My church sucks!

Absolutely. I feel you presented this calmly and rationally and I am never one to hide from my ways.

Thanks for listening

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero

God is omnipotent and knows my fate

I always am amazes how people have such serious problems that can be easily answered by paying attention to just stuff on the radio.
Lets say you do your grocery shopping in a store and you use a store rewards card. When you check out (using your reward/discount card) a printer spits out a coupon that the check-out person hands you with your receipt.
That was issued to you, custom made for you, based on a data base of everything you have ever bought, and a lot of sophisticated statistical analysis.
They figure out what you could be persuaded to buy and exactly how much of a deal you would need to have.
These are just stupid computers figuring this stuff out.
God has a higher capacity than the terabyte that this computer is working with.
Just because God can make a prediction about you, that does does not lock you into a fate.
God would not bother having prophets unless He was hoping someone would pay attention and try to avoid the calamity that they are headed into.

Saturday August 9th, 2008 www.coasttocoastam.com...
Yale Law and Business Professor Ian Ayres discussed his book Super Crunchers as well as all the ways data mining and number crunching are affecting our lives today. Private corporations have amassed petabytes* of data about individuals, Ayres explained,...

Thing is though I am not heading into any calamity.

Look here is how I see it plain and simple.

God IS all-knowing last I checked. He knows where I will end up so what I am saying is why the free-will to choose if he already knows my choice. You show this analogy to a computer like I am stupid or something. If God is what you say he is (and for the purposes of this discussion I will assume it) then he already knows what my ultimate destiny is. If not then how can he be all-knowing? He knows the destiny I will have. Now if he ISN'T all knowing then why lie about it?

How do I explain this better....

I am a man walking this Earth. I am a Christian (again assumption for the purposes of the tale). I walk up and I find a prophet who offers me life everlasting of eternal damnation. Now I being a man who appreciates not being in eternal pain choose the life with God but it really wasn't my choice if He already knew I was going to do so. It's like the Nutcracker whereby we are all part of Drosselmeyer's play. It isn't like God is pulling my strings making me dance, but he does know the movements. It all seemed like a cosmic joke to me.

Here I set Kyo on this planet. I will give him free will but ultimately his destiny will be to be with me. Why can't I make the choices? That to me doesn't seem as if I am in control of what I hold sacred.

If that is true and I am following a bad path, what the heck was the purpose of putting me here knowing I would end up being tortured in hell?

I've been told my purpose as a Christian is to live and spread the word. Why do it if He already has the plan. I've been told by priest, pastor, and council member that He has a plan for me. They've quoted the bible showing his omnipotence so I have a choice in my mind. Either I live on his railroad track or I believe it is a lie.

Look at your analogy. Something I really love is that Simply Lemonade. I adore that stuff and buy it pretty much every time I shop with my wife. Now a month ago I get presented with a dollar off for Simply Lemonade and of course I am overjoyed because I just saved a buck. Now in that scenario they knows my stats well enough to know that I will buy the lemonade and have seen me do it countless times without a coupon so why do I need the extra hand in the corporate sense. Instead of me paying 3 dollars for the lemonade they could easily just let me buy it again for the typical 4 dollars but at least here I have a choice. I could get tired of lemonade some day but in the realm of God who is omnipotent, I really don't see the choice there if I am already slotted a position.

Now beyond that there is the rest. I will not have a book tell me my wife is less than equal EVER. She is just as important to me. She is not dirty 5-7 days out of a month, she deserves no less than I and I will NEVER ask for sexual relations when she isn't ready. That by the way is pure scripture I have taken from the other posters straight from the bible.

Look, it's simple, OP asked us to relate our stories of why he left and I did. You asked me to back it up and I am doing so now. I don't like the heavanly views on women, I don't like not having a choice and whether you like it or not, that is how I view it. He knows where I am going already so what is my purpose here? To play the good little pawn?

My spirituality asks me to honor the planet, the universe, animals, people, and to generally be good. My heart will be weighed in the end and I will do other things to assure I become part of the universe. That is what works for me. I am sorry you don't like it or think I am ignorant. I have seen so many people on and off ATS tell me I need to be saved. Guess what...I already have, it just wasn't through your means and that's fine. Be a Christian and follow your path.

I have answered the OP's queston well I believe. If you think I am lost then let me be lost. Even he appreciated the comments and moved on

Thank you

-Kyo

Thing is though I am not heading into any calamity.

Look here is how I see it plain and simple.

God IS all-knowing last I checked. He knows where I will end up so what I am saying is why the free-will to choose if he already knows my choice. You show this analogy to a computer like I am stupid or something. If God is what you say he is (and for the purposes of this discussion I will assume it) then he already knows what my ultimate destiny is. If not then how can he be all-knowing? He knows the destiny I will have. Now if he ISN'T all knowing then why lie about it?

How do I explain this better....

I am a man walking this Earth. I am a Christian (again assumption for the purposes of the tale). I walk up and I find a prophet who offers me life everlasting of eternal damnation. Now I being a man who appreciates not being in eternal pain choose the life with God but it really wasn't my choice if He already knew I was going to do so. It's like the Nutcracker whereby we are all part of Drosselmeyer's play. It isn't like God is pulling my strings making me dance, but he does know the movements. It all seemed like a cosmic joke to me.

Here I set Kyo on this planet. I will give him free will but ultimately his destiny will be to be with me. Why can't I make the choices? That to me doesn't seem as if I am in control of what I hold sacred.

If that is true and I am following a bad path, what the heck was the purpose of putting me here knowing I would end up being tortured in hell?

I've been told my purpose as a Christian is to live and spread the word. Why do it if He already has the plan. I've been told by priest, pastor, and council member that He has a plan for me. They've quoted the bible showing his omnipotence so I have a choice in my mind. Either I live on his railroad track or I believe it is a lie.

Look at your analogy. Something I really love is that Simply Lemonade. I adore that stuff and buy it pretty much every time I shop with my wife. Now a month ago I get presented with a dollar off for Simply Lemonade and of course I am overjoyed because I just saved a buck. Now in that scenario they knows my stats well enough to know that I will buy the lemonade and have seen me do it countless times without a coupon so why do I need the extra hand in the corporate sense. Instead of me paying 3 dollars for the lemonade they could easily just let me buy it again for the typical 4 dollars but at least here I have a choice. I could get tired of lemonade some day but in the realm of God who is omnipotent, I really don't see the choice there if I am already slotted a position.

Now beyond that there is the rest. I will not have a book tell me my wife is less than equal EVER. She is just as important to me. She is not dirty 5-7 days out of a month, she deserves no less than I and I will NEVER ask for sexual relations when she isn't ready. That by the way is pure scripture I have taken from the other posters straight from the bible.

Look, it's simple, OP asked us to relate our stories of why he left and I did. You asked me to back it up and I am doing so now. I don't like the heavanly views on women, I don't like not having a choice and whether you like it or not, that is how I view it. He knows where I am going already so what is my purpose here? To play the good little pawn?

My spirituality asks me to honor the planet, the universe, animals, people, and to generally be good. My heart will be weighed in the end and I will do other things to assure I become part of the universe. That is what works for me. I am sorry you don't like it or think I am ignorant. I have seen so many people on and off ATS tell me I need to be saved. Guess what...I already have, it just wasn't through your means and that's fine. Be a Christian and follow your path.

I have answered the OP's queston well I believe. If you think I am lost then let me be lost. Even he appreciated the comments and moved on

Thank you

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero


I am not saying you are lost.
I was not trying to say you were headed to calamity.
I was just giving an example that I thought would be illustrative of the point that people are not locked into a fate.
The myth of the Fates is a Greek concept and not one that comes from the Jews.
The Jews believe in consequences but not that your life is controlled.
I was not comparing you to a computer.
I was saying people have invented a system, using computers, that can predict your future actions, based on a data base of your past actions and the actions of other people.
Your intuitive sort of way of figuring out the lemonade story is probably correct.
They probably see a pattern that once people drink a certain amount of lemonade, they get burnt out on it and start drinking something else.
You got to that level, so they issued you a coupon to string you out a little longer than the statistical norm.
I tryed to explain to you, in another thread, how our concept of God's omniscience is flawed.
God created the universe to be just random enough that any future event can go several different ways.
God set His throne inside this universe and so, puts Himself under the rules He established for the operation of it.
I think you may be over-concerned about your role in the universe.
We, who are alive today,IMO, are not here to be tested and are not able to pass a test, even if we were.
We do not have free will, the same way that Adam did.
There is a controversy of huge dimensions going on around us between good and evil but we have a limited role in it.
We are given, as a gift above what our actual capacity is, the ability to choose sides in that controversy.
We have daily choices that affect our own life and people around us but we are not going to be able to affect the greater controversy.
That is left to entities more powerful than ourselves.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

Fair enough...despite my accidental double post...

oh well onto more important things...hopefully some mod will delete one of those

Let me ask this. Is God omnipotent or not in your personal view?

Before I see an answer, seeing as posting isn't exactly live, I would like to follow with this.

IF you say no he isn't omnipotent then what is he and why does scripture claim he is?

If you say he is omnipotent does my idea still hodl water?

Now more than likely you will grace me with a fine answer that's a touch more complex than that. As I stated I believe you to be a bright individual.

If the answer isn't one of the above, what is the flaw in his omnipotence? Feel free to link me or just give me the name of the thread so you don't have to exhaust yourself re-explaining it as I may very well have forgotten that thread.

I really am curious and am not baiting in anway. Please enlighten me as I much prefer not to walk through life blinded. Thanks in advance

Also...I am sorry if I overreacted. I am a man and I like to admit when I am wrong before it becoems a bigger issue.

-Kyo


[edit on 14-8-2008 by KyoZero]

[edit on 14-8-2008 by KyoZero]

reply to post by KyoZero


Oops, you caught me in the middle of adding new stuff to my post.
I do not know if this new stuff would answer your question.
I will look at it and see if I can add some clarification to what I already wrote.
These are difficult concepts and they do not look the same to others, as it does to me.

If the answer isn't one of the above, what is the flaw in his omnipotence?

A lot of skeptical type people will say something like, "I do not believe in the bearded god, up there."
I do, but here is the difference, God could have made a universe and do the whole thing while standing outside of it, considering He is all powerful.
God is not "up there" as in being detached from us.
God chose to be an active player and inhabitant of this creation.
He designed it to make himself a real player and an active member of what is happening inside this universe.
In order to make it work, God does not "see" the future, like we would see it.
Being all knowing, He can make very good predictions.
The other very important thing to consider is that God has a plan, and God does work to accomplish His plans.
So, that is going to affect outcomes.
There is a certain flexibility in the universe that God can make use of.



[edit on 14-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

I can't even tell you how many times this has happened to me. In my own website/forum we have it set up so that if you are typing and I post it will show me your words before I post it. The problem is like this situation it doesn't count edits...oh well

Either way to be fair I reread the original and the new post. I think that makes alot more sense than what I have heard for most of my youth. May I ask this, do you feel there are innacuracies in the bible itself? If so is it because it is written from man?

If this isn't the place I would be more than happy to PM you and discuss it further.

Thanks

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero


This goes along with the name of the thread,"My church sucks".
I do not think the problem is in the Bible, but a lot of what men have added to religion that does not come from the Bible.
I have a library of most of the early Christian writers and you might be surprised at how well versed in Greek mythology they were and how much they tryed to apply it to Christianity.
People are not kidding when they say that Christianity was tainted by Paganism.
I do not know if you realize it but to become a Catholic priest, the first thing you learn is what they call the Classics.
That is nothing but Greek mythology and astrology.
All this stuff was incorporated into the Church doctrine from very early on and is passed down to us, even if we are Protestant, in the form of the creeds.
I was lucky enough to have been brought up in a creed-free church and was never forced to accept all these man made doctrines.
Another thing that does not have anything to do with religion, exactly, has to do with government mind control.
Recently I was listening to Alex Jones and he had as a guest someone who was an expert in it.
They were talking about substances put into vaccines for mind control.
They were saying that in certain people, who have strong allergies they are able to block the uptake of this substance, past the blood/brain barrier and affecting the mind.
Their bodies would take those substances and hold it in the digestive system.
They end up with serious gastric problems but they retain a certain ability to see through human deception.
These people have a responsibility towards the others who have been poisoned and get caught up in the big control scheme.
When I heard this I had to think it was talking about me.
I was super sick and at the point of death many times when I was young, because of allergies.
Now that I am older, I have suffered to the point of having to be hospitalized five times from gastronomical reasons.
This might sound like paranoid delusion on my part.
I do not think I am greater than anyone else.
I just consider myself to be normal, in a world where our minds are under attack from people in high places who do not have our best interests at heart.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

jmdewey60 and KyoZero,

Hi!

There has been a lot of studying around this FATE question…here are two points of view.

The "Five Points" of Calvinism
1. Total Inability or Total Depravity
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not--indeed he cannot--choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ--it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation--it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
2. Unconditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
3. Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
4. Irresistible Grace or The Efficacious Call of the Spirit
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
5. Perseverance of the Saints
All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

= = = = =

The "Five Points" of Arminianism

1. Free Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.
2. Conditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
4. The Holy Spirit Can be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.
5. Falling from Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ--that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
Source: www.aracnet.com...

reply to post by OldThinker

His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

Is this some sort of translation from German?
Can you explain what this means in ordinary language.
Maybe not, since you seem to take the opposing viewpoint.
I have to say that I do not agree with Calvin, in General.
I tend more towards the Lutheran way of looking at salvation.
All this seems to me to be an attempt at looking at salvation in a scientific way.
Paul takes a more legalistic approach to it.
I do not buy into the idea of pre-determination.
I believe in a certain degree of flexibility being at work, concerning salvation.
If that was not the case, there would be no need for judgment.
It would all be cut and dried and no need for weighing things.
Salvation is available to all and God does not want anyone to loose out on salvation.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Great observation and question...

The subject is a bit above my head though...

But the Jollyblogger has an idea...where limited atonement is explained and amplified...see link below, ok?

jollyblogger.typepad.com...

reply to post by OldThinker


Thanks for the link.
I find all this somewhat difficult to take.
It is a fact that Jesus died as a result of the sinfulness of the world.
But I do not see the direct link of the Jewish ceremonial sacrificial system and the cross.
I know people like to make some sort of connection but I can see it only in the most vague way possible.
What I see is this horrific little infected planet that a holy god would want to squash like a bug.
Jesus comes along and presents himself as a reason for God forestalling the world's destruction.
Thus, the whole world is temporarily given a reprieve in order for Jesus to put his earthly work into affect.
Christ is given the Holy Spirit in order to carry out his plan.
Those who accept him will be given a covering of righteousness that Jesus made, to be accepted into a future existence within the presence of God.
Our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ's sacrifice of becoming sin, for us and taking the penalty that we deserve.
Making anything more of it than that, to me is men trying to close the gates of heaven to exclude anyone but themselves.

The sacrifice was originally a simple affair and it became more of a complicated system, as time went on.
I do not think we need to make things more complicated than what we are given in the Bible.



[edit on 14-8-2008 by jmdewey60]