"The Porn Myth"

There's porn all over the net that caters to guys who like old and saggy or more natural women too. Maybe what we need is more of that kind of porn instead of less porn on the whole.

Originally posted by Captain Obvious
They call them hookers for a reason my good man. You do know what a hook is don't you? The sharp thing at the end of the fishing line that fish bite because they believe they're getting something for little effort. It's funny because you believe you're using them

I don't feel used. I feel like they're pretty much the only honest women left in the world. You agree on a price and you exchange your cash for their services. It's the beauty of the free market.

I'd rather spend the money on some guaranteed instant gratification from a skilled professional, then part ways as soon as the transaction is completed than have to spend it taking some girl (who I don't even want to spend five minutes with) out or impress some bar skanks (at least enough to get them drunk enough) when the sex isn't guaranteed, it will probably be awful and I stand a decent chance of getting accused of date rape.

As a guy who can admit to watching the occasional internet porn, I do say that it does desensitize, but not completely overhaul. For example, the same way video games don't make serial killers, they just desensitize.

The argument could be made as a transgression, or reversion to old ways. The equivalent of watching Law and Order or CSI today would be the equivalent in Roman times of going to the arena to watch a man get eaten by a lion, or watch gladiators shred off arms and noses. What's the difference?

I believe sex and violence desensitize to an extent, instilling the fallacy that it's a normal, day-to-day thing.

Originally posted by Sonya610


And if he was so "heartless" he would not be so damn angry. lol. Heartless means lack of emotion, hatred is not heartless. Hatred and resentment stems from disappointment or abuse.

If you were almost murdered or raped and me and everythingyoudespise saw it. I would try to help you, he would do nothing, because it will not benefit him = selfish, heartless. His real thoughts.

I really haven't seen him angry, but if this is what he really feels, then your right.

Abused? That would be my guess.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_If you were almost murdered or raped and me and everythingyoudespise saw it. I would try to help you, he would do nothing, because it will not benefit him = selfish, heartless. His real thoughts.

Okay this is getting a bit weird. Like a three way but with one of the participants gagged and handcuffed. lol.

Truth is, everythingyoudespise is a sociopath. In the situation you described they would either have an interest or not. If they had an interest they would probably be quite good at taking care of business and unless they have other issues (like they were 114 lbs) they would come out on top.

You my dear, would jump in, and be fired up, but would you truly be cold blooded enough to settle things? Or would you sacrifice yourself in the process?

[edit on 6-8-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by _Phoenix_If you were almost murdered or raped and me and everythingyoudespise saw it. I would try to help you, he would do nothing, because it will not benefit him = selfish, heartless. His real thoughts.

Okay this is getting a bit weird. Like a three way but with one of the participants gagged and handcuffed. lol.

Ok then your right, but he can talk anytime.

Anyway some clarity.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

So when someone does something to you or your family etc, like raping and killing you all, even the kids, we should all sit back and watch the show?

Originally posted by EverythingYouDespise
Sure. If they don't take the necessary precautions to avoid being taken advantage of they deserve it. You don't have a right to safety.

[edit on 6-8-2008 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by Sonya610


Truth is, everythingyoudespise is a sociopath. In the situation you described they would either have an interest or not. If they had an interest they would probably be quite good at taking care of business and unless they have other issues (like they were 114 lbs) they would come out on top.

You my dear, would jump in, and be fired up, but would you truly be cold blooded enough to settle things? Or would you sacrifice yourself in the process?

[edit on 6-8-2008 by Sonya610]

You see I knew this is what you were getting at from the start, that's what the U2U really ment, somehow related to all this badboy image.

The answer is yes I would be man enough to settle things.


[edit on 6-8-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by EverythingYouDespise


you my friend, a sadistic bitter man who probably had a harsh upbringing, because you seem not to grasp fundamental values that we all cherish naturally. your love for porn and hookers shows me that you are depressed and extremely hedonistic, just enough to corrupt a person. may i ask this, do these things that you like so much have meaning for you, do they mean anything at all? because if they do then clearly you are just filling a void by chasing these so called pleasures. if life has no meaning for you then you must admit that hookers and porn and whatever have no meaning other than a mundane exercise, a diversion, that you partake in to escape reality.

Originally posted by DuneKnight
reply to post by Quazga

 

well a spiritual connection is much more superior to casual sex. and please no more justifying our stupid human tendencies through evolution. evolution tells me this so i must do it?!!! thats absurd, u do know that we as humans already defied nature by making our own laws. we shouldnt listen to evolution in the first place. sheesh its as though u guys think of evolution as ur bible. evolution is flawed because it doesnt carry the best interest of an individual in mind while our system cares for us individually. i rather lead my own evolution thank you very much, one that includes high aspirations to be more than a silly creature.

I never once mentioned evolution. I mentioned genes and their phenotypical expressions toward the need to procreate.

Could you please point out where I ever even mentioned evolution?

I didn't think so.

I rest my case. We have sex because our genes want to procreate. We seek spirituality because we need meaning. Why? because ashes to ashes, dust to dust.



[edit on 6-8-2008 by Quazga]

[edit on 6-8-2008 by Quazga]

Some thoughts from a female...

First of all, I tend to separate the issue of "porn" and "girly pix". Porn is mostly just crotch shots anyway and the people really aren't that good looking. Porn does not bother me too much.

Now "girly pix" or naked women pix of these certain sorts of "sexy" models - OK this bothers me. If a man I was involved with was looking at these types of pictures. Sure a glance once in a while is no big deal, but if he was really fixated on these women - yes it would bother me and make me feel inferior.

I look OK and exercise etc. But there is NO WAY I can compete with a computer corrected, 'Photo Shopped' image. No one can! Not even the model herself looks as the picture of her does!

One last thought regarding image - I think what's 'currently popular' has alot to do with it. I was a teen in the 80's and back then a female with a large butt was laughed at and mocked. The ideal was a very small "boyish" butt. These days - seems the Big Bum is in fashion and the bigger the better. Current fashion dictates things also.

A couple other things here have been brought up which disturb me. The bashing of Feminists. I consider myself a Feminist as I believe in EQUAL OPPORTUNITY in the job market. I was abandoned by my father and I have a right to be able to support myself. This does not make me some raging shrew just because I want to have an education and a job! Additionally, it is of benefit to men because with women such as me the man is not burdened with all the income generation. I think that is very unfair to men. And to whomever brought up Camille Paglia - no one listens to her because she's widely regarded by all sides of the fence as a stark raving idiot and publicity hound.

I think the concept of Feminism has been distorted by the media. Probably by men who fear women and seek to control them.

The other thing that bothers me here is the use of the term "hardwired" for men describing their behavior. Whenever I see this term used I cringe. Because what it tells me is - that the person is simply spouting MSM pop psychology.

And in this vein it also bothers me when men talk about "the caveman days." 'First of all, what's "known" of that is simple conjecture and theories. None of us were there and we really have no way of knowing exactly how those people lived. For all we know, the life of Fred Flintstone was correct. Furthermore, humans have evolved extremely rapidly. We have constantly changed. It disturbs me greatly when people claim they are "hardwired" from the "caveman days" when a) we don't know what those days were like and b) we have changed and advanced so much since then. And I don't just mean "society". Our bodies and brains are vastly different from those earliest creatures.

I find the above especially irritating because its usually men doing it - and - usually when it upholds some behavior that they like and wish to make an excuse for. Funny how when an odious chore is brought up - all of a sudden - the "hardwired caveman" disappears.

And don't forget - marriage is an invention of men, not women. Its to ensure that men's offspring are theirs. Don't blame women for the concept of "monogamy", that's all men's doing, research it (there is actual recorded history to back this up also, not simple conjecture.) Of course men mainly want their female monogamous - themselves, perhaps not. Not usually. This may be an issue in (some) females dislike of porn. It may come off as - the man gets to "cheat" but the female does not.

In my experience, most of my past men got VERY upset if I spoke to other men or even remarked on appearances. Men do get quite upset over their women ogling men. So they should understand then when women get upset over them drooling over "girly mags" and/or worshipping porn stars.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


No. Sorry. The Harvard analogy doesnt make it more clear to me, however, I dont want to drag it on and torture everyone else. It seems to me essentially an argument from tradition.

For instance with the Harvard analogy, you never make it clear that the analogy to not being a virgin actually plays out in fact as qualifying you for a less successful marriage. You claim it does, but you dont actually substantiate that claim. I would like to be able to see the logic, because in order to just accept a claim like that I would like to see the other variables at play, not just take at face value the claim. Do we have any real evidence that young men and women today actually DO reject non-virgins for marriage? Or that lack of virginity really does create instability in the marriage?

I think it is just that our base line assumptions are too different. If I could agree that

a)marriage=a lucrative and prestigious career,

and I was shown some evidence that

b) being a virgin really did factually increase the odds of a lucrative and prestigious marriage,

and,

c) financial stability or prestige, rather than personal satisfaction, is the purpose or motive for marriage.

I would agree with you. I just dont see those claims as true.

This just seems to me to be flawed on several levels. First, one would have to show why marriage is a goal at all. Why one might like a high paying job is pretty self evident, (though as I said some are willing to sacrifice high pay for personal satisfaction.) Having a means of supporting oneself is logical, practical, and most of us can agree that it is more or less a necessity. Why marriage correlates to that is less clear. Marriage seems to me to NOT be a true necessity, but rather a want, or a desire, and so a luxury item in a sense.

There was a time, (before women were allowed to have careers) that making a good, stable financial arrangement in the form of a marriage WAS essential to a female. (much like a career) And it still seems to matter quite a bit to some men or women, if they are say, in politics and selling an image of the "family person." I can see how in those circumstances making sure you were a Harvard grad (virgin) probably upped the price you could claim when selling yourself into that arrangement. Most people dont think like that anymore. The actual reason many people DO marry is not of necessity, but in hopes of finding some personal satisfaction. (At least in western countries)

Maybe I am just a freak, but it has never occurred to me to feel cheated that I have never married or dated a virgin. In fact, it has never occurred to me to ask. I really dont care that the person I am with has loved someone else physically or emotionally in the past. I only care that they love me, now. I also havent run into anyone who seems overly concerned about the state of my virginity. They seem more concerned that I love them, now.

I do see that if you are utterly indiscriminate, and have some belief that sex=love and eventually marriage, and just give your self to any old person willing to have sex with you in the hopes that that will lead to a marriage, that perhaps not having sex at all until you marry may would certainly increase your odds of getting the sex=marriage expectation fulfilled. However if you are reasonably discriminant, and are paying attention to the person you are considering sleeping with, you generally could see the signs of someone who was just looking for sex=sex, and avoid having sex with them if you were looking for a different arrangement. This doesnt require no sex at all until you marry, but rather making sure both people are on the same page in terms of what the expectation of the parties to the contract are. It does tend to require that you delay sex until you can be sure you are in agreement on this matter, but that is a different matter than waiting for a ring before any sex at all.

Anyway, I am not trying to be thick. I just think we differ on the subject. If only a virgin is worth loving or marrying in your opinion, that is absolutely your prerogative. I dont think it is objectively wrong, only that I dont share the sentiment.

reply to post by kosmicjack


Here's another Man's point of view to this subject and the damage that can occur when delving too deep into porn.

I can see that porn itself isn't all that bad because it can be used to educate people on the specifics of certain kinds of love making, i.e. instructional videos and the like can be very helpful to the young and uneducated males in this world that need to know the How's and Why's of certain things sexually, but to me, too much porn has saturated our airwaves and has become a turn off to me because like many many other men, I prefer the real thing and learning about my partner, because each woman has different places and different things and definitely different wants and needs sexually, I know this because I have had many partners but all safely and all with the concerns that both partners get what they want, now true, that doesn't always happen, but I just want to say that I've always done my best to stay open minded and personally explore what makes a certain woman happy.

I can say that porn does become a turn off because many of those situations just aren't real and they can give a person (man or woman) certain expectations from their partners that may not be possible in the real world and that and many other things can end up being a let down to either partner if they think that what they see in porn can always happen perfectly and I'm sorry, but that just isn't real life. People have feelings and their own expectations when it comes to themselves and from partners that they truly know. I just think that porn can also take away from the true love and ecstacy that can happen between two consensual partners..

I believe that if used with caution and with good intentions, porn can be used to enhance things both erotically and sexually between two lovers if used sparingly and with plenty of imagination, but mainly the best thing I've found is to just listen to what your partner wants and needs, and then give it to them, slowly and lovingly if that is the case, and just try to stay connected to your partner as best you can, and find joy and happiness in what you do share together instead of having tons of images in your head through watching porn and possibly being let down or letting your partner down by having unrealistic expectations just because you saw someone else do it. That's just my opinion, but I've found that truly listening to your partner works best when discovering new pleasures together..
Have a great love session no matter what, and just have fun with it.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
The answer is yes I would be man enough to settle things.

I dont know you personally, but I do know several nice guys who are more than able to take care of business. So, I wouldnt doubt it, and honestly, it is kind of a weird assumption for someone to make that your niceness necessarily means that you cant throw down.

My foster father was a quiet spoken man, but he saw someone hit a woman in front of him once. He asked nicely for the guy to get his crap and go, and the guy told him to shove it and called him a name. My dad told him again that he needed to get his crap and go, the guy stood up and got in his face and sort told him to make him, and so my dad just laid him out.

One of the toughest guys I ever met, that you definitely did NOT want to ever, ever hit you, was also the nicest most easy going guy I ever met. I saw him almost kill a guy that mistook nice for weak.

I grew up in a place where physical fights were pretty common in the culture. My observation has been that the more you hear from the person about what a tough guy they are, the less likely it is to bear out when the fight begins. Kind of like the difference between a yappy little chihuahua and a very quiet pitbull. They will both bite you, but the yappy one is actually hoping that they can scare you off and you will just walk away. The quiet one doesnt give a darn what you do, you can bring it on, or you can walk away, either way, they are going to win.

I think it is a big mistake to confuse tough talk with actual capability. It is definitely a mistake to confuse nice with weak.

An interesting topic that touches on many area's of modern culture.

I was reading an interesting article a while ago that pointed out that, what women used to look for and need has changed so much in the last 100 years. A good husband used to be a good provider for the family unit, that was the bottom line.

Now that women can in many cases be the Alpha earner they don't need or want that. What they need is intense emotional support to compensate.
For many men it's just too much work, it's draining, and they aren't adapting fast enough to a changing society that relagates them into the beta role.

And this is a fact, no couple can ever be truly happy if the man is the beta in the relationship. Oh he can say he is happy but deep within the core of his soul he never will be.

One person said, saying "Yes dear" and giving into his wife's demands is better than being kept up until 4 in the morning all the time with a crying whinning wife. How sad.

Is it any wonder that some men just shut down and turn to Porn, not that it's right, I am just saying.

In my experience men are way more emotional than most people know, and when the sex isn't meeting their expectations or the wife has cut the husband off, they also turn to porn. It's an escape mechanism for both an emotionally and sexually unhappy situation.

And there is a difference between the type of man that is a cheating greedy pig, and one that is faithfully loyal to his wife but has a strong sex drive yet he will never cheat on his wife. So he uses porn, but not because he really wants to.

One wife had an interesting answer to porn, she said my job is to make sure my hubby never needs porn. I think she gets it.

reply to post by EverythingYouDespise


To be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure how to handle you or your posts. At first I assumed you were a troll so I didn't take you very seriously but since you have been so persistent with your unorthodox opinions, I am now starting to believe you truly believe the things you say and agree with the above poster who pegged you as a sociopath.

In either case, we could now get into the discussion of what brings about these early deaths for single men and married women and review evidence which shows how stress can lead to cancer or other diseases in order to argue your view but I can't get over the little voice in my head that keeps telling me, 'This battle isn't worth it, Ash. Leave him be.'



Edited to add: As I told another member here a few weeks ago, one thing I cannot accuse you of doing is selecting a misleading screen name. Your opinions regarding women in this thread live up to the hype your screen name promises.

[edit on 8/7/2008 by AshleyD]

you know i see a point being made several times throughout this thread and being completely ignored by everyone except the men every single time. the whole "some women never have an orgasm in their entire life!" when the fact remains that in most of those cases it's because the women NEVER TELL THE MAN WHAT IT IS THAT TRULY GETS THEM GOING. the woman i dated before i met my wife was exactly like that, rarely had an orgasm. i had no idea what was wrong and it made me feel terrible as a man. she never told me what it was i was doing wrong or wasn't doing and that relationship fell to crap pretty quickly. my wife is much different and we're quite happy and she doesn't have the rare orgasm problem. we also frequently watch porn together, not by my suggestion by the way, and she has no problem with it.

maybe if you're a woman and you have that problem instead of blaming the porn on his not satisfying you, you should actually (gasp!) talk to him and tell him what you like and what you dont like.....strange...it's kind of like every other part of a relationship. weird.

i think a lot of the women who feel inadequate next to porn need to take a reality check. if porn queens is what all men wanted, well they'd all be married and the rest of you would be single for the rest of your lives...as that's not happening i guess it's not true eh?. as a few guys have stated, it can be a good thing and it can be a bad thing...it all depends on the situation. labeling it as the cause for unhealthy relationships and divorce is really pretty ignorant though.

Porn is supposed to be fantasy. The purpose is to provide your sexual fantasy and have you be aroused.

Since men can detach themselves from intimacy when looking at women that are beautiful but who they don't know personally, women think that by looking like the porno women they can become more intimate.

It's not true that women do it for themselves.
It's not true that skinny men work out for themselves.

The reason I know this is because movies, tv, magazines influence your thoughts and have proven effects on the thinking of the people who watch it. Lots of pressure is put on women to look just like the beautiful people when they don't even realise that those are fake images. Porno women can have stuff done to them to look beautiful in the same way you can have newsreaders put make up on their faces to look shiny and stuff.

Women stop bullsh!ting yourselves. Hollywood, corporations, PR companies, the women's magazines have slowly generation by generation conditioned you to think you are doing it for yourself but in fact it is to sell a certain product to you by promising your life will be better if you just spend the money on this wonderful product/service to make you confident. But it's not confidence in yourself, it's in the product to keep you buying it.

Just accept yourself for who you are and stop confusing real love/intimacy with your partner for being sexually aroused.

Sexual arousal is a chemical thing. Different people find different things beautiful.

Intimacy with your mate is more deep than that.

You just got to understand that when you are young, you are more conscious of your image, but you are also more shallow and 'common' and easily fooled. There isn't much about you that stands out since all the young women follow the westernised ideal of what beauty is due to their control over you. This is why men get angry at the "supermodel idea" of beauty where all the women are skinny: this is just one version of beauty and it's mainly effeminate gay men and arty people who want you to look like that not the real men who aren't attracted to the stuck up types who act spoilt and who don't have the down-to-earth personality and sense of self. Well not enough for us to relate to. When we talk about a hot actress we are only thinking from our dicks. This is the chemicals/hormones speaking. That doesn't mean we would actually like them if we met them and had a serious relationship. For all we know they have issues, are psycho, act jealous, expect us to bow to them, are control freaks etc all the things that you have to expect from normal people who are not perfect.

Men have their own version of this mind manipulation by corporations in the form of 'metrosexual' where they stealthily want to sell us cosmetics to make a profit by trying to make the fad popular of men acting effeminate. In a way I can see how some girls (young immature ones mainly) don't believe they are being manipulated but they are not life experienced enough to realise how the industry works. They need to remember that different people see different things as beautiful and that if you all go the 'fake' look, then men will just treat you like a fake barbie doll. A sex toy to be played with.

Don't beat yourself up. Please don't all fall for it. Work on your brains, (so you know what is real and fake in this world) and then unique talents, and then beauty last. Fat chics with genetic problems: just act normally and accept that you are not the only ones in the world sufferring. I mean think about the skinny nerdy male kid who wish they had muscles? Everyone has their weaknesses. Faking beauty to try to please the corporations selling you images which they want you to be modeled into, makes you destroy the real you, which is a unique person.

For those who want to know more read this book:
www.amazon.com...



[edit on 7-8-2008 by Snake Plisskin]

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Snake Plisskin]

Remember that the idea of enhancing your looks is very american. In that in the west you guys hate the idea of eating right, exersizing and worrying about nuitrition. Instead you want to take the "convenient" route of cosmetic surgery, liposuction, enhancing of chest, buying skin lotions that don't do anything and have no scientific basis for actually working etc

Like you'd rather spend money to get a quick short term result. Instead of just looking for the natural way of doing something.

Too fat? Ride a bicycle.
Too skinny? eat more, play sports.

Don't like your face because you friends think your ugly? Find new friends. Hang out with uglier people than you who think you're beautiful.

Just don't buy the myth that you are loved more after you pay money to change something. It's just an industry to make lots of money from insecure people who too shallow to see the subtle manipulation being pushed onto them to sell them a product to 'improve' themselves which doesn't really have a lasting effect. Because even good looking people feel insecure sometimes when put up with heavy competition from other beatitful people.

The stuff you see in porn isn't even real sex. (unless we are talking amatuer porn) They are people paid to act like they are having sex and you can often tell because they are not good at the acting like they enjoy it. They create it to fullfill the fantasy for the viewer. And rememer what I said about men: we can seperate sex from intimacy. We don't have to like the woman in the movie. It's just chemicals.


[edit on 7-8-2008 by Snake Plisskin]

Originally posted by kosmicjack
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

We hear ya, but the reality is most women who are opting for surgery are doing it to compete with porn images.

That is not the reality, that is your OPINION. I disagree. My opinion is that women get breast implants because, a) they have self-esteem issues, b) it will supposedly help with their careers (models, strippers, actresses, 16-y.o. singers, etc).

Originally posted by AshleyD
I am now starting to believe you truly believe the things you say and agree with the above poster who pegged you as a sociopath.

Oh yeah he believes the things he says. Sociopaths are not that rare, but most are not as honest about what they think.

There are a lot of guys on ATS that are angrier and constantly ragging on women. I find them to be far more annoying; the ones that go on about how all women cheat, nag, immasculate men, and somehow during their resentment filled angry rants they manage to say something like "women don't appreciate nice guys like me" etc...

On a sidenote lots of people prefer to attack him, he doesn't mind that at all. Now analyze him or even defend him, I suspect that is far more annoying, notice the silence? LOL.