Challenge Match: ThroatYogurt vs ULTIMA1: The Official Story on Flight 93, page 1

Thank you MemoryShock for the opportunity to use this forum to show the Flight 93 did in fact crash in Shanksville on September 11th, 2001.Members of ATS that frequent the 911 Conspiracy boards know the passion I have to set the story straight regarding the event for that day.

Why so passionate about this event? The passengers all knew of their fate after speaking with loved ones. They sat in that plane looking their killers in the eye. I can not fathom the fear that they had. Unlike the other 3 planes, the 33 passengers and 7 crew members on Flight 93 knew the rules. Their plane was late leaving the airport allowing them to learn from loved ones that planes were being flown into buildings. They did what they could to save themselves and possibly others.

Introduction

Facts of Flight 93

1- The Hijackers:All four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names One hijacker was selected for and passed an additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators.

2- The Phone CallsThere were many passengers and crew who called from the plane, spoke with family members, and told of the hijacking. They family members were also told of the plans they had to stop the hijackers. All but two of these calls were made using the planes' Airfones.

3- The CVR(Cockpit Voice Recorder)

Recorded several things:
*the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant
* a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board
* the sounds of the attempts by the passengers to gain entry.
* the hijackers decision to crash the plane in the ground
* the hijackers shouted "Allahu Akbar!" = ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed

4- Radar
Flight 93 was the only plane out of all 4 that was tracked by radar through the entire flight.

5- Witness Statements:
Many people in Pennsylvania witnessed the Boeing 757.They stated it was:

* traveling at low altitude and
*high speed,
*roll to the right and plummet upside-down,
*nose first, towards the ground.
*many witnessed the inredible explosion and fireball.
*local real-estate broker Val McClatchey photographed the mushroom cloud.

6-First Reposnders
Hundreds of first responders and crime scene investigators were quickly on the scene. Most of the firefighters that were on the scene were volunteer firemen.They saw:
* human remains
* aircraft wreckage
* personal effects*
* jet fuel

7- Crash Scene Workers

The crash scene had many workers including:
* 8 Police Departments
* 7 EMS Services
* 8 Fire Departments
*10 Emergency Management Agencies
* NTSB
* ATF
*FBI *CISM
* The Red Cross
*United Airlines


7- DNA Evidence

The remains of every victim was positively identified. This was done via DNA testing or by fingerprints and dental records.
Link

8- Personal Belongings
Personal effects of most passengers and crew were recovered and returned to their families.
link

I would like to start off by stating i am doing this to get more people to do research and search for facts and evidence instead of just going by what they have been told about what happened that day.

I have been doing a lot of research using government and professional research sites and sources. From my research i have found evidence that not only questions the official story but shows reasonable doubt about the official story. Evidence would suggest that Flight 93 was shot down to keep it from getting to its target.

1. As far as the FDR and CVR they were sequestered by the FBI to maintain completecontrol. 911research.wtc7.net...

2. There are 2 distinct and different debris fields a distance away from the crash site tat was too far for wind to blow for both fields.

3. There was a large piece of engine core found a distance away from the crash site, neither the wind, explosion, or bounce properly explains how this piece of engine could get that distance away from the crash site.

4. There are many eyewitness accounts of other aircraft in the area.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
1. As far as the FDR and CVR they were sequestered by the FBI to maintain completecontrol.

The Flight Data Recorder

The FBI were the lead investigators for the crash in Shanksville. The FDR was handed over to the NTSB Vehicle Recorders Division on September 13, 2001.

The SSFDR (Solid State Flight Data Recorder) was examined by the NTSB. They determined that the recorder and memory board were found to have damage. Since the amount of the damage was not known, the FDR was taken to the manufactures facility in Redman, Washington. The data was extracted at the Honeywell facility and electronically transfered to the NTSB headquarters.

The transcribed data were then processed by the (RAPS) "Recover Analysis and Presentation Systems" at NTSB headquarters. There, they converted the data into graphic and tabular forms. The examination of the data showed that the recorder operated normally.

The following link will take you to photographs of the recorder and memory board recovered from the crash scene. It also explains in detail how information was translated. In addition is all the graphs etc.

www.gwu.edu...

the Cockpit Voice Recorder

The CVR was found a day after the FDR was found at a depth of approx. 25 ft inside the ground. Presented as evidence at the Moussaoui as evidence, the entire transcript can be found here:

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

As posted in my opening statement the following was learned by the CVR:
*the hijackers' attack and apparent murder of the pilots and a flight attendant
* a radio transmission by a man with an Arabic accent, warning of a bomb on board
* the sounds of the attempts by the passengers to gain entry.
* the hijackers decision to crash the plane in the ground
* the hijackers shouted "Allahu Akbar!" = ("God is greatest.") until the plane crashed

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
2. There are 2 distinct and different debris fields a distance away from the crash site tat was too far for wind to blow for both fields.

The Debris Fields

While I don't agree with the "2 Distinct" debris fields, there were reports of debris 8 miles away in New Baltimore, PA. There were also debris in Indian Lake that was 2 1/2 miles away. Below please find a diagram of where debris were found.

I have to 100% agree that the debris that was found 8 miles away was clearly different from what was recovered close to the crash site. I have to 100% disagree that the debris field was too far away as Ultima1 states above.

FBI Special Agent Bill Crowley said experts from the National Transportation Safety Board had checked weather reports and concluded that lightweight materials traveled in the 11 MPH wind.

"The NTSB says it is not only plausible, but probable,"

-Bill Crowley.
www.flight93crash.com...

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
3. There was a large piece of engine core found a distance away from the crash site, neither the wind, explosion, or bounce properly explains how this piece of engine could get that distance away from the crash site.

This statement is not backed up by any professional analysis. Ultima is clearly posting his opinion. As I have shown in the past, Michael K. Hynes an airline accident expert states that this was not unusual:

"It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards."

www.popularmechanics.com...

Originally posted by ULTIMA14. There are many eyewitness accounts of other aircraft in the area.

Yes there were 2 other aircrafts in the area around the time if the crash. This too was explained back around September 16th 2001.

There was a Fairchild Falcon 20 business jet, operated by Yates Caldwell that was directed to the crash site to help rescuers. The request for the jet to fly low and obtain the location for the crash, explains reports by the people who said a white or silver jet flew by a short time after Flight 93 crashed.

There was also a A C-130 military cargo plane that was within 25 miles of the Flight 93 when it crashed. This was confirmed by FBI agent Crowley.


Question I would like to present to Ultima1:

Since you are leaning toward the shoot down theory:

- Several family members stayed on the line up until Flight 93 crashed, how come there were not any victims family members describing explosions?

I realize I can post more questions, I would like one answered at a time.

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt

The Flight Data Recorder

The FBI were the lead investigators for the crash in Shanksville. The FDR was handed over to the NTSB Vehicle Recorders Division on September 13, 2001.

The FDR and CVR they were sequestered by the FBI to maintain completecontrol.

911research.wtc7.net...

A source close to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) who asked to remain anonymous when asked about the " ongoing [black box] investigation, " told us that "the NTSB never closely examined the cockpit voice recorders (CVRs) and flight data recorders (FDRs) recovered from American Flight 77 which hit the Pentagon, and United flight 93 which crashed in Pennsylvania.

The source added that “the [CVR and FDR]tapes were sequestered by the FBI and quickly taken to its Quantico, Virginia labs where analysis was conducted solely under the Bureau’s influence in order to maintain complete control.” However, according to the individual with knowledge of the investigation, “there were a few NTSB officials allowed to observe, but their influence on the probe and tape inspection was minimal at best.”

The SSFDR (Solid State Flight Data Recorder) was examined by the NTSB. They determined that the recorder and memory board were found to have damage. Since the amount of the damage was not known, the FDR was taken to the manufactures facility in Redman, Washington. The data was extracted at the Honeywell facility and electronically transfered to the NTSB headquarters.

911research.wtc7.net...

As a matter of fact, ABC news reported on 9-13-2001 that “Although investigators look for an entire black box, sometimes the only parts of the device that survive are the recorder’s crash-survivable memory units (CSMU). The CSMU is almost indestructible. [A former NTSB source told us that only a direct hit from a nuclear blast can destroy it] ABC also said that “it is housed within a stainless-steel shell that contains titanium or aluminum and a high-temperature insulation of dry silica material.”

The CVR was found a day after the FDR was found at a depth of approx. 25 ft inside the ground. Presented as evidence at the Moussaoui as evidence, the entire transcript can be found here:

The question remains how were the black bosxes found but nothing of the tail section that would have survived. Like the heavy steel actuators and all the Tungsten counterweights.

While I don't agree with the "2 Distinct" debris fields, there were reports of debris 8 miles away in New Baltimore, PA. There were also debris in Indian Lake that was 2 1/2 miles away. Below please find a diagram of where debris were found.

See the following dagram that shows 2 distinct debris fields.

911research.wtc7.net...


Question I would like to present to Ultima1:

Since you are leaning toward the shoot down theory:

- Several family members stayed on the line up until Flight 93 crashed, how come there were not any victims family members describing explosions?

Well this witness did state on the phone about smoke and an explosion.

www.historycommons.org...
9:58 a.m. September 11, 2001: Passenger Ed Felt Said to Describe Explosion and White Smoke from Bathroom Call
Edward Felt. [Source: Family photo]A man dials emergency 9-1-1 from a bathroom on the plane, crying, “We’re being hijacked, We’re being hijacked!” [Toronto Sun, 9/16/2001] The operator reports, “He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him.” [ABC News, 9/11/2001; ABC News, 9/11/2001; Associated Press, 9/12/2001] One minute after the call begins, the line goes dead. [Pittsburgh Channel, 12/6/2001] Investigators believe this was Edward Felt, the only passenger not accounted for on phone calls. He was sitting in first class, so he probably was in the bathroom near the front of the plane. At one point, he appears to have peeked out the bathroom door during the call. [Longman, 2002, pp. 193-194, 196] The mentions of smoke and explosions on the recording of his call are now denied. [Longman, 2002, pp. 264] The person who took Felt’s call is not allowed to speak to the media. [Mirror, 9/12/2002]
Entity Tags: Edward Felt
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
The FDR and CVR they were sequestered by the FBI to maintain completecontrol.

911research.wtc7.net...

A source close to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) who asked to remain anonymous when asked about the " ongoing [black box] investigation, " told us that "the NTSB never closely examined the cockpit voice recorders (CVRs) and flight data recorders (FDRs) recovered from American Flight 77 which hit the Pentagon, and United flight 93 which crashed in Pennsylvania.

First of all, you are quoting an anonymous source. There is no way to confirm this statement.

The following is a substantial amount of information from the NTSB regarding the FDR. I find the quote from the anonymous source highly disingenuous.

Flight Data Report from flight 93:
www.ntsb.gov...

ATS Report Flight 93:
www.ntsb.gov...

Flight Path Study United Airlines Flight 93
www.ntsb.gov...

Recorded Radar Data Study all Four Aircraft
www.ntsb.gov...

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
The source added that “the [CVR and FDR]tapes were sequestered by the FBI and quickly taken to its Quantico, Virginia labs where analysis was conducted solely under the Bureau’s influence in order to maintain complete control.” However, according to the individual with knowledge of the investigation, “there were a few NTSB officials allowed to observe, but their influence on the probe and tape inspection was minimal at best.”

It was shown in my previous post that the NTSB did not only "observe." The NTSB were key in the entire data collection process and the Recover Analysis and Presentation Systems was done by the NTSB. This fact is not refuted by anything you have presented.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
911research.wtc7.net...

As a matter of fact, ABC news reported on 9-13-2001 that “Although investigators look for an entire black box, sometimes the only parts of the device that survive are the recorder’s crash-survivable memory units (CSMU). The CSMU is almost indestructible. [A former NTSB source told us that only a direct hit from a nuclear blast can destroy it] ABC also said that “it is housed within a stainless-steel shell that contains titanium or aluminum and a high-temperature insulation of dry silica material.”

As I have shown in my previous post, the CVR was found in relatively good shape and very important data was recovered by it. (as shown as evidence in the Moussaoui trial)

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
The question remains how were the black bosxes found but nothing of the tail section that would have survived. Like the heavy steel actuators and all the Tungsten counterweights.

Why are you asking the question? You answered it yourself above. "The CSMU is almost indestructible. "

We don't know if the counterweights are still buried in the ground, or what happened to them. Although there were not many large pieces of the aircraft recovered, it is possible that they were destroyed into much smaller pieces. Of all the investigators present at the scene, exactly zero have stated that the crash scene and debris were inconsistent with the type of crash that occurred.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

See the following dagram that shows 2 distinct debris fields.

911research.wtc7.net...

I agree that debris was found 8 miles away. As stated by the NTSB, this is what would be expected considering the light weight debris that were found during a day with 11 mph winds.

You have not shown any evidence to show that this was not possible. Your diagram shows a drawing with two circles. There is nothing to back this up. I showed you three different areas where debris were found. I can show you more if you so desire.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Well this witness did state on the phone about smoke and an explosion.

www.historycommons.org...
9:58 a.m. September 11, 2001: Passenger Ed Felt Said to Describe Explosion and White Smoke from Bathroom Call
Edward Felt. [Source: Family photo]A man dials emergency 9-1-1 from a bathroom on the plane, crying, “We’re being hijacked, We’re being hijacked!” [Toronto Sun, 9/16/2001] The operator reports, “He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him.” [ABC News, 9/11/2001; ABC News, 9/11/2001; Associated Press, 9/12/2001] One minute after the call begins, the line goes dead. [Pittsburgh Channel, 12/6/2001] Investigators believe this was Edward Felt, the only passenger not accounted for on phone calls. He was sitting in first class, so he probably was in the bathroom near the front of the plane. At one point, he appears to have peeked out the bathroom door during the call. [Longman, 2002, pp. 193-194, 196] The mentions of smoke and explosions on the recording of his call are now denied. [Longman, 2002, pp. 264] The person who took Felt’s call is not allowed to speak to the media. [Mirror, 9/12/2002]
Entity Tags: Edward Felt
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline

This call is often mentioned by CT'ers. The operator did not state Mr. Felt heard an explosion. The call was placed to the Westmoreland County 911 Emergency switchboard, and in one version of the story, Felt is said to have heard an explosion and seen white smoke in the plane. There are numerous sources that say Felt did not mention an explosion or smoke, including Felt's family, who heard the recording of his phone call. The incorrect story apparently originated with Glenn Cramer who did not even take the call.

Edward Felts younger brother Gordon:

"There was no mention of white smoke or an explosion." Also, the dispatcher who took the call, John Shaw, confirmed that Felt had mentioned neither bomb nor white smoke. "It never happened," he stated".

web.archive.org...://www.pittsburghpulp.com/content/2002/11_28/news_cover_story.shtml

“A male passenger, Edward Felt, did call from the bathroom of the plane, but never mentioned an explosion or puff of smoke, said John Shaw, the dispatcher who took the call. “Didn't happen,” he said. Felt's wife, who heard a tape of the call, corroborated Shaw's story.”

-(Among the Heroes, p. 369) (New York Times, 3/27/02)

John Shaw: Received a call from Flight 93

Wednesday, September 11, 2002
It was from Edward Felt of Newark, N.J., a passenger using a cell phone aboard United Flight 93. "Terrified" was the only way to describe Felt, the 29-year-old Shaw said.

www.post-gazette.com...


Second Question to Ultima

You have stated there were two distinct debris fields. I have proven this to be false. There were debris found in several areas in the direction of the wind. What debris at the 8 mile point do you claim was recovered that supports the theory that Flight 93 was shot down?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1


But i was a crew chief in the Air Force and know what parts are made out of and what will survive. I was also trained on crash recovery.

How many crashes have you investigated?

Again, not one investigator that was at the crash site (many with more experience with you) has stated that the crash site and debris were inconsistent with the crash of flight 93.

We don't have a list of everything that was found. We don't have a list of what was not found.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Too bad none of those photos of parts have a source with information from the FBI or NTSB that they match Flight 93. Also you do know that the FBI is the lead investigating agency, the NTSB is just there for technical assistance.

1- As I showed above, Flight 93 was tracked on radar throughout the entire flight. There is no question as to what plane crashed in Shanksville.

2- All the physical evidence proves what plane crashed there and who was on that plane.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
As stated eyewitness accounts do not make good evidence unless you have reports and evidence to support them.

People that lived down wind from the impact point found debris and the debris was collected by the FBI and other officials:

WTAE's Jim Parsons reported Wednesday that debris had been found miles off-site and removed. State Police Maj. Lyle Szupinka confirmed Thursday that debris had been discovered in the residential community of Indian Lake northeast of the central crash site.

www.thepittsburghchannel.com...

A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene.

www.cnn.com...

(please note that you claimed a second debris field was 8 miles away this shows at least three now...my point is that there were many debris fields as this article was posted early in the investigation.)

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
The 9/11 commission hired NIST to do reports for them.

I am not saying this is not true, please source this. I was unable to find any reports from NIST in regards to flight 93.

I skimmed the 911 Report, NIST Pages, typical google searches. The only reference was to the animated flight data that Killtown presented as NIST animation when in fact it was created by the NTSB.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Popular Mechanics has been debunked many times and long ago. Also they are not a legal or legit investigating agency for 9/11.

What legal or "legit" 911 investigating agency have you sourced in this debate???

You can't wave your hand and claim they were debunked. Allow me to remind you again that I was not quoting opinions or information from any journalist from P.M. I simply quoted an experienced crash scene investigator.

Please provide a source that refutes his statement .

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
I only use media reports if it has been confirmed through other sources.

That's not true. You used a 911 Truther Site that used main stream media as references:

The following is the link you posted in one paragraph referenced 5/b] different news medias.
www.historycommons.org...


I showed you that the story was not accurate (regarding Ed Felt). This was shown by posting an interview with the actual 911 operator and an interview with Gordon Felt. (Edwards brother.)

Repeating the Question....again.
You made a claim of a 2nd debris field. I asked you a couple days ago to please tell me what type of debris were found in the debris field. Then please explain how this fits into your shoot down theory.

Thank you.

reply to post by MemoryShock

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I was just about to do my closing statement

reply to post by ULTIMA1

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We should have followed the directions. Our fault.