Shocking : American army morality

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by MorningStar8741

 

I wrote a paragraph explaining why this article which paints the morality of U.S. soldiers as shocking is nothing but a piece of trash, that attempts to tar and feather the entire U.S. military. I think that by supporting this piece of trash article you are attempting to tar and feather the entire U.S. military.

Understanding why crime rates are higher in war zones and poverty zones is not condoning or excusing the crime, it is simply seeing the underlying causes, something which the article fails to do. The emotional grand standing that this article panders to is not something to overlook or accept. It is far too easy to throw around cheap shot accusations, and it is a very bad habit.

Oh you went much farther than discussing crime rates in poverty stricken areas. I believe what you said was that there were lots of men and they were stressed, so rape happens. Correct me if I am wrong but I am reading it right now.

Anyway, I am not supporting this article, nor the denigration of ALL troops. I am simply pointing out that you cannot pretend it DOES NOT happen. These people should be held to a higher standard than the rest if they are the face of AMERICA spreading our brand of freedom the globe over. To pretend this stuff does not happen or that the numbers in which it happens are somehow ok, or that pointing it out is somehow wrong i just demented. Address the article all you like but do not tell me that I am insulted every member of the millitary and do not try to justify rape to me no matter how you paint that picture. Sorry but bad soldiers are bad for America and that is it. They need to be identified and tossed out on their asses, not ignored or justified by stats.

Ok I have read as much as I could read of this thread (9 pages) Firstly, I have to say Rape IS wrong. I have been accused of rape three times in my life, all three were unfounded, In each Case I was more than 1000 miles away and in the Military when the "rapes" occurred, I was also accused of breaking and entering, again, I was not in the state and for longer than a Month.

This situation is akin to UFO's in my mind, you Believe Rape occurs because of eyewitness testimony, but what physical evidence is there? The military is slanted Towards believing the females, military males exaggerate, it's part of the persona. I myself would not try and rape anyone that would have access to a weapon, EVER, it would be hazardous to my heath, and as some of you have implied, we Americans are a blood thirsty bunch, amazing more Soldiers have not been killed from friendly fire (or have they?)

I believe in equal rights, for all people, the Military does not, Males and females have different physical requirements but have equal pay grades, how is this equality???

No one can condone rape, but what about false accusations? If you think it DOESN'T happen then you are no better than those you are condemning.

Unless there is physical bruising or mental trauma there is doubt, in the military a pregnant female gets a discharge, it happens quite often. Males do NOT have this option. War is Hell and is not a Moral ground at all. ( the bible recounts Numerous times when 'tribes' were wiped out completely, and "God" ordered it)

The Vagina has and always will have more "power" than a penis, this is a fact of nature. however males have, over the centuries, usurped this power, don't think so? What is the antonym of misogynist

In my four years in the Marines the statistics 'allegedly" claimed more male on male rapes than male on female, however I was never raped, nor did i feel inclined to rape anyone nor did I know anyone that WAS raped.

Rape is a control issue, not a sexual one, and the military is all about control, ergo it's no surprise that rape is more predominate in the Military in general. You have to have complete control to make someone put themselves in danger in the first place; Otherwise the military is useless.

The only way to resolve this is to ban the military, or ban females, or separate males and females at all costs. none of these options will happen so just stay the hell out of the military if you are upset about control issues.
( some of you replying to this thread could be construed as "mental cyber rapists" from your very comments, trying to control the thoughts of others )

reply to post by MorningStar8741


Please quote where I claimed that it is ok to rape in war zones.

Your gross misinterpretation of what I said is straight up sleazy, as is this whole thread. These types of gross misinterpretations of the facts are not acceptable.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by MorningStar8741

 

Please quote where I claimed that it is ok to rape in war zones.

Your gross misinterpretation of what I said is straight up sleazy, as is this whole thread. These types of gross misinterpretations of the facts are not acceptable.

Seeing as how what I said was you claimed that it is to be expected due to stress and gender numbers. I never said that you said it was ok. How about you post where I said that you said it was ok or get back on topic ok.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


NO I did not say that rape

is to be expected due to stress and gender numbers

Nor that

that there were lots of men and they were stressed, so rape happens.

Both of these statements are your sleazy interpretations that came from your mind, not mine. It is a clear sign of how perverted your thinking is.

Factors that contribute to crime do not make the crime acceptable. I never claimed crimes are acceptable because of these things. That is your concept, not mine.

Originally posted by poet1b
Wow, this is an old thread. If you go back through the thread and read the discussions, you will see what a piece of crapola this article is. It does not report the number of sexual assult cases reported in hospitals in the civilian world. It doesn't discuss the demographics of the women being interviewed, it doesn't compare any statistics to the civilian world about the number of reports of sexual assault compared to the number of convictions, and it does not address the desparate ratio of men to women in the military that would also contribute to this factor, or take into account the stress factors of being in a combat zone, on both the odds that this would increase the number of assaults and false reporting of assaults.

This article is a tawdry hit piece written with an agenda. It disgusts me.

Ok, let me remind you of what you did say. Why would you need to take into account the male/female ratio? stress factors?

Please explain how stress and ratio make any difference at all. Rape is rape. Unless you are trying to say that more stressed men just leads to more rape, you need to explain your post then.

And once you take these things into account? Then what? What is the conclusion? That you should expect more rapes to happen?

[edit on 10/17/08 by MorningStar8741]

reply to post by MorningStar8741


The conclusion is exactly as I said,

the odds that this would increase the number of assaults and false reporting of assaults.

And I explained further in my first response of why this is the reality.

SOME people tend to act out more, and do things that they shouldn't when in extremely bad situations.

These are realities, and in no way is there an attempt to excuse the behavior.

What is the solution? Or What do I think the solution should be? This is what you should be asking.

This is why women shouldn't be in these types of combat situations. Not only do we see an increase in the risk that women will be sexually assaulted and or falsely claim that they were sexually assaulted, we also tend to see an increase in situations where women are doing sexual favors for special treatment, which doubles the addition to the problem.

You are so eager to condemn U.S. soldiers that you are happy to twist my words into something that I did not say.

reply to post by poet1b


Just saying it is a reality and that it is the way it is, is the exact same as saying it is to be expected is it not?

You are so eager to condemn U.S. soldiers that you are happy to twist my words into something that I did not say.

Is that so? Because I do not feel that rape is anything to be expected, accepted, or understood, I am eager to condemn U.S. soldiers. Is it my fault this conversation is about soldiers? NOPE. It could be any group, my problem is with the way you characterized rape. RAPE. This has nothing to do with how I feel about our soldiers. Unless you have something to back that claim up with, it is just a slanderous lie.

[edit on 10/17/08 by MorningStar8741]

reply to post by MorningStar8741


If pointing out realities is the exact same thing as saying that these things are expected, then when you state that you "do not feel that rape is anything to be expected", then you are saying that you do not feel rape is a reality. You are denying reality.

In other words, you are spouting nonsense. Rape is not something to be expected, but it is a reality. It does happen, and denying that it happens does not serve the interests of the victims, or the public.

reply to post by poet1b


Whatever you say, sweety. We can all read your original post and it is clear that I am not the only one that got the idea that I did from what you said and how you said it. Arguing it with you is pointless and growing farther and farther off topic so I am done. We can all see what you said and conclude whatever we each like. Finessing the point will eventually get you on the right side but I think you can get there without my help.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


SWEETY?

Are you a single, fit, attractive woman 30-40 years of age living near Silicon Valley, CA? Otherwise, I am not interested.

The beauty of forums is that what we say is on record, no he said she said conjecture. I stand by what I said.

reply to post by poet1b


"Sweety" was hardly and offer but thanks for showing us your ego. I believe that what we say being on record was exactly my point. I am sure that many people will read your first post and come to different conclusions. I stand by mine.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


Guess not. Sorry SWEETY

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by MorningStar8741

 

Guess not. Sorry SWEETY

OK, I was being sarcastic. You are just flirting now. I am not sure what you are guessing is not but I am glad we can end this here and just let people read what you wrote and leave it at that.

reply to post by MorningStar8741


No, I am being sarcastic. You went off the edge with the sweety comment. It was pretty left field.

reply to post by poet1b


Whatever, still does not explain what "guess not" means.

What I find ridiculous is the need of armies together with their morality.

There is no such need, that is an illusion. We can be free from war, if we chose that as a race and society.

How to continue to be a slave for the rich:

1. Join the Army.
2. Get brainwashed.
3. Kill people, because it is the right thing to do to save your country, etc.
4. Get shot/hurt.
5. You realize you were used, manipulated, brainwashed.
6. Die because of injuries.
7. You are dead before you have the chance to speak out about it and change this illusion.

Well done serving the rich. The state NEEDS wars TO MAKE ITS EXISTENCE JUSTIFIABLE! No wars=perpetual peace=no need for state/little authority if any is needed.

The state itself is our enemy trying to tell us he wants to protect us. When in fact states send their troops (citizens) to die, so that they might live. Oh the irony.

Never join the army if you desire peace. If you are a selfish bastard, peace is not for you. War creates differences, peace creates unity and oneness. Selfishness has no place in a world of peace.

You are responsible for everything that you experience. Enjoy it!

reply to post by Pericle

I'm a bit confused with your equation of an army and its morality. When you suggest there is no need, I assume you mean no need for a military. Or Army.

Then you suggest we can be free from war.

No rational, sane, prudent person could ever believe in such a thing. Able didn't see any danger, and unaware, it came from his very own brother, Cain. And since that day, you don't always get to choose your enemies, you don't always get to choose your defensive needs, and you don't get to choose whether or not someone just want to up and kill you.

You assume you have control. You don't. You don't control anything in your life. You never did, you never will. You will react to your environment, just like the rest of us. You mention society. Do you really, really know who society is? It's you. It's me. It's that guy over there. That girl over that way. Each doing their own thing, reacting to their own personal environments. We don't individually give a rat's fuzzy ass what society needs! We do for ourselves. And if it happens to fit what "society" is doing, the great!

You don't join the Army (military) because you are desirous of helping the rich. The Army doesn't brainwash you or anyone else. You are still the same core person as before, but now for the overall survival of the group, you are involved in emptying a bit of your personal preferences and needs for the overall benefit of the group. In other words, you sacrifice a bit of selfishness for the benefit of others.

You don't kill people because it is the right thing for your country. You engage enemies that have arrayed themselves against you. You don't fight for your country. You don't fight for your flag. You don't fight for glory. Or money. Or money-changers!

You fight for each other. No one else, and yo unever have done that yourself, or you'd know that already.

Never join the Army (military) if you enjoy peace??? Did you really say that?

The most peace loving among us are its warriors. They are the ones who value it so much that they are willing to fight for it. They fight and eradicate those enemies who threaten that peace so that they may in turn go home and live in peace. They do place their very lives on the line, and often enough die for the chance at that peace.

Just one problem.

There's always one more SOB that needs shooting. Always.

You're certainly right about one thing: "Selfishness has no place in a world of peace."

Oddly, it is your soldiers who are the most selfless of all.

Our soldiers among us struggle the hardest for a world of peace.

Our soldiers at times give it all in the ultimate, unselfish act.

You should be ashamed.

reply to post by dooper


I said "Never join the Army if you DESIRE peace." (Not enjoy peace, big difference.) But if you enjoy peace, why would you need an army? To start wars? Maybe defend yourself, but that makes the world unsuitable for peace.

"Oddly, it is your soldiers who are the most selfless of all."

Are you certain? How selfless are you as a soldier when you kill your enemy so that you "might" live. In the case of USA there is no such thing as "might live", better said so that you might conquer and destroy.

Killing someone for your own good is worse that selfishness, its against civilization. Killing your own people, we are all the same in one single home called Earth, leads to destruction.

"Our soldiers among us struggle the hardest for a world of peace. "

Indeed, by creating more wars, you struggle for peace. Interesting concept. A very nice excuse to wage war, indeed, but illusionary. The circle never ends, more war so that peace will be achieved. Really?

"Our soldiers at times give it all in the ultimate, unselfish act."

You mean their life? I think you forget the lives they have taken.

"You should be ashamed."

I guess I should, how can I want peace without war. How can I question the military, the brave licensed killers of our world. I should be ashamed, yes, maybe because I didn't do enough to stop wars.

I think no person, in their right minds, would be proud that they killed people, even bad people. What is the difference between you and the other one if you both kill people? One is in the army and one is a terrorist? I see no difference just different excuses to kill.

Shame on you, all of you who support wars and the troops. The soldier is nothing but a tool, how sad to be one.

The current paradigm is a disaster. Love war not peace, that is our world today.

reply to post by solo1


Wow.

Okay - so a few women got sexually abused? Well. Did you know there are also men in the Army, Marines, etc. who did too? Not just by other military members but by civilians as well? Or - oh wait! There were murders and things of that nature that happened soldier on soldier - civilian on soldier?

You don't have the authority to claim that every single one of us has no morals just because of something you read on CNN. I'm sorry but it's filth like you who make our job harder than it already is. To have to sit here and stomach this crap coming out of your mouth while we uphold the constitution (which, last time I checked.... is still there) - - and a note: If you are from any country other than the US, you don't have the right to tell me what rights are and are not being taken from us - -

So take this article and shove it where the sun don't shine, because you're not doing anyone a favor here.

American Army Morality.

People like you are lucky there are laws and geneva conventions.

Take my post, dissect it and cry.

I don't care.