on the grounds that his bride had deceived him on “one of the essential elements” of the marriage. In disgrace with both families, she acknowledged that she had led her groom to believe that she was a virgin when she had already had sexual intercourse. She did not oppose the annulment...
...Elisabeth Badinter, a philosopher and pioneer of women’s legal rights, said that she felt shame for the French justice system. “The sexuality of women in France is a private and free matter,” she said. “The annulment will just serve to send young Muslim girls running to hospitals to have their hymens restored.” Timesonline

My only issues with porn is that I very rarely see real women in them. Real women have hair, dimples, and lots of imperfections. When I see a porn star I can't help but wonder " Does my man want me to look like that?"

Maybe I've just been lucky but I've never been able to really enjoy porn much because the women in it don't look nearly as good as the women that have been in my real life.

Originally posted by optimus primal
you know i see a point being made several times throughout this thread and being completely ignored by everyone except the men every single time. the whole "some women never have an orgasm in their entire life!" when the fact remains that in most of those cases it's because the women NEVER TELL THE MAN WHAT IT IS THAT TRULY GETS THEM GOING. the woman i dated before i met my wife was exactly like that, rarely had an orgasm. i had no idea what was wrong and it made me feel terrible as a man. she never told me what it was i was doing wrong or wasn't doing and that relationship fell to crap pretty quickly. my wife is much different and we're quite happy and she doesn't have the rare orgasm problem. we also frequently watch porn together, not by my suggestion by the way, and she has no problem with it.

maybe if you're a woman and you have that problem instead of blaming the porn on his not satisfying you, you should actually (gasp!) talk to him and tell him what you like and what you dont like.....strange...it's kind of like every other part of a relationship. weird.

i think a lot of the women who feel inadequate next to porn need to take a reality check. if porn queens is what all men wanted, well they'd all be married and the rest of you would be single for the rest of your lives...as that's not happening i guess it's not true eh?. as a few guys have stated, it can be a good thing and it can be a bad thing...it all depends on the situation. labeling it as the cause for unhealthy relationships and divorce is really pretty ignorant though.

first off, i have to say this...it will only get worse. how so? well if you guys have been following with all that new upcoming technology porn will soon become 3D on new advanced TVs or even worse... Holograms which have already been developed. imagine the possibilities. hologram porn isnt far fetched, soon we might find ourselves watching all our movies presented to us as holograms. so if u think a 2D image porn is bad now think again. of course i also have to add androids or whatever which i asked men about and they had no problem whatsoever for substituting a night with a real women for a hot android lookalike. careful ladies one day you might find your husbands cheating on you with a sexy android ooch! ---would you consider that cheating? no? yes? maybe!?

one more thing, maybe we should turn the table... and focus about the whole women not getting orgasm thing, someone told me once that the only way a women could really enjoy sex is if her partner 'tag teamed' lol. i cant picture that happening.


edit: heres a degenerate website (not porn!) that you might want to have a look at:
common female fantasies

and this Top 10 female fantasies -so you see we aint that different after all.



[edit on 7-8-2008 by DuneKnight]

[edit on 7-8-2008 by DuneKnight]


[edit on 7-8-2008 by DuneKnight]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

No. Sorry. The Harvard analogy doesnt make it more clear to me, however, I dont want to drag it on and torture everyone else. It seems to me essentially an argument from tradition.

For instance with the Harvard analogy, you never make it clear that the analogy to not being a virgin actually plays out in fact as qualifying you for a less successful marriage. You claim it does,

Anyway, I am not trying to be thick. I just think we differ on the subject. If only a virgin is worth loving or marrying in your opinion, that is absolutely your prerogative. I dont think it is objectively wrong, only that I dont share the sentiment.

...everybody else, skip over this post.

If you are not going to share the sentiment we need to at least agree on what it is we disagree about.

We can agree that my Harvard analogy is no less confusing.

The "not qualified for a successful marriage" thing. Its about the odds. Which college will give you the best odds? Harvard, The main U., community college, no college, etc...

You couldn't possibly have reduced my posts down to "only virgins are worth loving and marrying" but you did?

Now, for those of you that read this anyways, before you go flaming about the virginity issue. This thread was about Porn and the debate about its value or destructiveness in relationships. Some of us have looked to the root of the problem rather than just one of the symptoms (porn)

Where it begins? 1) Being loved and nurtured as a child 2) that helps form self respect, confidence, self worth, etc. 3) These characteristics then lead to not handing out your body to smooth talking boys, nor being suseptible to negative peer pressure. You learn to not need approval from others to give you worth.

But for the rest of us that, to obviously different extents (ie. the youdespiseme poster) we adjust, we settle, we enjoy our porn, our different partners, we survive our divorces....does anyone know of anyone else that has escaped the realities of living in this world? So there is no reason to judge anyone else and the path they have chosen or has been chosen for them, in some cases.

But just because there is no justification to judge, it doesn't mean that there isn't an ideal path....to give you better odds....to have successful relationships. Porn is not one of the better odds game. My only point over so much of this, is that virginity is a "better odds" proposition. For anyone to believe otherwise is like saying the "odds" for the high school drop out is as good as the Harvard grad. for a successful happy life.

Lastly and quickly.....what makes for a happy life? Choices! The more you have the better.

Porn is a symptom......not the problem.

reply to post by DuneKnight



No, Duneknight, that didn't interest me or surprise me.

It seems important to them and the bride knew the rules too. She should have told him. If it made a difference then so be it. We have to stop judging people for having a different moral compass than our own.

Obviously you also know that just because a hymen is not intact, it doesn't mean she has had sex. I can't say I understand their religion.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


It actually wasnt your virginity argument that made me think that for you, personally, virginity was a requirement for marriage and love. It was your relating how you would sleep with high powered professional women but would never give them your heart.

Originally posted by optimus primal
you know i see a point being made several times throughout this thread and being completely ignored by everyone except the men every single time. the whole "some women never have an orgasm in their entire life!" when the fact remains that in most of those cases it's because the women NEVER TELL THE MAN WHAT IT IS THAT TRULY GETS THEM GOING. the woman i dated before i met my wife was exactly like that, rarely had an orgasm. i had no idea what was wrong and it made me feel terrible as a man. she never told me what it was i was doing wrong or wasn't doing and that relationship fell to crap pretty quickly. my wife is much different and we're quite happy and she doesn't have the rare orgasm problem. we also frequently watch porn together, not by my suggestion by the way, and she has no problem with it.

maybe if you're a woman and you have that problem instead of blaming the porn on his not satisfying you, you should actually (gasp!) talk to him and tell him what you like and what you dont like.....strange...it's kind of like every other part of a relationship. weird.

Personally, I resent that.
You automatically assume that it is the fault of the woman somehow WITHOLDING the information about what she likes.
Nobody would do that.
If she doesn't know what she wants, then obviously she can't tell you. In which case you TRY things until you find what works.
I don't know any woman who would purposefully deprive herself of pleasure in a sexual relationship, unless she had some sort of harsh religious upbringing that made her think sex was wrong.

Did you ever think that maybe some men simply refuse to try?
Not all, but some, who think that the second their own needs are fulfilled, sex is done, and they go off and do something else, be it sleep, video games, watching tv, or anything else.
Don't say it doesn't happen, because it does.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


Ok. I think I finally have the jist of your argument.

You are not saying there is something magical in the virginity itself. Nor that bringing it as a commodity to be traded is the key.

If what you are saying is that;

a) it takes self respect and self control to maintain ones virginity. (Particularly in todays western culture.)

b) a good marriage is more likely between two individuals with self control and self respect.

c) virginity is not an assurance of self control and self respect, nor is lack of it necessarily an indication of the lack of those qualities.

however;

d) the presence of virginity in an individual within a culture where it is not enforced, (as in Islamic ones) gives one a pretty high probability of also finding self control and self respect in the individual who voluntarily has maintained that virginity.

If that is your argument, then yes, I would agree. Not because of the magic of virginity itself, but as it can be a marker of someone who chooses restraint and is not easily swayed by "peer pressure" or the need to jump through hoops to make someone love them.

Lol. I hope I finally got it.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander



hmmm, good point.

I didn't do a good job explaining what I meant there. The virginity topic had nothing to do with my statement. It was just commentary regarding "todays" professional career driven women. They wouldn't interest me for a long term relationship mostly because I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Objectively this really isn't fair I suppose but subjectively I just wouldn't have the energy to try and work my way up the priority list for that type of woman, especially when there are plenty of wonderful women out there to choose from.

Hopefully I drop dead before my wife does and I never have to join the game again.

....but back to Porn.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
...I think it is a big mistake to confuse tough talk with actual capability. It is definitely a mistake to confuse nice with weak.

And yet, sadly, 99% of american women make this exact mistake.

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
It was just commentary regarding "todays" professional career driven women. They wouldn't interest me for a long term relationship mostly because I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

*bold emphasis mine

Somewhat off topic but my understanding goes out to those career driven women. Although I am not one myself, I can understand why some women focus so much on their careers and, in some cases, I also believe it comes down to them not trusting men 'as far as they can be thrown.'

I have known and known of so many women who gave up their dreams, their income, their higher education, and their career to dedicate their entire existence to their spouse and children only to be left by their husband around middle age. They are then at the mercy of the court, their spouse, and their attorney's generosity regarding the settlement. This is a sore spot for me because my saint of a mother was one such woman who had this happen to her. She pressed it into my head from the cradle that books will take me farther than a man ever could and that I could trust and depend on myself more than a man because men have the potential to flake. Therefore, always have something to fall back on.

So when I hear men who become irritated or turned off by career women, I take it with a grain of salt and tend to side with the woman who very possibly might be too scared to depend on a man. Perhaps they are leery after the stereotype of the man who undergoes a middle age crisis and runs off with his secretary.

This isn't necessarily directed at you, RI. Just thought I would throw it in. I can certainly understand the plight of career women.

Originally posted by BiohazardsBack
...I don't know any woman who would purposefully deprive herself of pleasure in a sexual relationship, unless she had some sort of harsh religious upbringing that made her think sex was wrong.
...

That happens MUCH more frequently than you would imagine. Not the "harsh religious upbringing", but the "deprive herself of pleasure" part.

There are a great many women who, no matter what, will NOT open their mouths and say "I like this" or "Don't do that" in bed. Instead, they think that the man should automatically KNOW what they like in bed. Seen it a bunch.

The mistake that a woman makes when men describes these things generally follow along these lines of thinking: "Because *I* don't think/feel/act that way, then most women don't think/feel/act that way. And because most women don't think/feel/act that way, NO WOMAN thinks/feels/acts that way".

reply to post by sir_chancealot


I do know a few women who make that mistake.

I was horrified when a friend of mine stated that she felt she could not love a man who expressed emotion by crying. After a little probing she did admit that crying when someone died might be okay, but she felt that over a movie, or some frustration, or during an argument that that was an indication of weakness, of "unmanliness."

I dont happen to agree with her, after much debate we had to agree to disagree. I think anyone, male or female, who is comfortable enough with themselves to express their true feelings without reservation (within reason, not just going up to a stranger and yelling at them if you are pissed) is brave, not weak. Confident, not cowardly. I think it is far more difficult and noble to tell someone "You hurt me," than to say, "I hate you."

Men do have their own fair share of socially imposed crap to have to navigate. Women are just as capable of stereotyping and judging (unfairly) as men are. Which is why I tend to think the safest route is not to categorize too broadly, but to look to the individual and let them rise or fall on their own merits or lack thereof.

reply to post by AshleyD


A definite chink in my armor! A woman that is willing to give it all up for me would be worth supporting 1000% I would need nothing more than be convinced of that and I will follow her where ever her career takes her (us)

It really does boil down to trust.

....to my other friend, yes, there is nothing magical about virginity as there is nothing magical about the Harvard degree over the University of (State) degree. It is simply an advantage, or indicator, improvement of odds. It is just another consideration when looking to the character of a person. I think we have popped the cherry on this issue at last.


[edit on 7-8-2008 by Res Ipsa]

reply to post by Jadette


The people you're talking about most likely had a 'normal' upbringing. What about the millions of people who didn't. These kind of violent games and films are a reality to some extent and add as fuel to their already raging fire.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


yeah there is nothing magical about virginity unless you're harry potter. actually there is something magically about losing your virginity ironically its probably at the same time regrettable anyway.

Originally posted by BiohazardsBack
Personally, I resent that.
You automatically assume that it is the fault of the woman somehow WITHOLDING the information about what she likes.
Nobody would do that.
If she doesn't know what she wants, then obviously she can't tell you. In which case you TRY things until you find what works.
I don't know any woman who would purposefully deprive herself of pleasure in a sexual relationship, unless she had some sort of harsh religious upbringing that made her think sex was wrong.

Did you ever think that maybe some men simply refuse to try?
Not all, but some, who think that the second their own needs are fulfilled, sex is done, and they go off and do something else, be it sleep, video games, watching tv, or anything else.
Don't say it doesn't happen, because it does.

Well, I assume that women do know what feels good when done to them, and what feels BAD... right? Also, do women have a sense of touch at all? Or a sexual side? Or fantasies even?

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
...stated that she felt she could not love a man who expressed emotion by crying. After a little probing she did admit that crying when someone died might be okay, but she felt that over a movie, or some frustration, or during an argument that that was an indication of weakness, of "unmanliness."
...

I'm going to go WAY out on a limb here and predict that your friend constantly gets into relationships where the men are jerks, mistreat her, and cheat on her. (btw, that was sarcasm with the "way out on a limb" part)

Here's an interesting thing for you. Audie Murphy, the most decorated hero of WWII, was 5'5" tall. Want to bet that if here were around today, at the height of his youth, most women would dismiss him as being "not manly enough".

Young men have learned today that it is the APPEARANCE of certain traits that will get you in a woman's pants, not actually POSSESSING those traits. There is an entire industry devoted on making it easier for a guy to get in a woman's pants. A&E even had a show on about it.

How does this relate to the topic at hand? Men are choosing porno over real women, BECAUSE THE REAL WOMEN HAVE BECOME MORE TROUBLE THAN THEY ARE WORTH. Men are learning "tricks" to get in a woman's pants, BECAUSE THEY ARE AUTOMATICALLY EXCLUDED, A PRIORI, FROM EVEN BEING IN THE "CONTEST". At my count, you have at least 4 guys on this thread alone saying this (excluding me), yet all the women are ignoring it.

The "porno problem" isn't going away. Because, as most of the men are pointing out, it's merely the symptom of the underlying problem. There's an old, old saying: "If you want to keep a man happy, keep his (blank) empty, and his stomach full." Women today are failing on both counts. That's why the rise in porno.

Originally posted by BiohazardsBack
...Did you ever think that maybe some men simply refuse to try?
Not all, but some, who think that the second their own needs are fulfilled, sex is done, and they go off and do something else, be it sleep, video games, watching tv, or anything else.
Don't say it doesn't happen, because it does.

Well, take a good, hard look back into your memory, and see if you can find the one OTHER thing all those guys had in common. I'll wait for you.

...
...
...
...
...

Have you found it yet? Once you guess it, or fail to guess it more probably, I'll tell you why those guys had absolutely NO NEED to even TRY to please you. You won't be happy with the answer, and won't even believe me, but I'll throw it out to you anyway.

Originally posted by BiohazardsBack

Originally posted by optimus primal
you know i see a point being made several times throughout this thread and being completely ignored by everyone except the men every single time. the whole "some women never have an orgasm in their entire life!" when the fact remains that in most of those cases it's because the women NEVER TELL THE MAN WHAT IT IS THAT TRULY GETS THEM GOING. the woman i dated before i met my wife was exactly like that, rarely had an orgasm. i had no idea what was wrong and it made me feel terrible as a man. she never told me what it was i was doing wrong or wasn't doing and that relationship fell to crap pretty quickly. my wife is much different and we're quite happy and she doesn't have the rare orgasm problem. we also frequently watch porn together, not by my suggestion by the way, and she has no problem with it.

maybe if you're a woman and you have that problem instead of blaming the porn on his not satisfying you, you should actually (gasp!) talk to him and tell him what you like and what you dont like.....strange...it's kind of like every other part of a relationship. weird.

Personally, I resent that.
You automatically assume that it is the fault of the woman somehow WITHOLDING the information about what she likes.
Nobody would do that.
If she doesn't know what she wants, then obviously she can't tell you. In which case you TRY things until you find what works.
I don't know any woman who would purposefully deprive herself of pleasure in a sexual relationship, unless she had some sort of harsh religious upbringing that made her think sex was wrong.

Did you ever think that maybe some men simply refuse to try?
Not all, but some, who think that the second their own needs are fulfilled, sex is done, and they go off and do something else, be it sleep, video games, watching tv, or anything else.
Don't say it doesn't happen, because it does.

i never said it was their fault, i did however say that many of the women who have a problem reaching orgasm, dont communicate properly to their partners. whether the problem is they can't, dont want to, or feel embarrased isn't the issue really...everyone in a successful relationship knows communication is the way to success. also i never said that it wasn't sometimes the fault of the men, i'm pretty sure everyone knows that there are some men out there who are total selfish bastards.

my post you quoted was just that, about communication, and how a lot more of it is needed. there's no need to feel like i'm trying to persecute women who haven't had an orgasm.....