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Nevil Chamberlin Vs General Patton

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Topic started on 4-8-2008 @ 04:26 AM by TKainZero

Do you know these personalities...
Here is a couple vids, that will show the GENERAL mindset of the 2 men

YouTube Link

" I have met with the German Chancelor, Hiel Hitler, and he has assured me, that we will have peace..."

YouTube Link

"You know i actuly feel sorry for those poor bastards we are going against, By god i do, were not just going to kill the bastard, we are going cut out thier guts, and use them to Grease out tanks, were going to Murder them By the Bushel..."
"No man ever won a war by dieing for his country, he won by making the other poor bastard die for his"

These are 2 diffrent mind sets...

And you can remove the names, and just focus on the ideas...

Appeasement

or

Ass-kicking

I only bring this up, because we are Chamberlins reincarnations here today, an entire legion of them...

Make no mistake about it, the Brittish people loved Chamberlin, right up until WWII broke out, and he was left standing with documents, and treaties that were unfillied by Hitler...

You cannot negotiate with madmen...

I would love for some of the Younger members to look at these videos... Which man would you like to be your leader...

Any other thoughts would be nice... and if anyone would like to draw a parrall to Modern times, be my guest.

[edit on 8/4/2008 by TKainZero]

[edit on 8/4/2008 by TKainZero]

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reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 05:10 AM by Mcloud313

I'm kind of a young man, 21 years old and in the Military...I have to say that I'd have to choose between the two depending upon the times I live on. During World War II Patton of course as that time we actually had a foreign enemy and clear goals for victory during war. During these times where we are dealing with terrorism and the only way to fight it is with education and indifference I don't think someone of Patton's nature would be as valuable as Chamberlain.

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 05:20 AM by OutoftheBoxthinker

Chamberlain was a weak pacifist gentleman who allowed himself to be manipulated on all sides. Patton was a rude but efficient American "cowboy" who realized after WW2 that he had been fighting the wrong side and who got himself killed for trying to expose this. As such, I hold far more respect and admiration for Patton.

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 05:32 AM by Havalon

reply to post by TKainZero

Hi TKainZero

Interesting thread.
It would be also interesting to see the ‘time line’ of these two speeches.

Chamberlain was a ‘diplomat’, Patton was a fully blown military General.
Chamberlain seriously got ‘shafted’ by Hitler (on a ‘diplomatic’ front)

By the time Patton (and the US) got involved, a lot of blood had been spilt.

In times of duress, and bloodshed it is always good to have a person of ‘strong’ character stand up and be counted.
When WW2 got underway, Churchill stepped up to the plate and rallied the populace.
Meanwhile across the Atlantic there was some hooing and hahing as to whether they should get involved or not.
Pearl Harbour saw to it that they did.

I would rather see a George Patton go up against a General Montgomery, or a Neville Chamberlain go up against a Jimmy Carter.
Military and Politicians do not make good bedfellows, but make good enemies.

My two cents, and thanks for the thread.

H

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reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 05:48 AM by TKainZero

The speach that Chamberlin gave was in spet of 1938...

Patton was in the early 40's...

The video of Patton is from a movie, but the message is clear.

The video of chambelin is media film from the news outlets...

The people are not important, the ideas, and mind set are the issue. The issue of apeasement and the idea of destorying your enemy.

The Charecters and theatures change, but the plot is the same... the story is the same...

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 06:13 AM by Havalon

The speech that Chamberlain gave was in Sept of 1938...

A lot happened between then and….

Patton was in the early 40's...

After a lot of blood had been spilled.

The video of Patton is from a movie, but the message is clear.

From a script writer or verbatim?

The video of Chamberlain is media film from the news outlets...

Unscripted, as it happened, as he believed what he had been told by Hitler.

The people are not important, the ideas, and mind set are the issue. The issue of appeasement and the idea of destroying your enemy.

Chamberlain did not ‘think’ he had an ‘enemy’ at that moment in time!

Patton knew he had an enemy (at his time), and it was the German army.
He knew how to motivate his troops to do the necessary thing and win the war, both for him (Patton) and the USA.

I say again, Chamberlain was not a military man but just a politician who got ‘screwed’ by a megalomaniac.

H

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 06:18 AM by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by Havalon
Chamberlain did not ‘think’ he had an ‘enemy’ at that moment in time!

That's because he didn't allow himself to be manipulated by the British war mongers at that time... although he did cave in later on.

Originally posted by Havalon
Patton knew he had an enemy (at his time), and it was the German army.
He knew how to motivate his troops to do the necessary thing and win the war, both for him (Patton) and the USA.

... and after he the war he realised that he should have been fighting Jews and communists along with Hitler rather than fighting Hitler. When he tried to get this message through, he was killed by an "accident".

Originally posted by Havalon
I say again, Chamberlain was not a military man but just a politician who got ‘screwed’ by a megalomaniac.

Indeed. He got screwed by Churchill and the other British war mongers

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 06:29 AM by Havalon

Reply to OutoftheBoxthinker

Indeed. He got screwed by Churchill and the other British war mongers

If Churchill had not stepped up to the plate, then Europe would have been very different today - and NASA would still be a fledgling aerospace industry!

H

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 06:31 AM by TKainZero

reply to post by Havalon

Everything you said is true, but the fact remains, the the rest of the world was miffed by the actions of Chamberlin, and his actions in the years leading up to the war.

Here is the transcript of the Speech... Now there is some MAJOR foul language here, so ill clean it up in the quote, But everything else is verbatum, and the movie is prety close to what he said.

And Now, The Speech:

To the United States Third Army - May 31, 1944:

Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country

Men, this stuff we hear about America wanting to stay out of the war, not wanting to fight, is a lot of bull[feces]. Americans love to fight - traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the big-league ballplayers, the toughest boxers. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win - all the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost, nor ever will lose, a war. The very thought of losing is hateful to an American.

You are not all going to die. Only 2 percent of you here today would die in a major battle. Death must not be feared. Every man is frightened at first in battle. If he says he isn't, he's a goddamn liar. Some men are cowards, yes! But they fight just the same, or get the hell shamed out of them watching men who do fight who are just as scared. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some get over their fright in a minute under fire, some take an hour. For some it takes days. But the real man never lets fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to this country, and his innate manhood.

All through your Army career you have [comlpained] about "chicken[feces] drill." That is all for a purpose. Drilling and discipline must be maintained in any army if for only one reason - instant obedience to orders and to create constant alertness. I don't give a damn for a man who is not always on his toes. You men are veterans or you wouldn't be here. You are ready. A man to continue breathing must be alert at all times. If not, some time a German son-of-a-[female dog] will sneak up behind him and beat him to death with a sock full of [feces].

There are 400 neatly marked graves somewhere in Sicily because one man went to sleep on his job. But they were German graves, for we caught the bastard asleep before his officers did.

An Army is a team - lives, sleeps, eats, fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is a lot of crap. The bilious bastards who write that kind of stuff for The Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real fighting, under fire, than they do about fornicating. We have the best food, the finest equipment, the best spirit, and the best fighting men in the world. Why, by God, I actually pity these poor sons-of-bitches we are going up against. By God, I do!

My men don't surrender. I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he is hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight. That's not just bull#, either. The kind of man I want under me is like the lieutenant in Libya who, with a Lugar against his chest, jerked off his helmet, swept the gun aside with one hand, and busted the hell out of the German with the helmet. Then he jumped on the gun and went out and killed another German: All this with a bullet through his lung. That's a man for you.

All real heroes are not storybook combat fighters, either. Every man in the Army plays a vital part. Every little job is essential. Don't ever let down, thinking your role is unimportant. Every man has a job to do. Every man is a link in the great chain. What if every truck driver decided he didn't like the whine of the shells overhead, turned yellow, and jumped headlong into the ditch? He could say to himself, "They won't miss me - just one in thousands." What if every man said that? Where in hell would we be now?

No, thank God, Americans don't say that! Every man does his job; every man serves the whole. Every department, every unit, is important to the vast scheme of things. The Ordnance men are needed to supply the guns, the Quartermaster to bring up the food and clothes to us - for where we're going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last man in the mess hall, even the one who heats the water to keep us from getting the GIs, has a job to do. Even the chaplain is important, for if we get killed and if he is not there to bury us, we'd all go to hell.

Each man must not only think of himself but of his buddy fighting beside him. We don't want yellow cowards in this Army. They should all be killed off like flies. If not, they will go back home after the war and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed brave men. Kill off the goddamn cowards and we'll have a nation of brave men.

One of the bravest men I ever saw in the African campaign was on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of furious fire while we were plowing toward Tunis. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at that time. He answered, "Fixing the wire, sir." "Isn't it a little unhealthy right now?" I asked. "Yes sir, but this goddamn wire's got to be fixed." There was a real soldier. There was a man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how great the odds, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty might appear at the time.

You should have seen those trucks on the road to Gabes. The drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they rolled over those son-of-a-[female dog] roads - never stopping, never faltering from their course, with shells bursting around them all the time. We got through on good old American guts. Many of those men drove over 40 consecutive hours. Those weren't combat men. But they were soldiers with a job to do. They did it - and in a whale of a way. They were part of a team. Without them the fight would have been lost. All the links in the chain pulled together and that chain became unbreakable.

Don't forget, you don't know I'm here. No word of the fact is to be mentioned in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell became of me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this Army. I'm not even supposed to be in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the goddamn Germans. Someday I want them to raise up on their hind legs and howl, "Ach, it's the goddamn Third Army and that son-of-a-[female dog] Patton again."

We want to get the hell over there. We want to get over there and clear the goddamn thing up. You can't win a war lying down. The quicker we clean up this goddamn mess, the quicker we can take a jaunt against the Japs and clean their nest out too, before the Marines get all the goddamn credit.

Sure, we all want to be home. We want this thing over with. The quickest way to get it over is to get the bastards. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin. When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a German will get him eventually, and the hell with that idea. The hell with taking it. My men don't dig foxholes. I don't want them to. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. And don't give the enemy time to dig one. We'll win this war but we'll win it only by fighting and by showing the Germans we've got more guts than they do.

There is one great thing you men will all be able to say when you go home. You may thank God for it, thank God that at least 30 years from now - when you're sitting around the fireside with your grandson on your knees, and he asks you what you did in the great war - you won't have to cough and say, "I shoveled [feces] in Louisiana."

Alright now, you sons of [female dogs], you know how I feel. I will be proud to lead you wonderful guys into battle anytime, anywhere. That's all.

Thats beauty...

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 06:33 AM by TKainZero

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
... and after he the war he realised that he should have been fighting Jews and communists along with Hitler rather than fighting Hitler.

Oh no...

I think i may have brought out the Nazi symathizers...

My bad....

----

Here is a Nice TV documentry of the lead-up to War, from 33-39

YouTube Link

I think there are striking similarites to the modern world...

[edit on 8/4/2008 by TKainZero]

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reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 06:41 AM by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by Havalon
Reply to OutoftheBoxthinker
If Churchill had not stepped up to the plate, then Europe would have been very different today

Probably... but that doesn't mean it would have been worse.

Originally posted by TKainZero

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
... and after he the war he realised that he should have been fighting Jews and communists along with Hitler rather than fighting Hitler.

Oh no...

I think i may have brought out the Nazi symathizers...

I find it peculiar how those saying that the UK and US are run by evil men today somehow only see good in the "leaders" of those same countries 60 years ago and how easily everyone buys into all the horror propaganda told by these very same "leaders" about the Third Reich.

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 06:42 AM by OutoftheBoxthinker

Just a simple question : do you believe that Patton died in an accident or do you believe he was murdered?

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 06:46 AM by TKainZero

reply to post by OutoftheBoxthinker

I haven't realy looked into the matter to comment with any athourity...

But i belive acidents do happen, but i am open to ideas, is there REAL reason to belive otherwise, and can you fill me in on it?

---

I have to add this....

FOr the Youtube videos, search:

"The World At War - Episode 1#"

For the #, inserst a letter a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h

The first one i linked is f, and most relevent to Chamberlin, but the entire series is great. Much better then the dreg they show on the history channel now...

So serch youtube with the phrase "The World At War - Episode 1g" or other letters... Not this second if you don't want, but when you can at leasure, or just look thru a couple when you can, they are very good, i havent seen such great archival film in a while...

[edit on 8/4/2008 by TKainZero]

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 07:04 AM by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by TKainZero
But i belive acidents do happen, but i am open to ideas, is there REAL reason to belive otherwise, and can you fill me in on it?

How Patton died : On December 9, 1945, in Germany a day before he was due to return to the United States, Patton was severely injured in a road accident. He and his chief of staff, Major General Hobart R. "Hap" Gay, were on a daytrip to hunt pheasants in the country outside Mannheim. Their 1939 Cadillac Model 75 was driven by PFC Horace Woodring (1926 - 2003). Patton sat in the back seat, on the right with General Gay on his left, as per custom. At 11:45 near Neckarstadt, (Käfertal), a 2½ ton truck driven by T/5 Robert L. Thompson appeared out of the haze and made a left-hand turn towards a side road. The Cadillac smashed into the truck. General Patton was thrown forward and his head struck a metal part of the partition between the front and back seats. Gay and Woodring were uninjured. Paralyzed from the neck down, George Patton died of an embolism on December 21, 1945 at the military hospital in Heidelberg, Germany with his wife present.

Strange coincidence : Patton's protege (Walton Walker) also died in a jeep accident that collided with a truck in Korea, in 1950.

Possible motive for killing him : Patton was very popular among he American public and he had turned against his superiors. He criticised the "de-nazification" of Germany, he criticised the US sympathy towards the communists and he largely shared Hitler's views on Jews. He believed he had been fighting the wrong party and he planned to go back to the US and address the American public on this issue.

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 07:06 AM by Havalon

I don’t want to go off topic too much, but I thought I might remind some of the British military minds (as opposed to politicians) way of thinking prior to battle.

Colonel Tim Collins had a slightly different approach when addressing his men on the eve of a battle for Basra as they entered into Iraq. However, that is the British way. Not so much ‘blood and guts’ but nevertheless, quite stirring to the troops ears.

We go to liberate, not to conquer.
We will not fly our flags in their country
We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own.
Show respect for them.

There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly.
Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send.
As for the others, I expect you to rock their world.
Wipe them out if that is what they choose.
But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.

Iraq is steeped in history.
It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham.
Tread lightly there.

You will see things that no man could pay to see
-- and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis.
You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing.

Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country.
Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.

If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day.
Allow them dignity in death.
Bury them properly and mark their graves.

It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive.
But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign.
We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back.
There will be no time for sorrow.

The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction.
There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam.
He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done.
As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.

It is a big step to take another human life.
It is not to be done lightly.
I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts.
I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them.

If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family.
The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.

If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer.
You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest -- for your deeds will follow you down through history.
We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation.

(On Saddam's chemical and biological weapons.)

It is not a question of if, it's a question of when.
We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself.
If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.

As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there.

Our business now is north.

Thought it worth showing again!
H

Edit to get it right!

[edit on 4-8-2008 by Havalon]

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 07:11 AM by TKainZero

reply to post by Havalon

Wow Hav, i guess there are still REAL men in England...

Thats refreshing to hear...

not to be off topic though...

And on Patton... Bad car adcidents are a thing that PLAUGES our generation... unfortunatly, many many far to many people die all the time from car crashes...

[edit on 8/4/2008 by TKainZero]

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reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 07:13 AM by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by TKainZero
Wow Hav, i guess there are still REAL men in England...

So those using false pretext for imperialist wars in the Middle East are "real men" in your opinion?!

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 07:15 AM by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by TKainZero
And on Patton... Bad car adcidents are a thing that PLAUGES our generation... unfortunatly, many many far to many people die all the time from car crashes...

Sure.... but that also makes it an excellent way to assassinate a man and call it an accident

Patton was becoming a major burden to the war mongers in Washington, so they had to get him out of the way.

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 07:21 AM by TKainZero

reply to post by OutoftheBoxthinker

Not everything is a huge conspiricy

and not every event is orcrustated by evil-powerful-men...

Don't get me wroung, there are plenty of both, but its something else to connect dots where there aren't...

So i propose to you 2 things,

1. please give me at least a paragraph of what you WOULD say to troops pre-battle.

2. Tell me what you would do from 09/12/01 foreward 10 years... outlined...

----

^that^ got the Nazi Sympathizer to take a hike...

Not to beraite the guy, hes a new memeber, we all mature as we grow on here, but right now... he needs to start to open his mind and learn...

[edit on 8/4/2008 by TKainZero]

reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 07:28 AM by Havalon

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by TKainZero
Wow Hav, i guess there are still REAL men in England...

So those using false pretext for imperialist wars in the Middle East are "real men" in your opinion?!

I don't think Col Collins was being 'Imperialistic' when he addressed his troops, he was looking to 'liberate' not 'conquer'. An imperialist would have said it all quite differently I assure you!

H