Conspiracy against God

reply to post by re22666

no evidence that god has ever made his presence known to anyone

are you telling me i don't have personal evidence? i swear, this is like that guy who told me that the way i raise my children can't possibly be impacted by my own thoughts.. i mean the cartwheels some people will turn to deny me my own thoughts and experiences, is pretty ridiculous.

[edit on 2-8-2008 by undo]

I do not totally pass judgment on those who do not believe in God. If they want to make science ahead of God then isn't this making God into their own image? I have no problem with that considering "God" made us in his image. But it is never going to happen with how human beings try to understand God if we look for science. Just 500 some years ago the large portion of the world that believed in Science thought the world was flat! This same science teaches evolution so imagine what they are leaving out? I'm sure in another 100 years they will claim evolution was wrong in a lot of ways but also right...I mean some parts of the world are flat right?

Originally posted by clg79
I do not totally pass judgment on those who do not believe in God. If they want to make science ahead of God then isn't this making God into their own image? I have no problem with that considering "God" made us in his image. But it is never going to happen with how human beings try to understand God if we look for science. Just 500 some years ago the large portion of the world that believed in Science thought the world was flat! This same science teaches evolution so imagine what they are leaving out? I'm sure in another 100 years they will claim evolution was wrong in a lot of ways but also right...I mean some parts of the world are flat right?

This isnt a personal attack...but surely its better for science to evolve,make mistakes correct mistakes...than have an ancient book set in stone that never changes and is for the most part incorrect...

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by re22666

 

no evidence that god has ever made his presence known to anyone

are you telling me i don't have personal evidence?

i swear, this is like that guy who told me that the way i raise my children can't possibly be impacted by my own thoughts.. i mean the cartwheels some people will turn to deny me my own thoughts and experiences, is pretty ridiculous.

[edit on 2-8-2008 by undo]

no no no, you missunderstand and i appologize for the implication. you may have personal evidence of the existence of god but...that is not proof. that is subjective evidence that could never be substantiated to another living person. that is not proof. sorry. i do not mean to discount your personal experiences or beliefs, honestly. not on this thread anyway, lol. come on that was a joke. anyway, what i said was proof. and what you just expressed does not count as proof anymore than if i were to say that i have personal evidence of the flying spaghetti monster. my personal evidence against yours.
i am glad you believe and feel you have evidence for it. i am speaking of proof. i am respondng to the OP. why god is hated and the lack of proof for him and such and so on. not undo's personal enlightenment. sorry to make you the focus again, i forgot that derails things.

there's totally nothing wrong with believing in anything, but every one this day and age knows the BIBLE was intiated to control masses. The old school version of laws. GODS white in our bibles hahahaha... that in itself shows issues...

Christians these days are totally off point for sure. break all rules of the bible and confess your sins, and your foregiven???

We really need to wake up and get with the times. RELIGION seperates and makes us HATE. who do we hate, those that arent of the same religion????

I consider myself SPIRITUAL and not really religious...

that is not proof

Yes it is proof, to me. And, according to even your own paradigm, that's what counts. If I have free will , capable of reaching my own determinations, free to think my own thoughts, then I also am free to have my own experiences and consider them proof if to no one else but me. It's nice that other people also have experiences of the supernatural or hypernatural variety because I know then that my experience is shareable. And sharing an experience is edifying.

Like many others, it's not so much God that is hated, but what God stands for, and what has been done in God's name.

Think back to every major war and conflict in human history. How many were religious based? Even the great World War I and II had roots in ethnic/religious cleansing. 90% of all major global conflicts have been over religion and/or territory. Even in this day and age where more people than ever are reasonably educated, people keep killing each other in God's name.

I have known many different people, both Christian and non. I've met many Christians that attended church every Sunday, prayed at every meal, that thumb their nose at nonbelievers, trod on the poor and unfortunate, rape their children and kill their wives (www.cnn.com...).

I have known many people that volunteer their free time at the local YMCA to teach swim lessons to children, that volunteer at Muscular dystrophy camps for children, that pick up garbage on the street as they walk by because no one else will, that are respectful of other people, that are lower-middle class but grateful for all they DO have instead of all they DON'T have. They are agnostic.

You're religion shouldn't make the person you are. I don't beleive in the same God as the bible/Qu'ran/etc say; but i'm a good person at heart and soul. If I'm wrong, and it turns out when I die and I'm standing in front of the Almighty One, what would I say?

I would say nothing. Because I would have nothing to say. If God is God, he'll already know all he needs to make his judgement on me, asking a question is a mortal line of thinking. God needs no questions. But the truth as I see it is- there is no God (at least as not as we think of God). When you die, you die. It's that simple. What do you remember from before you were born? Thats right, nothing. Because you didn't exist. When you die, you go back to non-existence. No memories, no conciousness, nothing. You're mind simply disappears. Disturbing to think of? You bet it is, because your brain is hardwired for survival, and thinking of your existance as temporary would endanger your sanity. If you truely knew and understood how little your existance means, people would commit suicide or harm others and just go out of control. The concept of God and an afterlife helps keep people sane, and gives them a 'purpose' to life.

I've long ago accepted this truth for myself, and although life may ultimately be pointless, I've decided to enjoy it for as long as I do have left. And I've dedicated myself to helping others enjoy their life, to appreciate what they've got, to see and understand the truths of life in this world (and beyond) through all the mis-information that clouds peoples heads. And I honestly feel I found what the Buddhists call 'Nirvana'. I feel an intense calmness about everything. I don't get upset at little things anymore, I'm healthier and happier than ever before, and I make everyone else around me feel good about themselves as well. That makes a fulfilling life, and when my time comes, I'll smile as I let go, knowing I died happy, and making life better for everyone else. I'll slip back into non-existence gratefully.

All this- without having to shackle myself to a God. If I'm wrong, and I open my eyes in front of Him; then as I said, I will have nothing to say. My life and actions speak for me.

Originally posted by undo

that is not proof

Yes it is proof, to me. And, according to even your own paradigm, that's what counts. If I have free will , capable of reaching my own determinations, free to think my own thoughts, then I also am free to have my own experiences and consider them proof if to no one else but me. It's nice that other people also have experiences of the supernatural or hypernatural variety because I know then that my experience is shareable. And sharing an experience is edifying.

i cannot wait until christmas to get you a dictionary. proof that is valid only to the person proclaiming it is a paradox by definition of the word "proof." I am sorry, what you have is personal experience that to you is beyond a shadow of a doubt. unfortunately, that only counts to you, only proves things to you, and therefore is no more or less valid than my assertion that i have personal proof that there is NO god.

and ps...the baby would never hear from god according to his "own teachings." he gave that gig up and subcontracted it to moses, jesus, muhammed. and with muhammed, the message was complete and given in whole. therefore, god was done both talking, as well as hiring pr guys. i am afraid that baby would be left in the dark until it died and apparently went to hell for denying a god that is was never given a reason to know or believe in.

reply to post by Sage08


i guess this is where it gets so muddled. you take an actual practicing Laveyan satanist and he follows his church's rules, he stands a far better chance of entry to christian heavan than most christians i have known.
what seems to be worse and is even worse for seeming that way, in this day and age, i find fundamentalist muslims to follow more closely what my bible says than most catholics or any other bible thumper i know. but say out loud that i respect true islam around my republican friends...and they want me to go back to satanism.

reply to post by re22666


well it also fits the further description because i'm not the only one retaining the experience as a proof, so it's more than just me experiencing it. truth these days is determined on the words of a few who have been given the authority in society to say.. "this is the truth and here is the proof." as an outsider, you have no way to really verify the proof unless you become one of them (a scientist, for example), so you take it on faith they are either correct or incorrect based on your limited knowledge. i took it a step further and actually joined the group, accesssed the experience so i could prove to myself one way or the other and i have my proof, and it fits all the same criteria.

reply to post by Sage08


kindess is not the purview of any particular belief system and neither is its polar opposite. i've known nice people from every belief system, and i've known cruel people from every belief system. i don't think being a christian instantly turns you into a cruel person or a nice person. i think it's the beginning of a long journey, and where you're at when you get on it, may vary.





[edit on 2-8-2008 by undo]

reply to post by Ichabod


God doesn't want you to believe he exists.

Why? It doesn't matter if god exists or not because you cannot prove or disprove god. If you could prove god then we would only focus on doing things that please him for the sake of getting his approval. Instead of doing the right thing in each situation for your on moral. It's just that doing the right thing is sometimes hard to define, I think we generally make decisions that best suit our own desires.

Will god send me to hell for not having faith in him? Faith is to have a belief in something that you do not know. Any logical person needs evidence that they can make there own conclusions from.

If there is life after death, I don't fear being judged by a god that gave me one guarantee in this material world, death. I fear being judged by myself, When I've made a decision that I have benefited from at the expense of others.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by re22666

 

well it also fits the further description because i'm not the only one retaining the experience as a proof, so it's more than just me experiencing it. truth these days is determined on the words of a few who have been given the authority in society to say.. "this is the truth and here is the proof." as an outsider, you have no way to really verify the proof unless you become one of them (a scientist, for example), so you take it on faith they are either correct or incorrect based on your limited knowledge. i took it a step further and actually joined the group, accesssed the experience so i could prove to myself one way or the other and i have my proof, and it fits all the same criteria.

proof can be shown.

please do

i was not discounting you, your beliefs, or how well it works for you. but you cannot say you have proof of god. you will not show this proof. noone ever has shown proof. sorry, my dear. what you have is not proof

reply to post by re22666


of course it is, for me and the other people who have experienced it, just like a ufo sighting is proof for the people who see them. just like the understanding when you know you're in love, it's a fleeting something you can't really pindown, although a biologist might describe it as so many chemical reactions, there's a difference between love and lust else we would only love our sexual partners and not care about anyone else, including our own kids. even animals know this. (i think they are offworlders! hehe. animals, i mean. wonder what planet dogs come from...the dog planet...a planet where even the head guys are dogs. heh heh heh).

reply to post by Ichabod
I can only speak for myself, but I am at this point a agnostic which is not a atheist. I do not claim to know it all nor at this point in my time do I believe in any of the so named holy books such as The Koran or Bible were written or inspired by a "single God entity".

Views of what "God" is are changing. We are emerging from being natives on this island earth into the slow realization of all being profoundly inner-connected much like individual cells making up a whole body and that whole body we call "God". We, all of everything combined together are "God". That is why for any of us to do any harm to another is absolutely ludicrous (Like one hand burning the other hand).

That is my opinion and I am very grateful to be living in a country and time where I am permitted to hold these opinions and thoughts without being burned at the stake, drawn & quartered or hung.

Maybe it is not so much "God bashing" you are seeing. Maybe it the distastes of all the previous violence, the hatred, the wars, the witch hunts, all the atrocities perpetrated in the name of "God".

Maybe it's the you will believe as I believe or else your soul essense is damned for all eternity attitude which to my mind is quite a primitive way of thinking.

Everyone's opinion is sacred to themself and that is a good thing. BUT trying to "convert" or "save" others, in my opinion, is simply a power trip.

I don't think people are "bashing God" but rather tired of the endless force feeding of another's idea of what God is.
--
All are but parts of one stupendous whole, Whose body Nature is, and God the soul. ~Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man, 1734

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by re22666

 

of course it is, for me and the other people who have experienced it, just like a ufo sighting is proof for the people who see them. just like the understanding when you know you're in love, it's a fleeting something you can't really pindown, although a biologist might describe it as so many chemical reactions, there's a difference between love and lust else we would only love our sexual partners and not care about anyone else, including our own kids. even animals know this. (i think they are offworlders! hehe. animals, i mean. wonder what planet dogs come from...the dog planet...a planet where even the head guys are dogs. heh heh heh).

as usual, i let you lead me so far from the OP to try to convince me to see things your way. here is my way. i can drop a ball an it will fall. i can prove gravity exists. you cannot drop a ball and have it defy gravity and prove me wrong. this is how proof works

we can debate your god still though cant we?

In response to the OP I would say gods bad PR stems only from religion, Christianity in particular. Why do people seek some institution to find god or any other god including satanism?
I'm not religious and a church sermon would be one of the most excruciating tortures for me but I see god or as I call it the cosmic consciousness everywhere in this bizarre miraculous world around me. My perception may be different to yours and that is how it should be but we're all leaves on the same tree.
Some say god is beyond the comprehension of the human mind, I say we are fractal iterations of god embedded within, with a universe externally and a universe internally, In a fractal universe that is where you will find god and man it's pretty freaky in there so beware! Look to the shaman not the priests is all I can say.
The biggest obstacle I think in the god argument is language and it's lack of ability to communicate, I think that is mainly what separates us, but I am a crappy writer.
I feel sorry for those who have lost the mystery. No worries, perfectly balanced by those who feel sorry for my mental health.

Look to the shaman not the priests

reply to post by squiz
Very wise posts.




[edit on 2-8-2008 by ofhumandescent]

God does not exist. There i said it. Religion was first created to explain the unknown. Of course this was before we had the tech to find out for real. "Why is the sky blue?" "Because God made it that way." Its as simple as that. Unfortunately, it endured on into eras of knowledge, growing more and more complex, followers becoming more and more fanatical. Also, if religion did not exist, BILLIONS OF INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN GUNNED DOWN, IMPALED, BURNED ALIVE, HUNG, BOILED, GASSED, TORTURED, STABBED, HAD THERE ENTRAILS CUT OUT, BEHEADED, WRONGFULLY IMPRISONED, AND FLAT OUT MURDERED; THE LIST GOES ON.
Religion kills.
"The only thing good to come from religion was the music."-George Carlin
Plus, Science has debunked the theory of Intelligent Design/Creationism. The only thing keeping it alive is people's stubbornness, a tunnel vision keeping them from seeing logic.
I do not wish to insult anyone, but i feel very strongly on this.
If i do have a religion, it would be Universal Unitarian. (Mostly athiest, but open minded.)


[edit on 2-8-2008 by sobek52]

Originally posted by ofhumandescent

Look to the shaman not the priests

reply to post by squiz

 

Very wise posts.

Reminds me of a website that is very interesting: faeryshaman.co.uk...

how is this any different? everyone shares their ideas of what it's about, where it comes from and who does what, where and when and how, from their own understanding or the teachings they revere. there have been bloody wars in every paradigm and in the name of everything, mostly as a cover story for the real reasons which are usually related to things like power and status and money. nice people and cruel people are everywhere. it isn't isolated to any particular paradigm. some of the best advice i ever got was from a satanist. some of the worst i ever got was from a person with the same beliefs as myself. but i also got really good advice from those of similar beliefs to my own, as well. NOTHING IS EVER CUT AND DRY.

and believe me, there have been huge massacres in the name of paganism, socialism, communism, buddhism, taoism, hinduism, and every other -ism you can name, as well. there's not a single way of life in human history that hasn't gathered it's people together for the purpose of conquest, power, money and status, and slaughtered and harmed innocent people along the way. the problem is not religion and never has been. you can say all you want that you're killing in the name of thor or in the name of the earth, but the real reason, at the core of the issue will always be something else related to power, money and influence.