Iraq Unloading WMD Into Syria.

Good point, you didn't mention Bush. I assumed it would lead to that and we all know what they say about assuming. It made an ass of me

I still tend to think that this is good info though. I tend to think that there were WMD and then that means they would have been moved. I just hope that they wont be said to have been planted if they are found. I would be willing to bet that most people in the US thought that Iraq had WMD before it had been brought up as a reason for war. Many Americans, people in general, have short attention spans and aren't willing to see things through.

Don't trip Mandalorianwarrior. You pulled my card, I don't like Bush and I am anti-war.

Still, Bashar Assad is west friendly--he doesn't hate us. If Syria can change on its own then I think we should allow that to happen. The last thing we need is to be led into another nation building exercise on speculation. Its deadly, costly, and for the most part unbenefical.

I hope our forces don't have to go into Syria as well. I'm just not sure they can change on their own due to the environment in which they exist. I'm guessing we'll have to go in if their is enough evidence to suggest they have the WMD. I'm not sure if they would ever fess up. It would be a HUGE step if they did. Of course we should give them time to change but how much time is the question? Give them to much time and those WMD may be used or never be found.

We would need more proof and who wants to lose any soldiers, especially based on speculation. I just wonder if our intel knows more on this that would change our speculation into proof. I think along the lines of Agent 47 and would be willing to bet Syria might have some WMD.

Maybe Syria has WMD but they are not a threat to the US. I think a very productive step for Bashar would be to allow inspectors in without being asked by the UN. He man do this eventually. There is just too much evidence pointing to Bashar as a good guy. He just has to keep trying to build bridges.

I guess I want Perle's resignation to really mean more than it probably does. He was really pushing for regime change in Syria, and now he's sort of gone I'm hoping that Bush will prove himself to be an independant thinker by abandoning the neoconmen agenda and really focusing on what's best for the US and the World.

Originally posted by Savatage
If this is true, how come we haven't put Syria on the spot and asked them to allow inspections of these areas?

It could be that several pressure points could cause Syria to be the owner of the largest military cache in the region, from many other Middle Eastern countries.

And if one were to wish Syria to be 'The' central power for the region....maybe becouse of a prior 'agreement' with another powerful country,...it could be done.

Originally posted by Saphronia
All of this is speculation. There is no proof. I have one question that might shed some light on this so called Syria connection--why did they expell Uday and Qusay if Iraq was giving them WMD? Wouldn't this create a climate of, you scatch my back-I'll scratch your's. It seems Syria was a shady friend to send them back to be killed if Iraq was willingly giving them all of their WMD stock piles--you guys are reaching.

Also, the Syrian leader is a young one who was schooled in the west. He's opened the door for peace talks with Israel. He wants normalization with US. We reject him because of our ties to Israel. Even as he talks of peace Sharon seeks to expand settlements in the Golan Heights. If given a chance Bashar Assad could drastically change the policies of his father, but he's been met with powerful resistance from Israel and neoconmen in the US.

Diplomacy: Assad holds out a hand

Many of the most dangerous individuals in history were schooled in the west, that doesnt mean they are any less radical.

The State Department has been increasingly adamant in its denouncement of the Baath dictatorship's human-rights violations and recently published a report finding Syria guilty of committing such "serious abuses" as arbitrary arrest and torture, making "enemies of the state" disappear, exiling reform-minded oppositionists, exercising total state control over the media, denying fair trials, not holding free elections, and refusing to recognize the rights of ethnic and religious minorities. In essence, the world's last Baathist regime was called out by the American government for what it really is: A brutally outdated Stalinist murder-machine that would just as well rule over a land of corpses rather than allow some measure of dignity and liberty to the Syrian people.

We are living in an age where the West (America in particular) has finally wised up to the folly of attempting to see, hear, and speak no evil when it comes to the machinations of manic terror states in the Middle East and in Asia. It has become painfully clear that one cannot coddle despotic regimes whose megalomania knows no bounds and which are incapable of maintaining an ounce of respect for human life.

The Baath have literally been getting away with murder and terror for the past three decades, but Saddam's time of reckoning eventually came, Khaddafi capitulated, and the plutonium-addicted Iranian mullahs cannot seem to get their house in order in the face of student opposition. The political and social milieu of the Middle East is slowly but surely changing in a radical way. Bashar Assad in Syria is now poised to rule a hermit kingdom isolated from both reality and the rest of the world � punished and ostracized for its obstinate clinging to a discredited past.

Oops Heres the Link.

Outing Baathists

[Edited on 17-3-2004 by Agent47]

Originally posted by Saphronia
Maybe Syria has WMD but they are not a threat to the US. I think a very productive step for Bashar would be to allow inspectors in without being asked by the UN. He man do this eventually. There is just too much evidence pointing to Bashar as a good guy. He just has to keep trying to build bridges.

.

True if Syria has WMD it is unlikely it will wind up on American shores but that doesnt mean it may not end up on Israel, Kuwait or even Syria itself. Furthermore if Bashar is such a "good guy" then why does he allow hundreds of foreign fighters to slip through border control and into Iraq where they commit acts of terrorism and unwarranted harrassment of not only soldiers but civillians and western missionaries. You probably said that Saddam would lay down his WMD if the UN asked him but woops, that turned out to fall flat. The UN is not the political body all whom bear an anti war agenda want it to be.


This is a country that has been under martial law since 1964, its not a friendly arab neighbor, its a powder keg. If Bashar is such a friendly guy Then Why is Southern Lebannon still under Syrian occupation

If your truly an advocate of self determination and a believer in Bashars "innocence", then why are the Syrian Kurds and people of S. Lebannon still under Syrian rule?!

[Edited on 17-3-2004 by Agent47]

Well it would appear that State not only has investigated reports of the Syria/Iraq WMD transfer but they have sought to ask Syria about the incident. If you felt that Saprhonia's comments concerning Assad were true then this report may open your eyes a little.

Referring to press reports that Iraq covertly transferred weapons of mass destruction to Syria in an attempt to hide them from U.N. inspectors, Bolton said the United States sees the reports "as cause for concern," but has thus far been unable to confirm them. "We are continuing ... to seek conclusive evidence," he said, and have raised the issue with the Syrians "on numerous occasions."

Bolton said the United States is concerned about Syria's nuclear research and development program and continues to watch for any signs of nuclear weapons activity. He noted that Syria has not yet signed the International Atomic Energy Agency's Additional Protocol, which strengthens the IAEA's investigative powers to verify compliance with nuclear safeguards, adding: "We believe the Additional Protocol should be a new minimal standard for countries to demonstrate their nonproliferation bona fides."

He said Syria has "one of the most advanced Arab state chemical weapons capabilities" and is continuing to develop an offensive biological weapons capability. In addition, Syria has "a combined total of several hundred Scud and SS-21 SRBMs [short-range ballistic missiles], and is believed to have chemical warheads available for a portion of its Scud missile force."

State Department Statement

Now why would a nice guy need this much ordanance? Why would a country whos only continous military operation is the occupation of S. Lebannon, need such a sizeable stockpile of terror weapons?




2002 eh? Wouldnt Assad be reforming Syria at this time? If your task is to rebuild your shattered nation then why are you building new stockpiles of weapons?





These forced-air cooling towers also indicate the presence of an industrial process requiring the disposal of waste heat. Chemical processes for nerve agents produce highly unstable intermediates that react explosively with water. Steam-heating and water cooling must be replaced with special heat-exchange fluids and heating oils that require the use of cooling towers rather than steam vents

So I have to ask just one last time, how is Assad our buddy again? Or besides that, how is Syria a good neighbor if it is actively replenishing its WMD program?

Picture Links

I'm not concerned with Israel. They are capable of taking care of themselves. A threat to Israel is not a threat to the US. So I won't even address equating Israeli security concerns with the US' sercurity concerns.

Let's deal in fact instead of accusations and assumptions.

Borders: No border is completely secure. There are fighters coming in from all side--the Iranian border and the Saudi border as well. The Syrians are attempting to help even though they didn't support the war in Iraq.
link

In the above link the Bushies praise Syria's cooperation. The terrorist haven't had a haven in Syria some were born there or travel there to get into Iraq. To blame Bashar for terrorist coming into Iraq is the same as folk blaming Bush for illegals coming into the US. You can't completely close a border.

The occupation of Lebanon: Its welcomed by the Lebanonese. They have friendly relations with Syria and the miltia group Hezballah. The Syrian ambassador to the US appeared on Washington Journal last year and spoke to this issue.
link to video video "Imad Mustafah, Acting Syrian ambassador to the US" about 30 min long.

Human Rights abuses: Assad has slowly opened up his country and even allowed pro-democracy rallies to take place. He's opened internet cafe's and allowed the first independant press in Syria. He alsor released hundreds of political prisoners. But, this is a process and nothing is going to happen overnight. No, he's not Mr. Perfect and his father's rule is still haunting. How does this mean he's planning to bomb the US and needs to be overthrown?

Assad our buddy: I never said he shouldn't be watched carefully or that he didn't have WMD. He appears to be a moderate along the lines of Abullah of Jordan. He isn't a threat to the US. The fact: He has never threaten the US. He isn't a terrorist. He's offered support in the war on terror and the war in Iraq. He's offered to sit down and have peace talks with Israel. There is no link to him and Alqaida.

Foound this 'ancient' article somewhat fascinating....not for the "denial", but for what it indicates about Iraq:
Syria denies hiding Iraqi weapons

Excerpt:

"On December 7 Iraq delivered to U.N. weapons inspectors 11,000 pages of what Baghdad said were details of its weapons of mass destruction programs and possible facilities that might be used to develop them.

U.N. Resolution 1441 -- passed unanimously by the U.N. Security Council on November 8 -- demanded the Iraqi documents be handed over by December 8.

The resolution also called on Iraq to abide by all the U.N. resolutions that Iraq promised to follow in a cease-fire agreement reached after it lost the 1991 Persian Gulf War."


And maybe this will help further discussion of your hypothesis?
Saddam's Syrian Stash


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Saphronia
Let's deal in fact instead of accusations and assumptions.

The occupation of Lebanon: Its welcomed by the Lebanonese. They have friendly relations with Syria and the miltia group Hezballah. The Syrian ambassador to the US appeared on Washington Journal last year and spoke to this issue.
link to video video "Imad Mustafah, Acting Syrian ambassador to the US" about 30 min long.

This has to be the most dilluted argument of the thread. You made a decent argument for why Syria is not a threat, a decent argument for why Syria doesnt have Iraq's WMD, but your insitance upon clutching onto the theory that Syria is some sort of Middle East savior is repugnant. I am very capable of admitting an injustice in the world but some of my esteemed colleagues seem not to have this quality. The people of Lebanon hate the Syrian presence, and when they protest they are vicously silenced.

A Lebanese student raises a picture November 26, 2001 of a colleague who was beaten and arrested by security policemen during a demonstration in Beirut last August. Around 1000 students at the University of Beirut held a sit-in on campus, as several universities in Lebanon held strikes to protest a police raid on a university last week. Policemen last week cracked down on students preparing an Independence Day protest against the presence of Syrian army troops in Lebanon. Syria invaded Lebanon in 1976 and still maintains some 30,000 troops there.

If they Lebanese people love Syrian occupation then why has Syria felt it necessary to continue to occupy it with 30,000 troops?

Now my evidence for why your claims are fraudulent may seem neglible seeing as 1000 students are not that many but the number grows. Many leftist groups in Lebanon oppose Syrian occupation Seeing as many of your posts seem to have a leftist slant I find it amazing you would not agree with your international associates. The people of Lebanon need to be free and want to be free.

Instead of celebrating Independence Day, students across the country chose to mourn it.

More than 5,000 supporters of the Free National Current (FNC) and various leftist groups assembled near the National Museum on November 22, claiming that the country's sovereignty and independence were being abused by Syria and its cronies.

Chanting anti-Syrian slogans, university and high school students descended onto the Museum Road amid stringent security measures and a massive presence of security forces, including intelligence agents who were easily discernible with cellular phones glued to their ears, to report on demonstrators. But no clashes took place, possibly as a result of Interior Minister Elias Murr's strict instructions to the Internal Security Forces to "treat the students with respect, and avoid the use of force, except if there's a threat to the security of citizens."

Fady Abou-Jamra, student activities coordinator for the FNC, said that pressure was not restricted to the several checkpoints that were erected along the roads leading to the Museum Road. "University and school administrators were threatened against shutting down their schools," he said. "They were also forced to keep their students within campuses, thus preventing them from taking part in the protest."

Once again, if Lebanon welcomes Syrian occupation then why are so many people threatened by Syrian security forces when they attempt to speak out against it?

Leftist Protests


Lebanese Independence Movement Photo Journal



[Edited on 21-3-2004 by Agent47]

Originally posted by Saphronia
Let's deal in fact instead of accusations and assumptions.

Human Rights abuses: Assad has slowly opened up his country and even allowed pro-democracy rallies to take place. He's opened internet cafe's and allowed the first independant press in Syria. He alsor released hundreds of political prisoners. But, this is a process and nothing is going to happen overnight. No, he's not Mr. Perfect and his father's rule is still haunting. How does this mean he's planning to bomb the US and needs to be overthrown?

Well what a suprise, another dilluted argument that has been directly discredited by current events.

The disparate ruling groups in Syria, Turkey, and Iran all feel threatened by stirrings of Kurdish assertiveness in Iraq. The killing of more than 30 Kurds in confrontations with Syrian police over the past week -- the outcome of swiftly repressed Kurdish protests in Syrian towns and cities -- does not compare in scale with the killing and ethnic cleansing of Kurds in Saddam Hussein's Iraq or in neighboring Turkey. Nevertheless, the underlying pathology behind those crimes against humanity was also on display in the behavior of Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime.

The violent measures taken against Kurds in Damascus and Aleppo who dared to protest earlier killings of Kurds in predominantly Kurdish towns along Syria's northern border with Turkey reflect the Assad regime's intolerance of free speech and political pluralism. But something else is also revealed in the response of the Syrian Ba'athists.

Like their counterparts in Turkey and Iran, Syria's rulers appear panicked by the precedent of 4 million Iraqi Kurds being guaranteed a high degree of cultural and political autonomy in an interim Iraqi constitution. The very idea that this constitution would enshrine the Kurdish language along with Arabic as one of two official tongues for the new Iraq represents an intolerable threat to the Ba'athists of Syria. They use an Arab nationalist ideology to justify their unbending denial of any separate Kurdish identity.

If Assad is such a progressive reformer then why has he done nothing to curb the violence against the minority Kurds over the last two weeks. The Kurds want freedom that Syria has denied them for year. Then on top of that Syria has condoned blatant violence against Kurds who are protesting peacefully.

Link

Once again, I ask you saphronia, how is Assad a moderate. Look at these pictures and stories and give me one good reason that Assad shouldnt be held responsible for the actions commited under his rule. Syria is a terror state plain and simple.

Ramzi Irani's decomposing body was found in the boot of his own car in a run-down area of hotels and bars in the west of the Beirut on May 20, 2002.

Irani was kidnapped in broad daylight in the canter of Beirut 16:30 local time Tuesday the 7th of May 2002. Irani was a 36-year-old engineer but he was also the Lebanese University representative of the Student Committee of the L F.

Link

[Edited on 23-3-2004 by Agent47]

How can the US invade Syria for an occupation we sanctioned? Answer that.

And, how can you accuse me of making a "dilluted argument" about the occupation of Lebanon when you offer no background on why Syria is even in Lebanon? Lebanon was a wreck, and we, meaning the US, along with the Arab league allowed Syria to go in and bring about peace. Surely, Lebanon deserves their freedom and sovereignty, but at what cost? No one, not even the Lebanonese government supports a complete turn over by Syria at this time.

Look I'll help you. The biggest problem with the Syrian occupation is the so called "terrorist group" Hezballah. Syria's support for them is the only reason this occupation is coming under attack right now. Again I will not address any issues that attempt to link US sercurity concerns with Israel's sercurity concerns.

Well what a suprise, another dilluted argument that has been directly discredited by current events.

Are you kidding me with the Kurdish arguments? They have been uprising since they lost their homeland. It is no different in Syria than it is in Turkey. You can put your spin on either. If the Kurds want rights then they'll have to be Syrian. They have no homeland. They just won't accept it. This "uprising" was a game turned riot. The Syrians had to restore order. Your link is an editiorial that is way off the mark.

The unrest began in the mainly Kurdish town of Qamishli where fans of an Arab team taunted fans of a largely Kurdish team by waving pictures of Saddam Hussein.

link

Anyway Kurds in Syria is a internal problem. So let's go in because minority rule is important.

Terror under Bashar

The link you provided was laughable, and not because of the bloody bodies (which was sad to say the least) but because it was sooooo not creditable. Give me a break. Give me some facts to work with not the typical spin.

My position is that Syria won't be changed in a day no matter how moderate Assad is or isn't. With that said, Assad isn't a gun-blazing-Islamic-fundie at heart. He has never spoke one word that would lead anyone to believe this. Syria is not a threat to the US, and nothing you've posted negates that fact.

Originally posted by Saphronia
How can the US invade Syria for an occupation we sanctioned? Answer that.

And, how can you accuse me of making a "dilluted argument" about the occupation of Lebanon when you offer no background on why Syria is even in Lebanon? Lebanon was a wreck, and we, meaning the US, along with the Arab league allowed Syria to go in and bring about peace. Surely, Lebanon deserves their freedom and sovereignty, but at what cost? No one, not even the Lebanonese government supports a complete turn over by Syria at this time.

Look I'll help you. The biggest problem with the Syrian occupation is the so called "terrorist group" Hezballah. Syria's support for them is the only reason this occupation is coming under attack right now. Again I will not address any issues that attempt to link US sercurity concerns with Israel's sercurity concerns.

What? What!? How is "Hezzbollah" not a terrorist group?

Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against America, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include:

a series of kidnappings of Westerners, including several Americans, in the 1980s;
the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983;
the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane's pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head;
and two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina�the 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy (killing 29) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing 95).

Explain that away

How can the US invade Syria for an occupation we sanctioned? Answer that.

As I remember my history, Syria was acting out of its own interests.

As Lebanese Front fortunes declined, two outcomes seemed likely: the establishment in Mount Lebanon of an independent Christian state, viewed as a "second Israel" by some; or, if the Lebanese National Movement won the war, the creation of a radical, hostile state on Syria's western border. Neither of these possibilities was viewed as acceptable to Assad. To prevent either scenario, at the end of May 1976 Syria intervened militarily against the Lebanese National Movement, hoping to end the fighting swiftly. This decision, however, proved ill conceived, as Syrian forces met heavy resistance and suffered many casualties. Moreover, by entering the conflict on the Christian side Syria provoked outrage from much of the Arab world.

Despite, or perhaps as a result of, these military and diplomatic failures, in late July Syria decided to quell the resistance. A drive was launched against Lebanese National Movement strongholds that was far more successful than earlier battles; within two weeks the opposition was almost subdued. Rather than crush the resistance altogether, at this time Syria chose to participate in an Arab peace conference held in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, on October 16, 1976.

Syria's presence in Lebanon was legitimated by the establishment of the Arab Deterrent Force (ADF) by the Arab League in October 1976. In January 1977 the ADF consisted of 30,000 men, of whom 27,000 were Syrian. The remainder were token contingents from Saudi Arabia, the small Persian Gulf states, and Sudan; Libya had withdrawn its small force in late 1976.

Syria acted for Syria and continues to, dont try to pin any blame on America. Well you can try, but use facts, ie Links.





And in response to your theory that Lebannon needs Syria all I have to say is Security Concil resolution 520

Syria is in violation of international law and its time they moved out.

Syrian Invasion

Hezbollah

[Edited on 24-3-2004 by Agent47]

Assad isn't the problem. He was educated here in the UK and is thought to be a pretty progressive leader. The problem lies with the olg guard Ba'athists in his government. His father had them under control but they've been running riot under the more inexperienced son. If Assad puts his foot down too hard he'll have problems as there is a real liklihood that he could be deposed.

Don't expect any handouts from Syria. Assad is more worried about appeasing his own hardliners than he is with his dealings with the West.

Syria is not a threat to the US, and nothing you've posted negates that fact.

So possessing large surplusses of chem weapons in a fragile Baathist country does not pose a threat to anyone, at all.

Just ran across this:
The Bekaa beckons

May it be of interest to you.


seekerof