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This forum is rife with pop pseudo psychology posing as fact

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posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 12:28 PM
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This forum states that one of its subject topics is psychology. However, it appears that there are some members who interpret psychology to mean "anything I think", and whom wildly pedal daft pop pseudo psychology as if it were cast iron fact.

Some of time it is of the ‘harmless’ variety but when I read that a member is telling other members that if they leave ATS it may be dangerous for them and that they may have instructions implanted that will be triggered if they leave I could not believe that anyone would be stupid enough to post that or to believe it, not even as a possibility! And it is not just those stupid enough to believe it that could be harmed by such advice, there are young and mentally unstable people who may be driven to extremes by that kind of irresponsible advice.

If this were a medical forum and people where advising others with all sorts of mumbo jumbo there would be legal issues. People should be aware that those irresponsibly advising on a similar level with so called psychological advice fall into that category also. For example I refer you to all the recent coverage of suicides and people advising vulnerable people on the internet. Have you considered what you might be pushing a person to do by telling them they can’t leave a forum without being implanted with unconscious instruction?

There should be a standard set by ATS for the kind of posts that are posted here that claim to be based on psychological fact or theory. And then the rest should just post their daft ideas in ’Rant’ or ‘The Gray area‘.




[edit on 2-8-2008 by UFOpsychiczebra]




posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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Everyone is a psycologist these days but only a few are able to provide interesting discussion. Most just ask dumb questions and RARELY to themselves first before posting.....which would probably negate the point of the thread in the first place!

Choose your subjects, don't waste time bumping up useless threads etc.

Kill threads you feel are pointless with obvious statements, they're usually just "ATS"ers having a "Gossip".... and report things you feel are in the wrong forum to staff.

Gossip is not meant to contain conclusions, but to perpetuate.

Not exactly psycology is it?


At the end of the day it's up to "US" as members to reveal what some struggle or refuse to imagine. strengthen the weak, congratulate the profound, deny the ignorant and even a metaphorical "slap" round the face can work wonders sometimes. (either way).

As long as you have FUN, it's a great way to see just how "squiffy" the world is.

The ATS world is ours for the making though ... "squiffy" 'n all!

Better the devil you know (or think you know).

interesting thread.

[edit on 2/8/2008 by nerbot]



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 08:52 AM
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reply to post by UFOpsychiczebra
 


i see your point, but i disagree. this is ATS for one thing...an alternative topic website of potentially bizarre or far-fetched forums. bogus, daft thoughts or advice are nigh expected, because we are sampling from the whole kettle of thought, all ranges of intelligence. you can't just censor the posts that seem intellectually inferior to oneself, because it might be a gem and quite needed for the poster or for the reader, even just on a mental "i'm not alone in thought" level.

secondly, while i do think we should always help those that we can, we cannot be responsible for an individual's action unless we told them to do something in a very direct, to-the-point way. if i posted on a forum for someone to go kill themselves, and if i wrote, "go kill yourself, [insert name here]" i might be more guilty in any reciprocating action. if i post an out-there theory on the pending doom of our race from a catastrophic invasion where aliens will rape and then slaughter all of humanity, all of this happening by sunrise.....would i be responsible if someone offed themselves that night to not have to go through alien rapings and slaughter?

the answer is grey. i might have helped them get to the point of no return, but if they were that eager to believe without any proof from me besides my words...they were just looking for an excuse to kill themselves. a damaged mind will bring rationality to any asinine action.

theories are called such because they are theoretical. advice on this website usually means a theory put to action. if one chooses to act, without being forced, they are responsible for that action.



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by banyan
reply to post by UFOpsychiczebra
 


i see your point, but i disagree. this is ATS for one thing...an alternative topic website of potentially bizarre or far-fetched forums. bogus, daft thoughts or advice are nigh expected, ... you can't just censor the posts that seem intellectually inferior to oneself, because it might be a gem and quite needed for the poster or for the reader, even just on a mental "i'm not alone in thought" level.


I understand what you are saying but you seem to have misunderstood my point. Far fetched theories, wild ideas are fine, in their correct place on the boards, which was why I suggested that those posts ought to be in the 'Rant' thread or 'The Grey Area' or even 'General chit chat‘, or even in another appropriate forum. However, NOT in a psychology forum. For example if someone states that they personally hear voices and that those voices tell them to do whatever, that is fine in 'The Gray Area' or 'Rant' but if they then say that the voices they hear are loosely connected to a less than poor understanding of psychological theory and that they have researched the 'fact' that everyone at ATS has those voices in their head and they link that with Freud and goodness knows who else in a pathetic attempt to give weight to their so called 'theories' (that they have in fact patched together from a mish-mash of pop pseudo psychological ideas) then it is wrong that it is posted in the Psychology forum. Whenever those type of pop pseudo psychology posters start they only want masses of replies from 'followers' who just agree with them and push their points total up, they are never prepared to debate their so called theories and they simply churn out more and more pseudo logic in a game of smoke and mirrors that only impresses their 'followers' more but in fact is only a game of deflection on their part.

Another nasty aspect of those type of posters is that they can spot the vulnerable and highly suggestible members a mile off and they encourage them in their threads. They know exactly what they doing. It is simply morally wrong, and in many cases also legally wrong, to take advantage of those who are mentally unstable or otherwise mentally vulnerable. If those posters had any genuine motives they would not attempt to take advantage of those people.

One of the basics of ATS is the value of appropriate posting in appropriate areas. This prevents a flood of off topic wild ramblings under the banner of another subject just to get attention, and unwarranted credit to the OP.



secondly, while i do think we should always help those that we can, we cannot be responsible for an individual's action unless we told them to do something in a very direct, to-the-point way.


That depends on whether you think of it morally or legally. Morally you are responsible in part. We are all responsible for our actions and the effect of those actions on others. It is extremely naive to believe that you could function as normal human being in this world without being responsible for your effect on others. Are you honestly suggesting that you believe for example that if you love someone you do not affect them in some way? Your friends? Others you know? Or do you seriously go through live thinking that your actions only matter to you? A note here is that an actual belief in your actions being completely inconsequential to others is related to psychopathic behaviour.

And legally you could be held responsible if a causal link can be shown. You have a reasonable duty to your behaviour and actions and their effects on others.



if i posted on a forum for someone to go kill themselves, and if i wrote, "go kill yourself, [insert name here]" i might be more guilty in any reciprocating action. if i post an out-there theory on the pending doom of our race from a catastrophic invasion where aliens will rape and then slaughter all of humanity, all of this happening by sunrise.....would i be responsible if someone offed themselves that night to not have to go through alien rapings and slaughter?


Again the answer to that is in part you would be responsible yes. In the same way you would be responsible if you telephoned in a false bomb threat which led to someone rushing down stairs in that building because of your bomb scare and breaking their leg. The key point here being that you were involved in their decision to act even if you did not force them directly. Also, any reasonable person would understand that most coercion is far more subtle but no less ineffective. Your example is like saying that if someone held a gun to your head and said you have to do something that they are not responsible (as well as you) because you could have refused.



the answer is grey. i might have helped them get to the point of no return, but if they were that eager to believe without any proof from me besides my words...they were just looking for an excuse to kill themselves. a damaged mind will bring rationality to any asinine action.


Your comments show a complete lack of understanding of the way suicidal thoughts work. Also, your total disregard and lack of compassion for those not as mentally well as yourself is appalling. Using your line of argument you would condone the taunting of someone with an IQ that places them in the mentally disabled range just because you consider they would end up doing something stupid eventually.

So, you think for example that telling someone who is severely depressed that their life is pointless and then follow that with scare tactics, then throw in a bit of bad news to 'finish them off', who then kills themselves, would , a) not be your responsibility and b) acceptable because they were mentally unstable.

Cruelty, manipulation of power (mental or otherwise) and ridicule of others is NOT acceptable just because the person is mentally unstable or 'damaged'. We are judged by how we treat those less fortunate than ourselves and quite rightly so.

A general note here, people do well to remember that at the other side of these posts are REAL people. Treat them as such.



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by UFOpsychiczebra
Your comments show a complete lack of understanding of the way suicidal thoughts work. Also, your total disregard and lack of compassion for those not as mentally well as yourself is appalling. Using your line of argument you would condone the taunting of someone with an IQ that places them in the mentally disabled range just because you consider they would end up doing something stupid eventually.


just because i did not speak of compassion for the mentally unwell does not mean i do not feel any. furthermore, i did not speak without compassion either towards them. actually, i was just speaking to you.

i do not see anywhere in my previous post any negative feelings or thoughts, neither did i condone taunting of said individuals.

you may think this because you feel somehow feel responsible for what other people do with the information they absorb. i am talking about every person, the weak and strong-minded. why do you want to be the sheriff of their morality?

i do not think that any post that deals with psychology/mental health should be only for mentally unwell. there be could thousands of suicidal individuals reading that forum [and all of ATS] every day. or there could be one. or there could be none. i am sure it changes every day. why should i censor or try not to be too fantastical with a theory of mine, just because someone, somewhere might abuse it and do something stupid with it?

my statements might seem insensitive, but this is a website of free speech and of DIVERSE backgrounds who view life, death, morals, religion, and culture all different.

a mentally unwell person has as much danger harming themselves after going to a church service that might condemn any one of their numerous actions as they do on here, where they willfully choose which threads to read and to take seriously.


So, you think for example that telling someone who is severely depressed that their life is pointless and then follow that with scare tactics, then throw in a bit of bad news to 'finish them off', who then kills themselves, would , a) not be your responsibility and b) acceptable because they were mentally unstable.


actually, no. in my previous post i said that if one tells someone to do something harmful to their person and they do it, you might have more of a case. i never said it was acceptable, and i dare you to quote me on that.

when i post, i do not think, "holy crap, what i said could have just given someone somewhere the possible thought that i would be okay with it if they killed themselves tonight."



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 06:39 PM
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also...while i am thinking about it,

none of these threads pertaining to psychology/mental health are claiming they are real professionals with sure-fire medical advice. this forum is not MEANT to be utilized in that way. i do not think one person here would seriously recommend someone with suicidal tendencies, depression, or any other form of mental illness to JUST go to this forum and gather up all the information within these digital walls.

this is ABOVEtopsecret, not BELOWtopsecret.

an actual helpful website is NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness

*edited for external link

[edit on 3-8-2008 by banyan]



posted on Aug, 6 2008 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by banyan
 


Being responsible for your own actions does not make you a so called "moral sheriff" of others. How you can confuse being responsible for your own actions, and your effects on others, with the actions of others I do not know.

If you really believe that your are not responsible for your actions and their effects on others you are lying to yourself.



posted on Aug, 8 2008 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by UFOpsychiczebra
reply to post by banyan
 


Being responsible for your own actions does not make you a so called "moral sheriff" of others. How you can confuse being responsible for your own actions, and your effects on others, with the actions of others I do not know.

If you really believe that your are not responsible for your actions and their effects on others you are lying to yourself.



see...you are being silly. of course we are responsible for our actions and their effects on others. all i am saying is how can you be responsible for someone's detrimental action from a post that was not intended to be taken the way it was taken when it's to a broad audience on an open forum on a website that specializes in alternative topics and theories?

that's like saying i am not going to get into my car and drive through Funky Town [ATS] today because someone might decide to kill themselves by purposefully flinging their body out in front of my tires. i mean if i hadn't driven through Funky Town, my car [my theory] would not have been there to purposefully kill themselves under. who cares about all the other cars driving around...

how can you say, "don't say this, don't say that, because of this" when i haven't broken any law...when i have freedom of speech...when this website encourages and rewards out-of-the-box thinking and theories, all because the future has not been written yet and someone may abuse a theory and somehow end up not being responsible for their actions but miraculously i would be.

*edited for thought and grammar.

[edit on 8-8-2008 by banyan]



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by banyan
... i haven't broken any law...when i have freedom of speech...when this website encourages and rewards out-of-the-box thinking and theories,
[edit on 8-8-2008 by banyan]


With Freedom comes responsibility. Freedom of speech does not mean you should say anything you like. Do you think it is OK to shout racist remarks at people in the street?



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by UFOpsychiczebra
With Freedom comes responsibility. Freedom of speech does not mean you should say anything you like. Do you think it is OK to shout racist remarks at people in the street?


i think at this point you simply just want this thread to continue, regardless of how little basis you have in trying to censor psychological posts. that's what i think.

who here is shouting racist remarks in the streets? who here is telling people with mental illnesses to kill themselves? why don't you provide me these links to these quotes.

do you not think that our beloved forum moderators would pull something from the website if they deemed it harmful or against their T&C?? if you have beef with the content provided here, maybe you should contact your friendly moderator for their support?

and yes i think it's our right to shout whatever we want in the streets. i do not believe in censorship in any form. people are free to shout back their own thoughts as well. i do not support racism and would certainly not condone it, but that is hardly the point.

are you one of those people who believe in personal freedoms until someone walks up with totally different views and then yells, "silence that fool, for he is EVIL!"



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by banyan

do you not think that our beloved forum moderators would pull something from the website if they deemed it harmful or against their T&C?? if you have beef with the content provided here, maybe you should contact your friendly moderator for their support?

and yes i think it's our right to shout whatever we want in the streets. i do not believe in censorship in any form. people are free to shout back their own thoughts as well.


The moderation of ATS is entirely up to the mods. Don't try and stir up mods against me that is childish.


If you do not believe in censorship in ANY FORM then you do not think there should be any limits on porn for example? You think people should be able to shout WHATEVER they like at other people in the street etc. And that we shouldn't protect people from racist attacks. You just think they should shout back.
That is not how the real world works.

You cannot have 100% freedom to do whatever you like, face it, that's life.

What next, you think people should be able to steal what they like from shops and murder people? There is no such thing as 100% freedom in society! And should we let children of under 10 years of age to see 18 cert. films? By your standards that would be allowed.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 01:14 AM
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I think walking on eggs in order to avoid harming someone mentally (in a public forum,) is a bit severe. But, I also understand that there is a line that should not be crossed.

The internet is full of pitiable trolls, many of whom find amusement in tormenting those who may seem eccentric or strange (and in fact may possess some kind of mental condition.) I've been on boards where a suicidal teen is threatening to take their life and people egg them on (i.e. "Do it, YES!") Those kind of people are poison to any online community and they are probably unaware of the effect their words have on someone who is truly reaching out or someone who is mentally disturbed.

But, we also cannot assume that everything we say will be taken to the extreme or that everyone posting is not mentally sound.

I look at a forum as a place similar to standing in the middle of a crowded public are and shouting at the top of your lungs. You can't control that situation 100% and you can't control all that happens on a forum. You can do your best, sure, and try not to provoke or offer dangerous advice, absolutely.

Anyway, wrote more than I thought. Carry on!





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