Can the Brain live forever?

Originally posted by sirnex


@Epsillion70:

A belief is different from reality. You can believe that having two apples in front of you means you have three apples in front of you. Yet, the reality is that there are only two apples. Poor analogy, but I don't really feel like getting into it to deeply right now. We all believe different things while existing in only one universe.

What you are saying is all philosophical garbage and really has no merit towards the discussion. What a person believes is brought about by many factors, most of the time through the opinions of what others believe. It takes that special someone to come around and use his/her brain and a touch of common sense to observe the universe without making quick judgment. Before you formulate a strong belief in anything, attack the issue from all angles until only one conclusion can present itself.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by sirnex]

To look at Beliefs from another angle.
What would your immediate conclusions be in regards to why it has been found with a certain percentage of people in blind clinical studies,
Believe that the medicine that they are given by a Doctor will make them better. When in Realitythey have only simply been given a plain old sugar lolly"Placebo"?
The end result being indicative in affirming that these people with their Belief/s in the medicine do show a higher percentage of their symptoms of inflictive illness(whether severe or minimal) or actual whole condition lessening and actually receding and them gaining a complete and normal health status?

sirnex : Conducting experiments on the possibility of mind uploading being criminal? That is insanity and exactly why science doesn't flourish to the extents that it could. It's the spiritualists and religious beliefs that hinder the growth of human knowledge. The inconceivable notion that we might tick off some naked invisible god that we place only faith on it's existence. That is exactly the type of ignorance science wants to abolish. Knowledge is a powerful tool that can be used to do great things, without knowledge, we might as well still live in mud huts and sharpen our spears before the big hunt, which will only take place after we worship a stone carving that we believe embodies the spirit of our great deity.

There is a huge difference between INTELLIGENCE and WISDOM !!

All man could ever hope to achieve with this kind of technology is a modern day Frankenstein.

“It is only with the heart that one can see rightly;
what is essential is invisible to the eye.”
-Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Creation began somewhere !! Even scientists can’t deny this fact ( science theories point to a Primeval atom ). Therefore there is a source.

The Source of Life evolves innumerable forms of organic life, each in precise balance with the others...human beings do not own or control these natural treasures...Who is man to alter the original creation at the risk of potentially threatening the structure and balance of everything else in this amazing and wonderful universe. How arrogant for man to presume he can !!

Man can Develop - Build and Engineer but what has Man ever truly Created - without using the original resources/designs that were the direct result of the initial and original creation ???

Science has had free reign - since the beginning of time. If scientists ever suspected certain experiments would create a public outcry they would of been carried out in secret - regardless of public opinion. One would have to be extremely naive to believe otherwise.

There is no denying that science and technology has played a decisive role in shaping our lives in the 20th century but at what cost??

The world population is now 6.684 billion. In line with population projections, this figure continues to grow at rates that were unprecedented before the 20th century.

GENETIC ENGINEERING
The unnatural insertion of a foreign sequence of genetic code in the midst of the orderly sequence of genetic codes of the recipient, developed through millions of years. This is a profound intervention with unpredictable consequences.

We now have Atomic, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.

OH yes and add to that the reality of Global warming - dwindling resources - New reports show that some 60% of the benefits that the global ecosystem provides to support life on Earth (such as fresh water, clean air and a relatively stable climate) are being degraded or used unsustainably. Ecosystems are the planet's life-support system. They are fundamental to human health and indispensable to the well-being of all people and animals everywhere in the world. Scientists know Ecosystems and human health are inter-twined as everything in the universe is ( Spiritual concept ) Yet we know this spiritual concept is FACT !! I believe this is just the beginning - the first of many serious problems associated with science / mans constant interference with the composition and structure of nature - something which has worked independently and perfectly for billions of years .


The Universe has been here for approx 13.73 billion years.

And man has been here how long ? 50,000 years ??

What is man in the great scheme of things ?? In the words of Carl Sagan - A very - very small spec in the vast cosmic arena.


Absence of evidence of harm is not evidence of absence of harm.







[edit on 17-8-2008 by destiny-fate]

reply to post by sirnex


Isn't it obvious that if he had 1mm of brain he would hardly have any white matter in his brain? Practically no white matter or grey matter, but still an academic degree and a respectable IQ.

A most fascinating idea...

I've always been curious about the capacity of the human brain to assert it's 'right to exist' even under extreme circumstances of illness, injury, etc..

If neural pathways are disrupted or damaged, owing to the holistic interconnected cross-linking nature of the brain, it will always try to re-wire itself...as long as there is a source of external electrical stimulus to the cortex to tie a sensory experience to an emotion, there will always be memory, and as long as there is memory, there will be a mind

@Epsillion70:

You do realize that a placebo does nothing for a patient?

@destiny-fate:

Frivolous argument that does nothing to prove your point. No one is doubting that the universe came from somewhere, not even the scientists. The main difference is in the amount of evidence between science and religious groups, with science having the majority of evidence in its favor.

There is no observed or experimental spiritual aspect of the universe, so no, it is not a fact. Your whole argument does nothing to really add to the discussion, but if you would like to get into a who's got a bigger one match over which dogma has been more destructive towards humanity and the growth of our species, then start a new thread.

@TheBandit795:

The cerebral cortex, the area of the brain mentioned in this article is normally only 2-4mm anyways, one more mm shouldn't hurt that much. The cerebral cortex is the 'gray matter' that sits on the outside of the white matter. I think you may have misunderstood the article.

The one I read even says: www.science-frontiers.com...

Yet, this boy has virtually no brain; his cortex measures only a millimeter or so thick compared to the normal 4.5 centimeters.

Obviously a shock and awe tactic in my opinion. The article makes it appear that the boy has no brain when it fails to mention that a 'normal' brain can be as little as 2mm of gray matter and it makes no mention of white matter and its overall importance on how the brain functions in the first place.

Oh yeah, you're right. It's just the the cerebral cortex and not the whole brain. Thanks for the clarification on that link.

But anyway, there is still strong evidence that consciousness is independent from the brain. Veridical Near death experiences show that.

reply to post by TheBandit795


Your welcome for the clarification. I personally dislike shock and awe tactics like this as it degrades what should be a good source of information.

There are many instances of discrepancies with NDE's/OBE's and reported occurrences in the physical world. Let's not forget either that we can mess with the brain itself while a person is fully alive and give rise to these same effects. Not that people experiencing these things are any more dead than someone alive. Which is kind of odd, in an NDE, no one is 'dead', they don't go to some 'otherside' and then come back to the living; The whole time they experience it, they are still alive.

It could be a combination of the brains protection against a traumatic shock (obviously) and perhaps some unconscious usage of sensory input is still being used; Of course, it's very hard to test for that. Yet, if the brain is making use of some sensory input, such as fleeting images from the eyes and auditory input all being tied into past experiences (say, from television or previous visits to a doctor and perhaps images of the body in a mirror), then that may explain how the brain can give rise to the illusion of floating above your body and 'seeing and hearing' what is going on.

Another possibility is, without substantial laboratory experiments, people could just be lying. People have a knack for lying to sell an idea to other people, or just to perpetuate a myth they feel strongly about. We know this much is true, so we can't fully rule out the possibility. Unless we can show conclusively and repeatedly in a controlled setting that NDE's and OBE's are real phenomenon, then any claims to such should be met with the utmost care and with much criticism.

Interesting post.. Sort of reminds me of dude that got a patent for keeping a severed head alive "If We Can Keep a Severed Head Alive...Discorporation and U.S. Patent 4,666,425" by Chet Flemming.

Awhile back I did some googling on the net to see if this had every actually been done.. The closest thing I could find (and someone mentioned this already) was the monkey head transplant. As I understand it, the major arteries etc were connected by the spine remained sever, and they pretty much said that slicing nerves from the spine were pretty much impossible. That is of course the idea if one were simply trying to transplant a head onto another body.

On the other side of the coin.. if the goal were to upload your brain to a computer... That reminds me of Kurzwiel's Cyber Sapiens, virtual humans and Natasha Vita-More's Strategic Sustainable Brain. There is quite a bit written about it here.

As computer techology evolve, this will no doubt become a reality, I dont believe this is any sort of replacement for human experience, but very well could be a viable strategy for preserving intelligence albiet artificial.

reply to post by sirnex


Check out this thread about the veridical NDE's.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by TheBandit795


Thank you for the thread, I replied to it.

reply to post by sirnex


A predictable response - Thanks

reply to post by destiny-fate


A predictable response? The last thing I am going to do in the thread is get into a discussion over which dogma has been more harmful towards humanity. How you equate that with a typical response is beyond me. What you posted added nothing of substance to this discussion and you also made claims that no one was arguing against in the first place. I think you may have some deep rooted issues you need to work out.

Arguing about consciousness is going to be moot, until we can create a conscious being. Once we can do that, all the arguments for the spiritual will go out the window, just like earth center of universe, flat earth, the flood etc. Eventually things will side with science as usual, because if its real it can be tested.

On topic: yes brains will be able to survive forever. Not sure when though, but we are close enough to this technologically that we will probably live to see it. Biological science is advancing almost as fast as moores law at the moment, and has the potential to move much faster. Aging will be the first to fall, I expect withing 20 years, and "backing up your brain" will be shortly after.

I just hope the method to stop aging isn't controlled by a single organization - it would be tragic.

Sign me up for the VAT

I think the few posts on this forum stating that the brain is incapable of self repair are certainly wrong. The brain is ( and proven by medical science) capable of self repair but at usually a slow rate. Excercise studies recently performed show that moderate physical activity does actually slowly promote the growth of new neurons in some areas which may explain the sense of well being we get after a physical toil. Look at the result of wheelchair bound people and stagnent individuals that get limited or no physical excercise!, they literally slowly pack up , lots and partically older people are at risk of senility from non-activity. I feel The brain could live eternally but it would be difficult for it to do so in today's world mainly because of too many environmental problems. At death I feel there is a reasonable chance some form of consciousness may survive but exactly what is unknown? I have read books by Hilton Hotema a great but anonymous preacher who wrote in the 1950's to 1960's many health and spiritual literatures. He argues that the scientific conceptions of life are wrong when it states that : "Life is a series of chemical changes and stops when the bodies can no longer support these chemical changes". Hotema states that man wanders is darkness because he does not know what life is. He then further states that living forms are not alive of themselves but are merely instruments through which life operates. He calls all life Divine life and God ! And life continues bodily operation so long as the body it dwells in conforms in every detail to the law. He goes by Christs words "The Spirit quickeneth the flesh profit nothing."
Hotema believed consciousness survives the demise of the body because the body was never alive to begin with (we are decieved by our limited senses.) In many NDE cases lots of people return to tell of themselves looking down on operating tables and seeing what was going on with an overwhelming sense of peace , only to be thrust back inside the painful body , such cases should be considered imprtant and I feel definately not ignored. Of course to conclude we have no proof of consciousness residing apart from the brain but there is a growing body of evidence to support it.

reply to post by sufusci


The only way this will happen is through gene therapy. Every cell in your body has a genetic trigger to commit suicide after so long. So, to the op's original question, the answer is NO.

The best way to keep the brain alive is to slow the disease of aging. By slowing the aging process you are extending your lifespan. The only proven way to extend life and decrease the rate of aging, as shown in multiple lab studies, is by eating a restricted calorie diet, thus controlling insulin. Eating is very stressful on the body as a whole.

-Dev

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by sufusci

 

The only way this will happen is through gene therapy. Every cell in your body has a genetic trigger to commit suicide after so long. So, to the op's original question, the answer is NO.

The best way to keep the brain alive is to slow the disease of aging. By slowing the aging process you are extending your lifespan. The only proven way to extend life and decrease the rate of aging, as shown in multiple lab studies, is by eating a restricted calorie diet, thus controlling insulin. Eating is very stressful on the body as a whole.

-Dev

Yes, and within 50 years (perhaps much, much less) this will be available. See the recent advances in understanding telomere lenghening and you will see what I mean. It's coming, brain, body and all.

Not sure if any of this was mentioned, but they did "successful" head transplants back in the 60's I think it was. I'm sure that the technology/science went underground when it was supposed to have stopped.

Here's an old thread that might interest you on the topic...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Well, I came upon this forum because I was curious as to whether I could have some hope that within my lifetime I might have the opportunity to make decisions involving the physical world around me beyond my expected lifespan that might benefit society given my many years of life and work experience. In other words, within the next 40 years or so, might it be possible to extend the input and output functions of my brain after the end of my other physical functions.

Some of you say the brain cannot survive without the interaction of the body, some of you say our brains could be uploaded to artificial devices (computers), and some of you say the consciousness of our brains may not be directly linked to our physiology. But a couple of you point to experiments with transplanted monkey heads. Do those experiments seem to indicate that given the right inputs, a human head (brain) could be made to live significantly longer than the failure of organs that cause normal death?

Are you all just guessing or is there a real neurologist or brain surgeon in this forum? Does brain tissue decay near the same rate as the rest of our cells? Is there hope of replicating spinal transmissions to the brain in a meaningful way sometime in the near future? Is it possible to keep a healthy young brain alive and functioning without the human parts below the neck for a period of many years? We have people living many years without limbs and certain organs. Is it possible to live without any organs other than the brain through artificial hearts, lungs, kidneys, spleens, etc? What is the difference between having no arms and legs to having no torso with an artificial breathing machine, an artificial heart, and a dialysis machine?

Do you think that society as a whole might benefit from keeping the head (and brain) of someone like Stephen Hawking alive for many years past his body if it were able to communicate?

Just think, get it, anyways, just think if you were just a brain artificaly maintaned, and the poor brain lost all the external sensual capacity factoring when the body was discarded. Do you think the brain will go mad.

Lets say the brain doesn't know the body is gone but remembers a body. Than an itch occurres in the brains neural groin area and its maddening since no mechanism exist to respond to the itch created in the brain (subject note: a groin itch can be maddening all by itself). Or maybe the throat gets a tickle and the brain can't clear it because its waiting for a throat muscle reflex response, or the eye twitches and itches.

Every sensual component learned will haunt the brain when separated. Dementia, schizo, psycho, nerotic, and every other brain disease should set in till the brain explodes from an aneurism of some kind.

I know I would rather be dead, than just a brain.

sufusci is right on track with this... Within the next 2-3 decades the tools and knowledge will be available for humans to prolong life long enough to provide a lifespan and capabilities that are left only to the imagination. Even more interesting than the tools and knowledge available to manipulate biology, will be the emergence of true AI self aware systems. These systems will be semiconductor based, but inevitably another branch will be biologically rooted. Once AI does become self aware and has the capacity to self propagate and to improve on itself, that is where a big question will arise. Will AI choose to allow humans to dictate its actions? Most likely not. It's going to be a most interesting future.
I predict a complete merging of technology and biology in the next 4-5 decades. We will witness a branching of what it means to be human and the definition of intelligent life. In some cases, that branching will involve the merging of technology and biology creating human hybrids limited only by the imagination, in other cases AI will become self sustaining and evolving. The last branch of humanity will be those that reject bio engineering and are left far behind. All of this will happen in the coming decades; it's a lot closer than the average lay person thinks.