Baghdad, Five Years On: Desperate Life And Failed Surge

Originally posted by TheOracle
I don't think any of us is able to understand the suffering of the iraqi we caused, certainly not the Bush apologists.
I pity anybody's soul who thinks that 1 million dead, 4 millions displaced, and the chaos we brought to their lives is a OK price to pay. The war is one of the biggest mistake of all of mankind's history. Unprovoked wars are wrong, no matter how you look at it. People do not want foreigners to meddle in their affairs.
Our children will look back at us not understanding how cruel and greedy we have been.

Neither Iraq or U.S. troops want your pitty. Just for you to open your mind to reality. There is no such thing as a "Bush Apologist" and you anti-war people need to debate with facts or grow up. Wars are just a necessary evil mankind will always practice at some level and people need to be realistic about that. WE did not cause any of this. We finished what was an ongoing conflict since the first T-72 crossed the Kuwaiti dessert in 1990. Should have finished this then. Too bad we didn't because we could have avoided the decades long failed diplomatic effort and concluded this in the late 1990s rather than now.

Oh, and those of you lamenting over "1 million" dead and so forth, that's nothing compared to past wars like Viet Nam and WW II. Besides, we have not killed 1 million Iraqis and anyone who believes that is delusional. As one of the "killers" I have a very good idea how many Iraqis have died and it's nowhere near 1 million.

I am lmao at this thread

seriously clueless I tell ya CLUELESS

Originally posted by SFwife
I am lmao at this thread

seriously

clueless I tell ya CLUELESS

Why because I don't "FEEL" the way you do? I'm afraid some of us are a little more objective in our assessments and have matured beyond a grade school understanding of human interaction on Planet Earth. I really don't mean that as an insult but your post speak for itself.

Look, I realize America is not perfect. I realize that even in America, leaders make decisions they shouldn't sometime. However, and this cannot be denied, the world has benefited greatly from American military contributions far more than it has suffered. Also, there are times when wars may have to be fought even if they aren't exactly popular.

If you want to object to something. Articulate it. Otherwise stand aside while others go out and create the world we want to live in with our deeds. Saddam and Iraq were enemies of the USA for over a decade. It was a threat that had to be ans was dealt with. Did things go exactly as planned? NO. Were there embarrassing mistakes? YES. Is any of this unique to OIF? NO. All wars fought by America have their own instances of this and all wars fought by America had people just like you who disagreed. Nothing is new about this. Bottom line is, we are in this GWOT and must win it.

If you disagree or think it's not the right course of action for America. Great! Scream it loud and proud. Get enough people to do that and then elect a government that supports those positions. However, if your arguments are as poor as they are here. Then your dissent is going to be confined to Conspiracy Websites. Meanwhile, people like me will move forward dragging you in tow as we make the world a better place to live in. In some cases with our lives. So, again, work a little harder to explain your position and maybe you wont be a minority at the polls where such things really matter.

Parting thought. If I did something one time, say oppose war for instance. And it didn't work. Maybe there is a conspiracy or some other issue. If I did it everytime America went to war, yet it never worked. Maybe there is something wrong with my understanding of how the world works. Think about that.

One more thing. I bet many of you are counting on Obama changing things. I'm going to fall to the floor laughing on my way to the next deployment! In case some of you haven't notice due to ignorance or not enough life experience. The United States foreign policy doesn't really change much when it comes to military matters. Sure one president my oppose some weapon system or make slight changes to the budget. Overall however, things remain the same with regard to when, why and how we go to war. Just wait and see. I served under Dems and GOP Admins and there is no real difference.

That's because presidents take the advice of military chiefs who aren't basing decisions and recommendations on political party ideology but rather threat analysis. You will see soon enough. McCain or Obama will seem very much like "Bush" in a lot of ways with regard to the war.

If you know what the USA national security imperatives are, it's not hard to figure out when we will or wont fight.

You'll see...

No I happen to agree with you .
My husband is SF so I know how things are in Iraq
I also tried to U2U you but don't have enough post yet

[edit on 5-8-2008 by SFwife]

Originally posted by Voxel

Originally posted by Alxandro
You will never win at anything with such a pessimistic attitude.

BTW, do you spell it Kumbaya or Cumbaya?

You guys are all over the map when you can't think of any content. First, I am labeled a pessimist and then you mention a folk song that expresses irrational optimism. Care to explain yourself or should I just chalk it up to being "challenged"?

Jon

Let mee splain it tooyoo.

Kumbaya is the song the terrorists sympathysers would very much love to sing while holding hands with those they sympathize with, you know, the very people that want to kill you and me if we don't convert.

Yeah, I know the comeback will be there are no terrorists, only those in government, but those you appease have been around for a lot longer than 8 years.

reply to post by SFwife


1000 apologies! Go to the bottom of my post and click -DA...

reply to post by Alxandro

Yeah, I know the comeback will be there are no terrorists, only those in government, but those you appease have been around for a lot longer than 8 years.

I dunno Mr A/a. I live in Jacksonville FL and we have had 49 homicides this year through July 31. 12 have been killed by police bullets. you know something? I don't know if the statisticians include those killed by police in the total because the definition of a homicide is an "unlawful" killing of a human being. What do you think?

I'd like to see an outside commission to look into the reasons the police thought they had to kill 12 people in the first 7 months of the year. Or is that asking too much? One dead man every 2 weeks on average. That's the same rate Bush43 had'em executed in Texas when he was governor. Bush43 even had three double-headers and tried for one triple header but it washed out, into a double header. His total? 154 deader than heck in barely 6 years! A world's record! Bush43 is no stranger to OTHER people's dying!

[edit on 8/5/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by DarthAmerica

That's because presidents take the advice of military chiefs who aren't basing decisions and recommendations on political party ideology but rather threat analysis. You will see soon enough. McCain or Obama will seem very much like "Bush" in a lot of ways with regard to the war. If you know what the USA national security imperatives are, it's not hard to figure out when we will or wont fight.

We know if Obama wins the Dems will clean house in all the appointive positions in all the cabinet departments including DoD. McCain will too, but maybe not so fast.

I am hoping for the uniformed services upper levels to also get a house cleaning. America has always been overloaded with stars in the top grades - O7 - O10 - compared to other nations. Well, since War 2 anyway. Many of them go into “retirement” as soon as they get a second star but linger on another few years. Sort of like Federal judges who go on Senior status.

We certainly want gone all those sycophants put into important posts by Herr Oberfuhrer Rumsfeld.

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by DarthAmerica

 

That's because presidents take the advice of military chiefs who aren't basing decisions and recommendations on political party ideology but rather threat analysis. You will see soon enough. McCain or Obama will seem very much like "Bush" in a lot of ways with regard to the war. If you know what the USA national security imperatives are, it's not hard to figure out when we will or wont fight.

We know if Obama wins the Dems will clean house in all the appointive positions in all the cabinet departments including DoD. McCain will too, but maybe not so fast.

I am hoping for the uniformed services upper levels to also get a house cleaning. America has always been overloaded with stars in the top grades - O7 - O10 - compared to other nations. Well, since War 2 anyway. Many of them go into “retirement” as soon as they get a second star but linger on another few years. Sort of like Federal judges who go on Senior status.

We certainly want gone all those sycophants put into important posts by Herr Oberfuhrer Rumsfeld.

Who did Rumsfeld put into post ?
Military promotions do NOT work that way .

reply to post by SFwife

Who did Rumsfeld put into post? Military promotions do NOT work that way.

You gotta be kiddin’ SFW. Rank and jobs are not doled out by lottery.

How long was Rummy SecDef? Nearly 6 years. Rummy was like Bush43, he brooked no dissent. “You’re for me or you’re against me!” Ir you're against me, RETIRE.

I assume every person in any position above O6 is a Rummy appointment. Robert Gates has been in charge about 20 months so he is responsible for promotions on his watch but he is stuck with Rummys “hand” to choose from.

Gates has NOT undone the harm Rummy did to the upper levels of our military and does not seem to be interested in trying.

[edit on 8/5/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by DarthAmerica

 

That's because presidents take the advice of military chiefs who aren't basing decisions and recommendations on political party ideology but rather threat analysis. You will see soon enough. McCain or Obama will seem very much like "Bush" in a lot of ways with regard to the war. If you know what the USA national security imperatives are, it's not hard to figure out when we will or wont fight.

We know if Obama wins the Dems will clean house in all the appointive positions in all the cabinet departments including DoD. McCain will too, but maybe not so fast.

I am hoping for the uniformed services upper levels to also get a house cleaning. America has always been overloaded with stars in the top grades - O7 - O10 - compared to other nations. Well, since War 2 anyway. Many of them go into “retirement” as soon as they get a second star but linger on another few years. Sort of like Federal judges who go on Senior status.

We certainly want gone all those sycophants put into important posts by Herr Oberfuhrer Rumsfeld.

You certainly aren't familiar with how those positions are filled or the role of the SecDef. Again, this is why you need to avoid insults in a mature discussion. When you write things like "Herr Oberfuhrer Rumsfeld", it shows bias. When you can't even describe how the way the Generals are appointed. It shows ignorance. I bet you could not explain accurately any of your criticisms of Former SecDef Rumsfeld. A great American who loved America as much as anyone and did the things he though necessary to make it a little better. Yet you are trashing him in public on issues you can't even comprehend. C'mon, you are all over the place with inaccurate criticism.

Look, pick an issue, preferably related to the threat topic. And tell me why you feel the way you do. Support that with facts and data and leave out the hyperbolic characterizations so we can take you as a serious and mature person.

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by SFwife

 

Who did Rumsfeld put into post? Military promotions do NOT work that way.

Gates has NOT undone the harm Rummy did to the upper levels of our military and does not seem to be interested in trying.

Who is Rummy? Also exactly what harm are you alleging against SecDef Rumsfeld?

reply to post by noangels


You really should be ashamed of yourself. Do you realize that your freedom of speech is and was secured by the very people you call liars and occupiers? Easy for you to blast the men and women who lay their life on the line for you daily noangel, while you sit and mindlessly type away from the safety of your computer. Unfortunately, the path your country is headed down you may get a chance to experience firsthand just what it is like to live under a selfish, evil dictator and sharia law. Then who will have your back?

Originally posted by paxnatus
reply to post by noangels

 

You really should be ashamed of yourself. Do you realize that your freedom of speech is and was secured by the very people you call liars and occupiers? Easy for you to blast the men and women who lay their life on the line for you daily noangel, while you sit and mindlessly type away from the safety of your computer. Unfortunately, the path your country is headed down you may get a chance to experience firsthand just what it is like to live under a selfish, evil dictator and sharia law. Then who will have your back?

How in the blue hell is the United States Military "defending our freedoms" by fighting in Iraq? HOW!

Are the Iraqi people going to come over to America and stick a gun up my ass and take away my freedom of speech? Are they going to come across the ocean and shove a IED under my bed?

The Iraqi people are NOT, were NOT, and will NOT be a threat to the United States of America. Anyone saying they were, are, or will be is an absolute moron and knows NOTHING about the capabilities of Iraq, and obviously stupid beyond all belief to believe a civilization thousands of miles away in the middle of the desert could pose a threat to a the greatest militarized country on the planet.

Admiral Yamamoto: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." - Abraham Lincoln

Thank you DarthAmerica for giving of yourself so freely to insure that me and my family are just a little safer at night. Thank you also for doing the job that most of us would not want to do, nor could do.

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends"
John 15:13

Originally posted by paxnatus
Thank you DarthAmerica for giving of yourself so freely to insure that me and my family are just a little safer at night. Thank you also for doing the job that most of us would not want to do, nor could do.

Yes, thanks for helping kill those thousands of bad Iraqis and making refugees out of millions more. This "war" has made you far less safe. How many terrorists do you think have been created from all of this? Again I support the troops, but certainly not our government. It's American foreign policy that is listed as the #1 reason why people across the planet hate the U.S.

And in regards to someones comment about how U.S. military intervention has made the world a better place, tell me how life in Iraq is better. I don't see it. Tell me why the U.S. switches alliances to support the Taliban and then fight them. Why did they overthrow a democratic government in Iran if that is their said goal for goverments in the middle east? Why is Saudi Arabia an ally when they have the most oppressive government in the middle east? Why was the U.S. allied with Iraq and Hussein at one point? How did U.S. intervention in Bolivia help that country? Same question for Argentina. How about Granada? Was that a good idea? It seems pretty clear to me that the U.S. foreign policy is purely self-centered with the goal being to take control of the world's resources and screw everyone else. Most would agree. Read Shock Doctrine by Naomi Campbell.


[edit on 6-8-2008 by ghofer]

reply to post by DarthAmerica

I guess you already have too many people to discuss issues with, just ignore my giganourmouse post, I don't mind

I have never, ever, read such ignorance. This is pure delusion. To say you are know what is going on all over Iraq is just ridiculous, pure and simple. Nothing more to be said on the issue, it is fanciful at the very, very best.

Your comments on people dying in Mexico only illustrates how fundamentally skewed your thinking is, you do not include Iraqis - how very sad.

What more can a soldier be in a military machine ? They are not a general, a strategic planner, a politician. Sorry, but thats just the simple reality of the situation. and can not be changed with pride or hopeful thinking.

Your comments on working with the Brits illustrate exactly my point that you are profoundly unaware of the situation. You have compartmentalised, regional, need to know understanding of the war.

Here is a simple article you could read to illustrate the point

www.guardian.co.uk...

There are libraries of theory, information, facts and figures available on iraq which are available to the truly dedicated, and your hands on experience in some piecemeal aspect of the Iraq war is in no way more informed than the dedicated research of people all over the world in hundreds of different fields. Your dismissive attitude only serves to highlight your resistance to understanding and real knowledge while serving as a beacon to your ignorance.

Do you think you are any different to the solder of Vietnam, Korea, WWII - better equipped maybe - but are you some how more authorised, more empowered, more enlightened or are you simply the same cog in the war machine that the soldier has always been.

All of human history is smudged with the stain of war, your experience does not warrant you the authority to ride rough shot over the collective knowledge of our entire human race - show some broadness of mind and humility of character in the face of such overwhelming truth.

One other MAJOR ISSUE which you have simply been unable to comprehend which every other observer on the planet knows - it is IRAN who has called for calm in IRAQ and subdued the Shiite Militias - it is ABSOLUTELY NOT the surge.

This isn't some theory it is a fact. It was done to prove Iran's cooperative stance to the international community while at eh same time flexing its regional power in a direct display aimed at the U.S. something your OWN GENERALS have acknowledged as deeply worrying.


For someone who has spent time in Iraq you are sadly misinformed.

I very much doubt you have any serious role in Iraq or even know that much about he situation despite your assurances to the contrary.