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“Shock And Awe” In Spain

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posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 04:59 PM
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ZAKARIA: “Shock And Awe” In Spain
Mar 13, 2004
Yamin Zakaria, UK, Published Exclusively By JUS

The indiscriminate killing of any innocent human being is deplorable. If this principle has been truly embraced by the civilized world (West) as they constantly claim, then surely one should expect condemnation of all such crimes. There should be no difference in condemning the murder of the innocent in Spain, Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. Although each nation will exhibit greater sympathy and emotion towards the loss of their own people, the condemnation of like crimes expressed in political terms should be identical.

Terrorist bombs do inflict terror but so do the cruise missiles, JDAMS, and daisy cutters! Does any one know what the civilian casualty figures are in Iraq and Afghanistan? Whatever it is, it is far higher than two hundred or even three thousand. Many would argue they are not victims of terrorism but of a war however the war on Iraq was clearly built upon deliberate lies and a web of deception. This act is much worse than the conventional ‘terrorism’ that took place in Madrid or at the WTC, as the innocents who perished in Iraq were far greater in magnitude. Let us not forget the Iraqis are still being killed each and every week and will continue to suffer from a variety of cancers and all sorts of birth defects from America’s use of depleted uranium during the invasion. .

Follow the link for the rest of the story:

www.jihadunspun.com.../home.php&




posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 05:04 PM
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Provocative indeed

one might even believe the writers sympathies were with the terrorists. Justifiable response is acceptable - and was pre warned - Madrid was not - even the IRA at the height of its powers issued coded warnings. This like 9-11 was preceeded by no warning.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by agent provocateur



Many would argue they are not victims of terrorism but of a war however the war on Iraq was clearly built upon deliberate lies and a web of deception.




The War was built on facts, the WMD are in Syria. It is a proven fact that all those who wish to undermine the moral of those fighting choose to ignore.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 05:21 PM
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And your point to add to the discussion was ?



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 05:49 PM
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will continue to suffer from a variety of cancers and all sorts of birth defects from America’s use of depleted uranium during the invasion. .


Don't forget about their lack of water and hundreds of water born diseases in their drinking water.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 05:50 PM
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I don't understand why some people can't grasp the difference between intentionaly targeting civilians, and unfortunate deaths of innocent people durring wars. If the U.S wanted to simply kill people we would just bomb cities with nerve gas or tactical nuclear weapons. The fact that we spend millions of dollars on missles that can acurately target the enemy has to mean something. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in WW2 due to the saturation bombing of cities, today the civilian deaths in Iraq and Afganistan numberd in the 5,000 range. The difference between us and them is, that the terrorists would use all their available power to kill as many people as possible, while we only target those who are directly responsible.
But of course those who want to see us as evil bastards will keep doing so regardless of the facts.

I don't care what your cause might be, or even how just or right, intentionaly targeting civilians is just plain wrong and it destroys any moral position you might have in a conflict.

If are being repressed and you think violence is nessesary to fight that repression, then be a man and pick up a weapon and take your fight to military. I would rather die fighting an enemy with honor, than living with the knowledge that I intentionaly killed innocent people to prove a point. The only point they prove is that they are cowards.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 05:52 PM
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STOP POSTING FULL NEWS ARTICLES.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by Silk
And your point to add to the discussion was ?


That this is a fraudulent claim that we dethroned a dictator and established democracy on the basis of lies.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 06:00 PM
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If Al-Quieda is supposedly taking responsibility for the attack in Madrid, then why is the Spanish government suspecting that it was actually done at the hands of terrorists from the Baroque country?

A connection, or just al-Quieda trying to keep up hype?



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 06:02 PM
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There are no rules in war.

The less morals you have the more successful you are at completing your mission.

If Spain were my enemy, and i wanted to put my enemy down, I wouldn't warn them about anything i was about to do. I wouldn't care about my enemy one tiny little bit.

I'd try to destroy my enemy as much as humanly possible. Show them the errors of thier ways by destroying them.

Remember that your enemy isn't just the military. It's the whole country...the government, the citizens who support the government too.

No war is human, no war is pretty and no war is covered with a sugar coating. War is deadly, dirty, and disgusting.

If my country got invaded and another became my enemy....They would regret it.

Noone wants to be my enemy

[Edited on 13-3-2004 by DaRAGE]



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 06:24 PM
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Fine take that path if you will, but there is no honor in it, and when the enemy destroys everything you have, kills all that you know honor is the only thing that separates him from you. The nature of war may not always allow you to follow certain rules, but when you can you must.

We have proved that we can fight wars without resorting to mass murder, and vengefull hatred.
If history has taught us anything its that defeating an enemy by trying to wipe him out will never make him stop, it will only make them more ressistant. People with your mentality helped cause WWII by making Germany suffer needlessly for the war. The Post war reconstruction of Europe proved that by helping those that were once enemies we would never again have to fight them. Everything you do in war, will reflect what kind of peace you have. From a purely practical perspective your logic is not valid if you want to achieve anything more than eternal war and suffering for you as well as your enemy.

Finaly if someone invades my country they will regret it too, not because of my brutality, but because of my determination and will to beat them. Because I will make them know what power lies with fighting with honor, and not with cowardness.

[Edited on 13-3-2004 by TheEXone]

[Edited on 13-3-2004 by TheEXone]



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by TheEXone
People with your mentality helped cause WWII by making Germany suffer needlessly for the war. The Post war reconstruction of Europe proved that by helping those that were once enemies we would never again have to fight them.


You do understand that we actively blew up dams and other civilian targets during WW2 regardless if it was necessary or not. You must have to completely break an enemy before you can restore them properly.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 06:36 PM
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Yes, but there is no need for unessesary cruelty. It will only lead to more war later on, because cruety feeds hatred. Thats my point. The tactics you use can vary, but there are time when its clear something is not right, like shooting a group of tied up, blind folded civilians in a ditch.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by TheEXone
Yes, but there is no need for unessesary cruelty. It will only lead to more war later on, because cruety feeds hatred. Thats my point. The tactics you use can vary, but there are time when its clear something is not right, like shooting a group of tied up, blind folded civilians in a ditch.


Theres a whole lot of that going on in the Balkans but those against the war on terrorism are against eliminating the parties guilty of these acts.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 06:52 PM
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Who said I was against the war? Those people are wrong on both counts.

Any group that deliberately kills civilians in order to instill fear and suffering in our fellow human beings must be stopped.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by TheEXone
Who said I was against the war? Those people are wrong on both counts.



Oops my mistake.
Sorry, and I agree.



posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by agent provocateur
www.jihadunspun.com.../home.php&
There is suggestion in this article that the CIA and Mossad could be the ones that orchestrated this attack. I don't blame them.

There is nothing but death in these terrorist acts, and the war attacks by the USA and the UK's forces on Afghanistan and Iraq. Innocent people are dying in these poor countries, too.




posted on Mar, 13 2004 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by TheEXone
Fine take that path if you will, but there is no honor in it, and when the enemy destroys everything you have, kills all that you know honor is the only thing that separates him from you. The nature of war may not always allow you to follow certain rules, but when you can you must.

We have proved that we can fight wars without resorting to mass murder, and vengefull hatred.
If history has taught us anything its that defeating an enemy by trying to wipe him out will never make him stop, it will only make them more ressistant. People with your mentality helped cause WWII by making Germany suffer needlessly for the war. The Post war reconstruction of Europe proved that by helping those that were once enemies we would never again have to fight them. Everything you do in war, will reflect what kind of peace you have. From a purely practical perspective your logic is not valid if you want to achieve anything more than eternal war and suffering for you as well as your enemy.

Finaly if someone invades my country they will regret it too, not because of my brutality, but because of my determination and will to beat them. Because I will make them know what power lies with fighting with honor, and not with cowardness.

[Edited on 13-3-2004 by TheEXone]

[Edited on 13-3-2004 by TheEXone]




There is no honour in war.

I guess that if you were fighting during the American Civil war you would have been one of those red skins from England, dressed up in ya coat with ya rifle, in a line with all ur friends, standing in position on a battlefield, to take ur shot and reload without moving position pretty much.

U would take ur fights to the battlefield and march ur army like pawns on a chessboard.

Me...I would have been with the Militia on the Americans trying to get independence from England...

I would have come up behind ya from out of the bushes and slaughtered u without u even knowing i was there. Going outside the chessboard and quite frankly using my mind to not get myself hurt and to hurt a hell of alot of English folk that I dont want.

The dishonourable tactics won compared to the honourable tactics of the English.


Let me tell you something....

Just say a country invades my country with the military, etc...
How barbaric. Who are they to invade us? Who are they to tell us what we can and cannot do within our country?
Who are they to say that we cant have a nuclear reactor that generates electricity for our population, and then enrich some uranium and make nuclear bombs as a deterrant....to protect ourselves as the country that is invading us has their own stockpiles of Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons. And as they are invading us and dropping radioactive bombs, shells on us and our country that we are going to suffer not for just this war...but for 4.8 billion years to come (DU halflife). Our future babies will suffer...How dare they!!!!

Now why wouldn't I try to get myself over to this foreign country, take out a certain dam, and flood a whole heap of the population that is supporting the government, the country that is invading ours? Can I not create Catastrophy after Catastrophy on thier own soil, to try and get them to bring back thier military units out of my country and fix thier own?

Their population is supporting a terrible Regime...a regime that would do this to us, invade our country...use WMD (DU ammunition) on us while saying that we have WMD!!!
That population needs to change their minds, get their government to stop the war against us and our people.


I could create trucks full of fertilizer bombs, to spread terror throughout their cities, throughout their people, make them see that they shouldn't be invading other countries, show them that it is wrong, barbaric, and they shouldn't interfere with us, with our country, and maybe they will think twice...it will make thier citizens, the population of that country change their views and thoughts about invading another country, interferring with thier business and telling them what they can and cannot do.

They terrorize us with cruise missiles...I will terrorise them with fertilizer bombs.

-spoken from a "terrorists" point of view...or maybe a "freedom fighter"...

the point is...War is War. It is ugly, damn right dirty. People have their own views, opinions, beliefs.

another point...

It's not just the military of the opponent you have to destroy...you have to destroy the regime, and stop the regime from getting new recruits happy to go to war and invade your country. You must break the whole country and get ur point across to them and make them see ur side more than they see thier side. Change their minds about the war. Tell them that this war, them invading u is the reason why thier friends are dying...maybe enough will listen and think it is wrong...

and thats' spoken from a defenders point of view.



posted on Mar, 14 2004 @ 02:17 PM
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First off, American civil war? and Red skins from England?
American Militia? its Red coats, and it seems you have your wars confused. The American Militia fought exacly how every other army durring that time fought, with strict battlefield formations. What you are desrcibing is are the irregular forces in the Militia that used guerilla tactics against the British. Those hit and run attacks helped cut enemy supply lines and aided in evening things out, but in the end like all guerilla actions you can only win by fightiing a conventional war.

I think that you are confused about my idea of honor on the batlefield, its not really concerned with tactics, as you must use all means nessesary to destroy the enemy, including ambushes and attacking from behind their flank. My point is concerned with unessesary actions durring war, and who exacly I consider the enemy to be. I do not consider the enemy to be the entire population of a country, because they are not the ones shooting at me. and they can not fight mw without a Military, thus destroying the military is the primary target. Can you consider destroying support targets like factories and power stations? yes because taking them down can reduce the enemy's ability to make war.

The point of veiw you describe on the other hand advocates killing civilians indescriminatley for no other reason than to scare them into recalling their military. This serves no concrete military goal, because its not part of any real strategy. All you are doing is killing people, and hoping that alone will stop the war, or repression. This is the terrorist mentality, and history has proven it just doesn't work. In fact it only gathers further anger against you and your cause, and the civilian population becomes even more supportive of action against you.

You can say war has no rules,and you can basicly do whatever you want in a conflict, but on both moral and strategic grounds the senseless killing of civilians is not sound.



posted on Mar, 14 2004 @ 02:25 PM
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I think that the point TheEXone is trying to make is that in War, you don't hear of soldiers waking into a nightclub and pulling all their grenade pins because it was full of people that he didn't like.
IMO, terrorists are just that, terrorists. They don't care.
They have one thought, and that is to kill as many as they can in hopes in becoming "a hero/marty/whatever"
The honor that TheEXone speaks of, is knowing whats right and wrong(when it comes to killing), NO MATTER what your beliefs are.



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