school is a set back, page
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reply posted on 1-8-2008 @ 08:35 PM by argentus
I think I understand what you're saying.
this creates a downgrade in iq and if you look at the relevent studies also abolishes the happiness advantage and deconstructs both the will to learn and detracts from how quickly you learn.


I don't think you can support that statement, in that the establishment of a person's IQ involves a measurement (test) which is a cultural measure at best, and a skewed abstract reasoning experiment at worst. So, I think it'd be somewhat of a misnomer to state that school creates a downgrade in IQ. Certainly seems likely, however, that it abolishes some of the happiness of just doing what one wants. I think it creates an atmosphere (with a really GOOD instructor) that augments the ability to learn, and hopefully the will to learn follows. I remember my Mom teaching me to read when I was yet two years from 1st grade. That made me a voracious reader -- a habit which continues to this day. School can be an absolute drag, and I found it so too. It wasn't until I had to actually pay for my own education that I started taking responsibility for it.

Good thread. Good ideas. You are growing up in an environmental influence that I did not have -- one of concern for being controlled by "others", i.e. government, NWO, etc. Back in the day, the government was not my enemy -- it was my protectorate. I'm sorry the world has shifted to this dismal point, and I don't think your perceptions are unique -- I think there are many people entering into school, college who share this belief. You have to take more responsibility for the outcome than I did. That bites, and I wish it weren't so, but I think it's true. It won't help you at all to agree with 27 of your mates that the deck is stacked against you and your free thoughts. There were those of us who fought the system in my day too. It's a progression, and you are our future. I just wish we could've done more to not screw it up for you. You are young, and you are strong. You will find more of your strength as you make your direction. Maybe in the same way that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger"...... maybe that same adversity will make your generation create the fissure in the system that makes it work for everyone. I have high hopes.

If I've presumed too much (that you are in school and young) then please forgive me my ramblings. I have positive hopes for the future of humanity. I don't think it's the system that needs changing, but perhaps our paradigms of what is beneficial toward shaping our future.

Keep pushin'. It's better than the alternative.





[edit on 1-8-2008 by argentus]


reply posted on 1-8-2008 @ 08:58 PM by TheRedneck
OK, let's talk about the current system. Every child is given a chance at an education. Mine have been, and there have been times during their school that I was unemployed and flat broke. The bus still ran every morning and evening and the teachers still let them into class. But no one can pour knowledge into their head; they have to want to learn.

You mention creativity and intuition. Exactly how do you teach that? Last time I looked, both attributes were more talent than learned skill. What needs to be taught is how to do math, scientific principles, proper english usage and spelling, and some history of the world and the nation. Those things are needed no matter what you do in life. Art is subjective and personal. So is writing, music, singing... you cannot teach a talent, but you can teach the basics of the world we live in so the student may be more prepared to expand his/her creativity.

We do live in a world that is more geared to learning rote than to learning inquisitive thinking, but I don't think that's the fault of the schools. It's all through society. I used to have a set of "Building Blocks" when I was young, similar to the Legos of today, but free-form. I could build any structure I could dream up. I couldn't build what others had dreamed up, because there were no instructions, just a bunch of interconnecting blocks. I had to provide the instructions. TinkerToys were similar, but I could build machines. They gave a few examples, but I had already learned to use my mind from the Building Blocks. My nephew has a collection of Legos costing well into the thousands of dollars. they are intricate and involved, but they are designed to build one toy... ONE! No imagination required or allowed, follow the directions. Want to build something else? Buy another set.

You don't learn creativity at school, you learn it at play. And you need a void of specific directions to do that, a void that is conspicuously absent today. I fail to see how filling an already over-filled void with something new (school instruction in 'creativity') will create a void.

I can't come up with an elaborate system to fix things, sorry. The elaborate ones do not seem to work. I can come up with a simple one though. Teach the children and forget about indoctrinating them against religion and toward specific lifestyles. Those things belong at home, not in public school. Quit worrying about their ego; it's like a muscle, tear it and it heals stronger. Forget fairness of outcome; life isn't fair. Reward those who do good, and those who improve, and use those rewards to show the others what they can do as well if they put forth an effort.

Hire teachers that want to teach, not nannies who want to stay in school. Quit drugging the kids with Ritalin; practice discipline instead. Have principles who are leaders, not wimpy agenda-pushers with delusions of grandeur. Let parents get involved; you don't have to force them to. A parent should be welcome in the school, not seen as an intruder as happens so much today. Don't be afraid to fail a kid if they deserve it. And get the *&$^% federal government out of our schools! They do nothing but make things worse.

All these things can be summed up in one simple statement: go back 30 years to when we had the greatest educational system in the world. Only the facts have expanded; the kids haven't changed. The social experimentation with our schools is completed. It failed. Miserably.

reply to post by mopusvindictus
The ability for the gifted to excell is what we lack in the current system...

Right as rain. Starred for that.

TheRedneck


reply posted on 1-8-2008 @ 10:58 PM by Vitruvian Man
reply to post by argentus


I'm 20, from the UK, and I found that the education system here is set up in an outdated and oppressive fashion. Rather than encouraging young minds to explore their full potential, schools here require that you get good grades so they can ship you off as a quiet and humble member of society, no trouble to the system.
If you disagree with the system and the way things work, then school becomes an incredible burden, and a very un-enjoyable experience . There is nothing wrong with wanting to live your life a different way, yet schools in the UK actively pressure you to live your life the way society decrees you should. For example, during my entire education, I was told that I HAD to get good grades if I wanted to be happy and have a fulfilling life... sorry to break it to you, Education Authority, but that is simply not true. Obtaining good grades and a university education would allow me to get a well paid job, maybe a bit of power and authority, but who says these are the things I want? I'm quite happy living my life as I see fit, and no-one should presume to tell others how to live their life. I, and many others my age, want no part in the capitalist rat-race that the education system pushes us towards throughout our school years.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone. Some kids are inevitably going to become bricklayers or secretaries or gardeners etc. Ergo, they are not a part of the aforementioned rat race, and teachers understand this. But with children who show the slightest hint of an above average intelligence, they are hounded and pushed towards pursuing high-pressure, high-profile careers. It doesn't matter if you are intelligent, but would rather spend your life surrounded by family and friends, hoping for and working towards a better future for us all. The educational doctrine seems to be "Got brains? Push them through university and into a nice, average, easily controllable life, where they can make lots and lots of money for themselves and the State."
The reasoning behind this I can only guess at, but I imagine it would have something to do with really quite stupid people thinking that money is the only measure of success. Well, true success is not defined by how much money you've hoarded, it is defined by doing the things you truly want to do. Personally, I feel I'm a successful person. I earn a low wage, I haven't been to university, and I rebelled all through my school years*. However, I manage to own my own flat, I do things that keep me stimulated, such as reading and contemplating philosophy.I have excellent, fulfilling relationships with family and friends, and I try my hardest to be a nice, helpful dude. What's wrong with that?
And yet society and the education system continually tell me that this way of life isn't right. I imagine people reading this will be familiar with the theory of the Age of Aquarius? Humanity realising a greater collective consciousness and finally beginning to work together, as a species? Well, the children are the ones who will have the most impact on this theory, as they say, they are the future. But how can we expect them to have greater respect for their fellow man, if for the first 16 years of their lives, they are bombarded by this single conformist message? With a message like that, there will always be a divide between people. Wouldn't it be better to teach children Maths, English and Science etc., whilst simultaneously teaching acceptance and appreciating that different people follow different paths? The Lord Mayor is no better than the bloke who didn't want to be Mayor, they just live by different priorities. Until schools accept this, education will always be a burden to a fair percentage of students.
*By rebelling, I mean I refused to be indoctrinated, thus earning me the enviable labels of 'troublemaker' and 'lost cause'. Never mind.


reply posted on 4-8-2008 @ 05:51 AM by Mcloud313
I often felt like I wasn't learning much of anything in the American Public School Systems, I think it was once I turned the age of fourteen or so and began highschool I started noticing things, with the exception of a few classes I wasn't seemingly learning much of anything just going over the things I had already learned in previous grades and reinforcing their prescence in my mind.

Also I began to notice that alot of the tests were getting easier and easier, and I could get 90+% scores on tests I hadn't even studied for. I realized alot of my tests were just fill in the bubble tests and as I progressed through highschool I noticed that there were less and less essay questions to allow students to really show that they understood the material.

Instead I can guess and have a 25% of getting the answer correct without even knowing anything. I had a few more problems with school, my theory was that they were making everything easier so their average grades went up and there for they could get acredited, and increased money from the school district. I noticed some days on horrible weather where they would have us come in only to dismiss school in the middle of the day, I often wondered why this was only to later realize that the school made money based upon their attendance average, so having us all come in that morning got them money rather than call off school for the whole day or teach us something since we were already there at the school.

Suffice it to say I have large problems with the american school system and I think it needs to be majorly revamped. I think a strong improvement would be giving the federal government control over all of the school systems, I realize this sounds scary but I think we'd be much better off when you consider some city school districts that do absolutely terrible and some school districts that do amazing. We need some form of standardizing in our education system I believe whether for the good or the bad.

Also I think that the curriculums need to be improved with more essay questions, and hands on teaching rather than take notes and take bubble tests...I think teachers should be paid more as well and classes should not be larger than 20 students.
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