Baghdad, Five Years On: Desperate Life And Failed Surge

reply to post by donwhite


And applaud for you sir, the reality is that people are better off without the realities of war as long as is in another country, far away from the delicate sensitivities of the American minds and eyes.

Bush and his cons has made sure of that claiming that is for the well being and privacy of the families.

Propaganda goes both ways.

But as long as the death is reported with one well clean and groomed service man or woman in a picture without the details of the death they remind in the minds of the population alive and well.

Pity.

This administration sure learned well after vietnam.

Anybody wants to know what is going on with the population left alone in Iraq to deal with everyday war just goggle Amnesty international, there you will read the story of the thousands of orphans,sick, maimed and alone, thanks to bushes war.

The catastrophic security situation has led to mass movement of civilians, resulting in almost 2 million refugees fleeing to neighboring countries and over 2 million internally displaced persons. Reports of torture, ill-treatment and lack of judicial process at the hands of Iraqi authorities continue. Adequate safeguards against torture and ill-treatment are not in place in Multinational Force detention facilities, and thousands continue to be held without charge or trial.

.

www.amnestyusa.org...

If iraq was doing so well and the surge was keeping the population safe why in the hell 2 million Iraqis are refugees of other nations.

Deny ignorance don't spread it.

Iraq is not safe no even for their own people left alone for American soldiers.

Regarless of what our present administration is trying to paint to the American population.

Iraq is hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!


[edit on 4-8-2008 by marg6043]

Here's what I saw.

I saw an arab guy with a british english going on about "how things used to be". Now, is this propaganda? I don't think so. He's telling it from his perspective; he can't go into the green zone so he only gets to tell it from the other side of the fence, so to speak. How about the US troops who probably never, or rarely, get outside the green zone? For them, it probably looks pretty good.

for those outside the green zone is life any better? I'll bet not. Saddam was a tyrant but he had the most religious tolerance of any arabian leader, he had the freest public of any arabian leader. Was he a saint? I'd hazard to say no. But, in all of the pre-war videos made about Iraq I never saw a woman with a veil. After the war? Every video I see that has a woman int it has a veil. What we've done is allow the extremists to do exactly what the documentarian has alleged. We've allowed some very anti-freedom folks to indoctrinate a new generation. Before the war, they would've gotten a few. Now, they get them all; except the lucky few inside the green zone. More angry kids that hate america. Yeah!... gee wiz.

there was an iraqi blogger that stopped blogging when she arrived in Damascus (riverbend, you can read her blog it's still up, and watch the tone of her writing change). she documents very well how life changed, not for the better, for her and her people after the war. She was afraid to go out. She took her veil out of storage because to be seen without one was a death sentence. It was not like that before the war.

Should we have taken Saddam down? I think the answer to that question is now moot. What we should do now is the real question and to be honest the answer is sharp on both sides...

Originally posted by marg6043
The US main stream media caters to their puppet masters.

Life in Iraq is a hell, those are the words of friends working in Iraq and military coming back from Iraq.

At least everyone that I know and talk to in daily basis, in my local base

Just this last Christmas we have one friend in the service visiting his family that his job was to scrape body parts from the sidewalks and streets after they are blown apart.

Yes propaganda alright.

Still Hell. True. But the point is it's a better Hell then the Hell a year ago..

Isn't that enough to celebrate?

In all seriousness even though the Iraqi war is winding down (for now..?) and death tolls are dropping.. there has been relatively no economic growth there.. if people don't have jobs, mortgages, bills, and enough materialistic garbage to make them complacent, they will still fight.

Which is why im surprised the US has not installed several Walmarts to pacify the Iraqi people.. I think it would help ..

Originally posted by WarBow
Here's what I saw.

I saw an arab guy with a british english going on about "how things used to be". Now, is this propaganda? I don't think so. He's telling it from his perspective; he can't go into the green zone so he only gets to tell it from the other side of the fence, so to speak. How about the US troops who probably never, or rarely, get outside the green zone? For them, it probably looks pretty good.

Never go outside the Green Zone? What troops are those? I'd like to know because I spend the vast majority of my time outside of it. Iraq is better, plain and simple. It's a change I watched happen for the last year. That isn't even debatable.

Also, people need to stop saying "Bush's War." This is "America's War" and any US President would have went there on the advice of the Joint Chiefs following 9/11. A President Gore would have done the same thing. Except it would be the GOP and Republican voters bashing him. They would be equally ignorant as those who are opposing this war today in reality.

People need to get informed and start asking those of us who know and/or have seen with our own eyes why we are there and spend more than 5 minutes surfing the web to form an opinion. If some of you only had any idea how naive and ignorant you are you would lose your minds. This war is a hard concept to grasp if you don't have a complete understanding of world history for the last 100 years.

reply to post by marg6043

Anybody wants to know what is going on with the population left alone in Iraq to deal with everyday war just goggle Amnesty international, there you will read the story of the thousands of orphans,sick, maimed and alone, thanks to bushes war.

I tell anyone who will listen you are my favorite poster on ATS! Thanks again for the boost in my morale. Years ago I was an AI correspondent. I am satisfied it works. Not in every case. I doubt Robert Mogabe gives a hoot about AI or anything other than a Swiss bank account and an open ended amnesty. But a lot of countries do care.

Did you see the BBC tonight where the US, UK, India and Italy /?/ were polled about their perception of China? About the same number of Indians thought the Chinese were free as US and UK thought they were not. This goes to the argument that most people care more about personal security than they care about personal participation in government. Which idea I have come to endorse because we have TOO MUCH DEMOCRACY in America. More on that later and elsewhere.

I really do hope Obama wins and we can get a new start in '09. Getting a new start is more important than knowing exactly where we are going before we leave. How about starting on an adventure?

reply to post by DarthAmerica


You have to admit both sides of this debate are talking rubbish, it doesn't matter how convenient the individual Iraqi lives are today when we know for a fact that it was much better under Saddam. If America hated Saddam so much because of his mass killing (1991) than why didn't America help the up rise.

Most Americans either act stupid or are stupid. They pretend Saddam was just a bad man who started killing Kurds and Shias because he felt like testing his new weapons nope that's not what happened kids, there was an up rise and the Iraqi people desperately asked America to help them get rid of Saddam Hussein, they even sent delegates to Kuwait where America established a base the previous year.

I mean common you leave the poor Iraqi people hanging like that and approximately ten years later you invade their country based on wrong accusations and excuses which as a result at minimum 100,000 and at maximum over a million lives demolished and ruined. Considering the number of deaths you have to admit probably every Iraqi life is affected by this loony war.

Soo many things happened, this surge is not going to make us forget, if it in anyway ends the war or not.

Torture in Iraq worse now than under Saddam?
www.msnbc.msn.com...

Iraqis Endure Worse Conditions Than Under Saddam, UN Survey Finds
health-now.org...

For Iraqi women: Life better under Saddam
www.kuwaittimes.net...

I can go on for days, any ways I’ll hold America directly responsible for the innocent deaths in Iraq, even if you argue that ahhh most deaths were caused by the sectarian violence, I can argue in response that most deaths in 9/11 were cause after the buildings collapsed (the aftermath similar to the Iraq war :@@, not many people died when the planes hit the towers get what I mean. You hold Muslims responsible in general I hold you responsible in general using your same freakin logic. Maybe I should invade America uhm I hope I'm not on the watch list hehe probably am because just found out Americans have no right to privacy no more(SUX)

Please learn the history of Iraq Iraq is not like Germany or Japan or South Korea. They have different cultures, different ideologies, different race, different language, I mean what more can I say. America wants to bring Democracy to Iraq (which is it's most recent excuse for invading it in the first place :@@, yet at the same time it's supporting almost all of the dictators in the middle east ahhh example: Mubarak, Abdullah, Musharraf, Mohamed VI... Iraq will never be successfull, Afghanistan will never be successfull. Now I'm from Afghanistan and I got many relatives there, sum relatives even working under the Americans (that's the only job available in Afghanistan at the momment), what I hear from my relatives is that more and more people are getting sick of America and it's coalition, reminds me of what happened to USSR. The number of radicals are growing in an alarming speed, ofcurse you can always blame Pakistan lolxx but this is the news I get from within Afghanistan (no external fighters). Wake up, America is not a super power anymore, you got bills to pay to China

reply to post by Ownification


Your post is so ignorant and full of hyperbole and errors that it's not worth responding to directly. If you want to discuss this, do it objectively and focus on a single coherent VERIFIABLE issue. Otherwise you are ideologically motivated and nothing I say will change you even though I have the benefit of seeing with my own eyes. If there was anything to suggest we were losing or unjustified in being here I would be the first to scream it at the top of my lungs.

-DA

reply to post by marg6043


Even you can't pretend Amnesty International is not a biased source for information........ hells, biased might be to light of a word...

reply to post by donwhite


I agree but as usual I get my take of Iraq from different sources and the last one I trust is my own government news.

About Obama yes he will win but that if McCain interest groups will allow it.

It could end up just like 2000 decided by our bias supreme court.

reply to post by WarBow

How about the US troops who probably never, or rarely, get outside the green zone? For them, it probably looks pretty good.

The Green Zone is just a base on an island type structure in Bahgdad, most troops are not stationed in the Green Zone, as the Green Zone is for military use, yes, but also homes for politians, gov employees, VIP's, and various other aspects..

Saddam was a tyrant but he had the most religious tolerance of any arabian leader

I don't think we went to war to "spread democracy" at all, or I certainly hope not, and I could careless if a country has a tyrant of a leader, we have no business in attacking. However, I will not accept your ignorance without correction ...

Saddam was a Sunni in a Shia country, he suppressed the Shia and engaged in Ethnic Cleansing of the Kurds. Hardly religious tollerance..

he had the freest public of any arabian leader.

Perception .. I would say Iran or UAE was free'er .. then again, how does one measure that?

Was he a saint? I'd hazard to say no.

Hazard a no? He was a prick. Warrant an invasion? Nah, but he was still a prick.

But, in all of the pre-war videos made about Iraq I never saw a woman with a veil.

That's a religious thing.. if you where not culturally ignorant, you would know that only certain type of sects where the berka. Shia are often not as strict.

Iraq is mostly Shia..

We've allowed some very anti-freedom folks to indoctrinate a new generation.

True, absolutely true.. the fundies took over and made it a mess.

In the name of God, of course.

More angry kids that hate america. Yeah!... gee wiz.

I agree.. I am sure history classes will be mutated in a way to make America a hero though. American sponsored schools right?

reply to post by DarthAmerica

. . first, let me answer a question with a question. Why would a person not want to be included in "we"? We is anybody who participates in Globalization. If you use the internet, have a 401K or drive a car. You are part of Globalization. So it is in your interest to be "we" unless you want to live in poverty and in perpetual warfare.

That is correct as a principle. If by "globalization" you mean primarily that we live on one planet. But there is globalization and there is globalization. I want to see American workers protected against the downside of cheap labor. I want to see America’s buying power put to the advantage of both those foreign workers and their environment. If it is after all as you claim, globalization and not just some capitalists jargon covering a new way to exploit the world’s disadvantaged workers.

The USA has left a legacy of prosperity almost anywhere US troops are stationed. Again, look at the record. Almost place US troops have remained post WW II in any significant numbers is completely free of war and extremely prosperous.

Correlation is not necessarily causation. It may be coincidence. We have no right to claim Western Europe is what it is today because the US maintained 150,000 soldiers there for 50 years. There are very good reasons why Europe is “free of war.” One third of the marriage eligible young men of France, Britain and Germany were killed in World War 1. The UK lost nearly 1 million and Germany lost 8 million in World War 2. France lost its honor which is almost as destructive of a nation. Inadequate leaders.

I’ve never been to Dresden but I’m pretty sure NO German wants it repeated. I do believe Europe is now POST war. And POST Christian. Those 2 went so well together for 2,000 years. Now its time to move on to better times.

Places where there are little or no US troops, such as Africa, South America and Central Asia are war ravaged and run by war lords and live much harsher lives.

Ignorance is bliss. Americans have killed or caused to be killed more than 200,000 citizens of Central America since 1903, most of it for United Fruit Company, Dole Company and General Foods. Read about how bananas have destroyed much of Central America. Read how Land Reform is the central issue there and how the USMC and CIA have been the bully on the block to stop it. Poor? Yes, but there have been plenty of US Armed Forces in the Cental and South America since President Monroe claimed the Western Hemisphere for American business say capitalists.

Again, America exports security and economic prosperity. The worlds core nations, America, NATO, Russia, China, India, Australia, Japan, South Korea all have a responsibility to facilitate the general improvement of human quality of life globally so that you don't have to be a citizen of a G8 nation to live in peace and economic stability.

Good GOD A’Mighty! Get that hook, line and sinker out of your mouth before you swallow it! Sweet Jesus! Was it not Herr Josef Goebbels who said “A big lie told often becomes the truth?”

[edit on 8/4/2008 by donwhite]

its simple as this, baghdad is worse today then yesterday, and worse today then last year. cnn,bbs,abc, etc these are brian washing machines designed to only put news which suit their needs.

you know, we have a saying in serbia, when we see americans fight in wars, oh look at that actor his so good i want to be him

thats the american world police problem, you guys are just really bad actors with new hardware.

Originally posted by solo1
My only observation is FRY the neocons and nail them to the wall.

They have brought shame to America
Dual citizens all over Washington ,With one ideology to serve and Protect the homeland of Israel.
Are Americans not good enough to run Washington?



[edit on 4-8-2008 by solo1]

All neolibs need to move to Canada and stay there.
Free health care up there! Don't come back.

Originally posted by DarthAmerica

Originally posted by romanmel

Originally posted by noangels
...Can you imagine if this conflict was avoided with an old fashioned duel,the amount of people who would still be alive today rather than rotting away in their early graves all because Bush and Blair lied to the world

Yeah, but if they did that Haliburton wouldn't have made billions of dollars supplying soldiers with tainted water and $6 MRE's at $18 each. This war is strictly about dollars and oil. No connection with 9-11 and no WMD's...just lotsa greed by the Bush/Cheney puppets of the NWO crowd, that really run this country. War without end...John Mccain will continue the rape of the citizen's of both Iraq and the good 'ol USA, all while listless, slackjaw followers accept whatever the "bought and paid for" press spouts about "success of the surge". Wake up...before you are a slave to these neo-con madmen!!

Prove any of the assertions above?

OK, "Workers Allege Halliburton Knew Their Water Was Foul" (charges by their own employees in Iraq) -Washington Post...read it and weap:

www.washingtonpost.com...

Iraq is a messy war. The first of it's kind really. The credit for such a quick push into Iraq was never given to the troops who blitzed Sadam like the Germans did Poland. You left wing cowards are the biggest group of retards I have ever seen. You are going to loose the White House again in 2008 because while you simple idiots play checkers the GOP is playing chess. The surge is working, the economy is picking up again, oil is dropping, and Obama is not going to win. Come back to this thread in Dec and show me how wrong I was. I will bet you my membership on ATS I am right about all of that. As for keeping war OFF US soil by hitting these Islamic nut jobs in their home countries...I am all for it. We have the POWER and they do not. It all boils down to that. We could in 30 minutes kill every man woman and child on this planet. They won't have that power in 30 more years.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by TXMACHINEGUNDLR]

reply to post by TXMACHINEGUNDLR


As much as I don't like Obama's socialist stances, or McCains Bush written sound bites..

I would have to say OBama will win.. because..

The surge is working

This is the longest occupation in American history.. America is tired of it.. wars are not meant to last this long, 5 and a half years is unacceptable, regardless if "we are finally making progress" .. what a crock of #

the economy is picking up again

We are just beginning to understand the dynamics of America's worst financial F'up in our history.. the implications of which have not yet been felt, have not yet been revealed, and are yet to actually come into "the light" so to speak..

oil is dropping

Which rose in the first place because of the economic crisis and the banking problems.

The arrogance and ignorance from you **ppl** who have never been there is just unreal .

Get a #ing clue .seriously

reply to post by Rockpuck


I applaud you for that post, thank for keep it real and denying Ignorance, without falling for the bickering my friend.

DarthAmerica: Your version of globalization is loaded within your clip.
That's the "we" I don't care to be a part of and I guarantee you that no matter how well it looks to you while being protected in a frag vest and supported by drones and grid busters, there will be another who sees you as the enemy and globalization in the form you want will never be a reality.. Unless of course you feel that "might equals right"

donwhite and Rockpuck have eloquently covered the other bases in response to your superior rant of "why BSpiracy is foolish for not wanting to be a part of "we"

The ideological driven viewpoint is not wrong. it's why it's "ideological" It's just so foreign to you as a plausible reality that you disregard it as fictitious in concept.

I'm a vet from the Gulf War and close to this one via friends and lost friends in reality and metaphorically. There will never be a thing you can say to change my viewpoint because your belief to keep killing and occupying to fix another country will always seed more death down the road. For globalization to ever truly work, it will have to be as a group effort and mutual growth. The occupation of Iraq will not be forgotten and regrowth will take more than a century at least. In your view, you want to be in another country "fixing" things in 1/40 th of that time..

meanwhile America is falling apart.. which means that no matter what you do around the world, we will all fail in the long run.

b

UTTER BS, THE SURGE HAS WORKED!

BTW, Obama opposed it from the beginning and yet he took a victory lap while in Iraq just a few weeks ago.