Challenge Match: ThroatYogurt vs ULTIMA1: The Official Story on Flight 93

The topic for this debate is "The Official Story Regarding The Crash Of Flight 93 Is Accurate and True".

ThroatYogurt will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
ULTIMA1 will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

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Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.
When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

Responses should be made within 24 hours. One single 24 hour extension can be used by a member by requesting it in the thread. If 24 hours passes without response, you may proceed with your next post. Members who exceed 24 hours run the risk of losing their post, but may still post up until their opponent has submitted their next response.

This is a challenge match. As both Fighters have no ranking points to wager, the winner will receive one ranking point.

[edit on 3-8-2008 by MemoryShock]

Thank you MemoryShock for the opportunity to use this forum to show the Flight 93 did in fact crash in Shanksville on September 11th, 2001.Members of ATS that frequent the 911 Conspiracy boards know the passion I have to set the story straight regarding the event for that day.

Why so passionate about this event? The passengers all knew of their fate after speaking with loved ones. They sat in that plane looking their killers in the eye. I can not fathom the fear that they had. Unlike the other 3 planes, the 33 passengers and 7 crew members on Flight 93 knew the rules. Their plane was late leaving the airport allowing them to learn from loved ones that planes were being flown into buildings. They did what they could to save themselves and possibly others.

Introduction

Facts of Flight 93

1- The Hijackers:All four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names One hijacker was selected for and passed an additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators.

2- The Phone CallsThere were many passengers and crew who called from the plane, spoke with family members, and told of the hijacking. They family members were also told of the plans they had to stop the hijackers. All but two of these calls were made using the planes' Airfones.

3- The CVR(Cockpit Voice Recorder)

Recorded several things:
*the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant
* a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board
* the sounds of the attempts by the passengers to gain entry.
* the hijackers decision to crash the plane in the ground
* the hijackers shouted "Allahu Akbar!" = ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed

4- Radar
Flight 93 was the only plane out of all 4 that was tracked by radar through the entire flight.

5- Witness Statements:
Many people in Pennsylvania witnessed the Boeing 757.They stated it was:

* traveling at low altitude and
*high speed,
*roll to the right and plummet upside-down,
*nose first, towards the ground.
*many witnessed the inredible explosion and fireball.
*local real-estate broker Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.

6-First Reposnders
Hundreds of first responders and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. Most of the firefighters that were on the scene were volunteer firemen.They saw:
* human remains
* aircraft wreckage
* personal effects*
* jet fuel

7- Crash Scene Workers

The crash scene had many workers including:
* 8 Police Departments
* 7 EMS Services
* 8 Fire Departments
*10 Emergency Management Agencies
* NTSB
* ATF
*FBI *CISM
* The Red Cross
*United Airlines


7- DNA Evidence

The remains of every victim was positively identified. This was done via DNA testing or by fingerprints and dental records.
Link

8- Personal Belongings
Personal effects of most passengers and crew were recovered and returned to their families.
link

I would like to start off by stating i am doing this to get more people to do research and search for facts and evidence instead of just going by what they have been told about what happened that day.

I have been doing a lot of research using government and professional research sites and sources. From my research i have found evidence that not only questions the official story but shows reasonable doubt about the official story. Evidence would suggest that Flight 93 was shot down to keep it from getting to its target.

1. As far as the FDR and CVR they were sequestered by the FBI to maintain completecontrol. 911research.wtc7.net...

2. There are 2 distinct and different debris fields a distance away from the crash site tat was too far for wind to blow for both fields.

3. There was a large piece of engine core found a distance away from the crash site, neither the wind, explosion, or bounce properly explains how this piece of engine could get that distance away from the crash site.

4. There are many eyewitness accounts of other aircraft in the area.

The Flight Data Recorder

The FBI were the lead investigators for the crash in Shanksville. The FDR was handed over to the NTSB Vehicle Recorders Division on September 13, 2001.

The SSFDR (Solid State Flight Data Recorder) was examined by the NTSB. They determined that the recorder and memory board were found to have damage. Since the amount of the damage was not known, the FDR was taken to the manufactures facility in Redman, Washington. The data was extracted at the Honeywell facility and electronically transfered to the NTSB headquarters.

The transcribed data were then processed by the (RAPS) "Recover Analysis and Presentation Systems" at NTSB headquarters. There, they converted the data into graphic and tabular forms. The examination of the data showed that the recorder operated normally.

The following link will take you to photographs of the recorder and memory board recovered from the crash scene. It also explains in detail how information was translated. In addition is all the graphs etc.

www.gwu.edu...

the Cockpit Voice Recorder

The CVR was found a day after the FDR was found at a depth of approx. 25 ft inside the ground. Presented as evidence at the Moussaoui as evidence, the entire transcript can be found here:

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

As posted in my opening statement the following was learned by the CVR:
*the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant
* a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board
* the sounds of the attempts by the passengers to gain entry.
* the hijackers decision to crash the plane in the ground
* the hijackers shouted "Allahu Akbar!" = ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed




The Debris Fields

While I don't agree with the "2 Distinct" debris fields, there were reports of debris 8 miles away in New Baltimore, PA. There were also debris in Indian Lake that was 2 1/2 miles away. Below please find a diagram of where debris were found.

I have to 100% agree that the debris that was found 8 miles away was clearly different from what was recovered close to the crash site. I have to 100% disagree that the debris field was too far away as Ultima1 states above.

FBI Special Agent Bill Crowley said experts from the National Transportation Safety Board had checked weather reports and concluded that lightweight materials traveled in the 11 MPH wind.

-Bill Crowley.
www.flight93crash.com...






This statement is not backed up by any professional analysis. Ultima is clearly posting his opinion. As I have shown in the past, Michael K. Hynes an airline accident expert states that this was not unusual:


www.popularmechanics.com...




Yes there were 2 other aircrafts in the area around the time if the crash. This too was explained back around September 16th 2001.

There was a Fairchild Falcon 20 business jet, operated by Yates Caldwell that was directed to the crash site to help rescuers. The request for the jet to fly low and obtain the location for the crash, explains reports by the people who said a white or silver jet flew by a short time after Flight 93 crashed.

There was also a A C-130 military cargo plane that was within 25 miles of the Flight 93 when it crashed. This was confirmed by FBI agent Crowley.


Question I would like to present to Ultima1:

Since you are leaning toward the shoot down theory:

- Several family members stayed on the line up until Flight 93 crashed, how come there were not any victims family members describing explosions?

I realize I can post more questions, I would like one answered at a time.

The FDR and CVR they were sequestered by the FBI to maintain completecontrol.

911research.wtc7.net...

The SSFDR (Solid State Flight Data Recorder) was examined by the NTSB. They determined that the recorder and memory board were found to have damage. Since the amount of the damage was not known, the FDR was taken to the manufactures facility in Redman, Washington. The data was extracted at the Honeywell facility and electronically transfered to the NTSB headquarters.

911research.wtc7.net...

As a matter of fact, ABC news reported on 9-13-2001 that “Although investigators look for an entire black box, sometimes the only parts of the device that survive are the recorder’s crash-survivable memory units (CSMU). The CSMU is almost indestructible. [A former NTSB source told us that only a direct hit from a nuclear blast can destroy it] ABC also said that “it is housed within a stainless-steel shell that contains titanium or aluminum and a high-temperature insulation of dry silica material.”

The CVR was found a day after the FDR was found at a depth of approx. 25 ft inside the ground. Presented as evidence at the Moussaoui as evidence, the entire transcript can be found here:

The question remains how were the black bosxes found but nothing of the tail section that would have survived. Like the heavy steel actuators and all the Tungsten counterweights.

While I don't agree with the "2 Distinct" debris fields, there were reports of debris 8 miles away in New Baltimore, PA. There were also debris in Indian Lake that was 2 1/2 miles away. Below please find a diagram of where debris were found.

See the following dagram that shows 2 distinct debris fields.

911research.wtc7.net...


Question I would like to present to Ultima1:

Since you are leaning toward the shoot down theory:

- Several family members stayed on the line up until Flight 93 crashed, how come there were not any victims family members describing explosions?

Well this witness did state on the phone about smoke and an explosion.

www.historycommons.org...
9:58 a.m. September 11, 2001: Passenger Ed Felt Said to Describe Explosion and White Smoke from Bathroom Call
Edward Felt. [Source: Family photo]A man dials emergency 9-1-1 from a bathroom on the plane, crying, “We’re being hijacked, We’re being hijacked!” [Toronto Sun, 9/16/2001] The operator reports, “He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him.” [ABC News, 9/11/2001; ABC News, 9/11/2001; Associated Press, 9/12/2001] One minute after the call begins, the line goes dead. [Pittsburgh Channel, 12/6/2001] Investigators believe this was Edward Felt, the only passenger not accounted for on phone calls. He was sitting in first class, so he probably was in the bathroom near the front of the plane. At one point, he appears to have peeked out the bathroom door during the call. [Longman, 2002, pp. 193-194, 196] The mentions of smoke and explosions on the recording of his call are now denied. [Longman, 2002, pp. 264] The person who took Felt’s call is not allowed to speak to the media. [Mirror, 9/12/2002]
Entity Tags: Edward Felt
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline

First of all, you are quoting an anonymous source. There is no way to confirm this statement.

The following is a substantial amount of information from the NTSB regarding the FDR. I find the quote from the anonymous source highly disingenuous.

Flight Data Report from flight 93:
www.ntsb.gov...

ATS Report Flight 93:
www.ntsb.gov...

Flight Path Study United Airlines Flight 93
www.ntsb.gov...

Recorded Radar Data Study all Four Aircraft
www.ntsb.gov...

No i am talking about large pieces that we know would have survived a crash. Where are the photos and reports of parts and peices that were found?




Sorry but i am going to take my sources over media sources that you have. I do not accept news media sources as a good source for evidence.




Actually no you have not proven it to be false, only stated it to be false.

I do not accept the following as good sources since their infomration has been debated or debunked.

1. NIST

2. Popular Mecahanics

3. News Media

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Edit for quote tag

[edit on 7-8-2008 by MemoryShock]

Since you are not an experienced crash scene investigator, your opinion on what was survivable in the Flight 93 crash is moot without the back-up of someone that investigated that flight. I would also accept the opinion of another experienced crash scene investigator. As far as I know, none have ever come out agreeing with you.






Ultima1, Your sources are from an old outdated news articles from the news media.

You won't accept the words of Mr. Felt's brother?

You won't accept the word's of the man who took his call? It really doesn't get much clearer than that.

Here are parts of your above posts linking or referring to news media:









I have shown you statements from people that lived in the Shanksville area the reported debris outside of your alleged two distinct debris fields. This is proof.

NIST was not part of any investigation regarding flight 93.

Popular Mechanics contacted a crash scene investigator. I posted the investigators quotes, note the opinions of what PM may or may not have had.

You wont accept new media reports? Your posts are filled with them.

You must have forgot to answer my last question from my previous post.

But i was a crew chief in the Air Force and know what parts are made out of and what will survive. I was also trained on crash recovery.

[quoteThere are several photos that were released to the public. I am quite certain you have seen them. The NTSB again, has made several reports as I have posted above.

How many crashes have you investigated?

Again, not one investigator that was at the crash site (many with more experience with you) has stated that the crash site and debris were inconsistent with the crash of flight 93.

We don't have a list of everything that was found. We don't have a list of what was not found.




1- As I showed above, Flight 93 was tracked on radar throughout the entire flight. There is no question as to what plane crashed in Shanksville.

2- All the physical evidence proves what plane crashed there and who was on that plane.




People that lived down wind from the impact point found debris and the debris was collected by the FBI and other officials:

www.thepittsburghchannel.com...

www.cnn.com...

(please note that you claimed a second debris field was 8 miles away this shows at least three now...my point is that there were many debris fields as this article was posted early in the investigation.)




I am not saying this is not true, please source this. I was unable to find any reports from NIST in regards to flight 93.

I skimmed the 911 Report, NIST Pages, typical google searches. The only reference was to the animated flight data that Killtown presented as NIST animation when in fact it was created by the NTSB.




What legal or "legit" 911 investigating agency have you sourced in this debate???

You can't wave your hand and claim they were debunked. Allow me to remind you again that I was not quoting opinions or information from any journalist from P.M. I simply quoted an experienced crash scene investigator.

Please provide a source that refutes his statement .




That's not true. You used a 911 Truther Site that used main stream media as references:

The following is the link you posted in one paragraph referenced 5/b] different news medias.
www.historycommons.org...


I showed you that the story was not accurate (regarding Ed Felt). This was shown by posting an interview with the actual 911 operator and an interview with Gordon Felt. (Edwards brother.)

Repeating the Question....again.
You made a claim of a 2nd debris field. I asked you a couple days ago to please tell me what type of debris were found in the debris field. Then please explain how this fits into your shoot down theory.

Thank you.

Well since we do not have all the information how can you state it was not shot down?




What physical evidence? I am still waitng to see any posted.




I can post things from the FAA, FBI or NTSB, but they have not released most of the evidence. In fact they refuse to release serial numbers to match parts found.

That's not true. You used a 911 Truther Site that used main stream media as references:



And i have showed you that most of your clams are not accurate.



And i showed a diagram and a source for information on the 2 debris fields.

If you like i will post more sources later.

This debate is now off to the judges...

reply to post by MemoryShock

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I was just about to do my closing statement

Yes i did not get a chance to do my closing statement with new evidence.

reply to post by ULTIMA1

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We should have followed the directions. Our fault.

You guys really should start u2u'ing me, as the Debate Forum is for structured argument only (accept for The Fight Club).

If I receive a u2u from each of you requesting a sixth post for Closing Arguments, I will grant it.

By majority decision, this debate goes to....ThroatYogurt!

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