What would you do if someone was beheaded in front of you?

This comes from this thread.


I had to start this because of my strong feelings in the case of civilians not doing anything to help someone being butchered in front of them. I am a very confident and strong advocate for gun permits. I carry daily and would not be caught without it. The simple fact is that unless you have been in a situation where someone is there to cause you or a loved one bodily harm you probably would not feel the same way. I have been on a few occasions and that is what prompted me to get myself and other family members licenses and pistols, as well as training on how to use their weapons.

I for one and not someone that will sit idly by and watch as a fellow citizen is being attacked regardless of if I have a weapon on me or not. What is the difference in this and if there were say a woman being raped in front of you? Would you stop the rapist or just watch? Sure there is a definite risk of bodily harm being that this psycho had a knife, but can you really live with yourself after watching him get butchered and you have done nothing but run?


It outrages me that nobody on that bus even tried to help the guy getting stabbed and beheaded, yet the media has decided they were courageous for jumping off the bus as quickly as possible.

If there are that many people on a bus they can overwhelm a knife wielding maniac pretty easily, yet nobody seems to have even remotely tried to stop this from happening.

There are numerous posters on the other thread that made this about Canada and the US, but that is not what I want to focus on here.....I would like to think that any ordinary citizen that truly cares about society, has morals and values, and a genuine caring for life would have tried to do something for the victim in this case.

I find it appalling that the media would go as far as to call the passengers courageous for jumping off the bus and not trying to help.

Truly sick to my stomach that people still think that it is ok for gov't to keep us unarmed and that this is the safest way to live. It is not....it IS however the safest way for violent criminals to take advantage of a system that favors them now. This guy is being charged with only SECOND DEGREE MURDER!!!!! No weapons just makes it that much easier for a criminal to do their business without the worry of becoming a victim themselves. I know if I were a violent criminal I would be in California where I know most are unarmed. But if you come to my home town in GA there is a law on the books that EVERY homeowner must have a gun......this is where I feel safest...with people that will stand up and not let someone TAKE what is theirs, including their life.

Gun control nuts really bug me with their righteous views on how gov't and police will make everything right. If that is the case then how did this young victim not survive, and how is the murderer only getting charged with second degree murder......ridiculous! Most firearm related murders in the US are not from robberies, they are from gang violence and it stays for the most part in the gang laced neighborhoods. More people still die from smoking and heart disease every year than gun violence.

And I still challenge anyone that is against legal carry of weapons to find some statistic that shows that licensed concealed carry permit holders in fact contribute to unwarranted gun violence. Not that they shot an intruder/attacker, but that they initiated the act of violence against the victim.

reply to post by Vasa Croe


I concur on both points (guns and the redefinition of courage). I live in a county in NE with exactly 1 sheriff and I get no cell phone coverage. Fortunately, it's a peaceful place but all us have multiple guns and everyone knows how to use them. If someone threatened me on my ranch, I would have no recourse other than to defend myself or my family and I would absolutely choose a firearm. They are the equalizer weapon so that brute strength and surprise, like this knife wielding maniac demonstrated, wouldn't be the dominating factors. And this isn't just a 'cop density' issue either. My wife is from the Bronx where cops are everywhere. Her 70 year old neighbors were shot in their bed and her brother's friend was killed in front of the house for his bike.

Because violent crime occurs at the time and place of the criminal's choosing, we cannot depend on third parties providing personal security. We have to be empowered to protect ourselves. In my opinion, the cops try and do their best but the court system is completely broken and doesn't provide an immediate deterrent to criminals of all stripes. I think laws for being 'caught red-handed' that would accelerate the judicial process and summary execution without appeal for violent crimes of the red-handed type would help greatly.

Finally, it's likely that the shock impact of this knife attack put everyone on their heels. I can't judge those people, I don't know how I would react, but I agree that calling them heroes is a real abuse of the dictionary. I think 'survivors' is a better term. You could even say they were smart enough to get out of there before he made it a massacre. I feel very sorry for the relatives of the victim especially because nobody apparently tried to help. Now, they'll get to watch a travesty of justice unfold as the animal who did it is treated with kid gloves so that his 'rights' aren't trampled.

Argggh!

i was thinking the same thing when i heard about this. an entire bus full of people and not one of them was brave enough to stop the man. that is beyond me.

it really puts things in perspective. we as a species have little to no empathy and times like that prove it. as long as it isn't happening to us, we are content to stand around as cattle and watch. it's a shame that no one was thinking, "that poor man, maybe i could be the one to help him." instead they were all too busy trying to get off the bus and away from the man with the knife.

it honestly makes me wonder if they had somehow been trapped on the bus if they would have all just sat there and let him kill and behead them down the line. at what point would someone fight back and try to subdue him? would they wait until he was too tired to saw through another neck bone?

things like that make it more than obvious that this world needs heroes...we're running tragically short of them currently

alot of people are sick enough to look at the head curious and then just walk away

I was actually surprised that out of a bus full of passengers not one of them was the Good Samaritan type.

In these kind of incidents there's always at least one guy who stands up and tries to lead the pack and is actually willing to risk his own skin to save everyone else.
An old ex-military guy, a karate instructor, a bouncer; I dunno, anyone.

I could understand if he had a gun or actually threatened the other passengers but he was so focused on this one guy and armed with a knife; it's kind of hard to see how nobody else at least tried to do something.

Then again, maybe we shouldn't be expecting too much from Generation Y and the modern-day Samaritans.

Notice they all ran off the bus. Too concerned with saving their own ass.
While I am surprised nobody stood up to this man, I can understand why they didn't.

This lack of balls is a growing problem in today's societies.
You only need to open your own two eyes to see it.
No respect for elders, no courtesy for women, no chivalry among men, no sense of honour or pride, etc...

People a find a wallet in the street; they keep it, they see a person asking for directions they ignore them, they drive by a car crash, they just keep on driving, somebody insults their sister, they just smile and laugh.

Nothing's worth the trouble these days it seems.
There's will to further the common good, to help your fellow man, to win some points with the man upstairs maybe, do a good deed each day.

Nope. It's dog eat dog, survival of the fittest, nobody has the time or patience for the slow, the weak or the injured. Their already forfeit in everyone's mind.
Just how it is.

[edit on 1/8/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by Vasa Croe


Completely agree with you. I carry every day just so I wont be a victim. Too many in our society have gotten soft thinking big brother will watch over them. Fact remains, no "authority" can be everywhere crime happens. Take care of ourselves and try to take care of those around us in a time of need. Sadly, that statement is lost of most people.

I would like to think i would be the one to stand up and try to help, but who knows what i would do. This man has a knife and is obviously insane, you really do have to think about your own safety. It's such a confined space your really risking your neck.

Its fight or flight and ti looks like everyone on board the bus decided flight was the best option. IMHO anybody who wasnt on that bus doesn't get to question anyones balls - or lack thereof. Its all to easy to sit and say you would have done x y and z from your computer or if you had a gun. Its a whole new ballgame when its a psychopath with a knife in an enclosed space.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
I was actually surprised that out of a bus full of passengers not one of them was the Good Samaritan type.

In these kind of incidents there's always at least one guy who stands up and tries to lead the pack and is actually willing to risk his own skin to save everyone else.
An old ex-military guy, a karate instructor, a bouncer; I dunno, anyone.

I could understand if he had a gun or actually threatened the other passengers but he was so focused on this one guy and armed with a knife; it's kind of hard to see how nobody else at least tried to do something.

Then again, maybe we shouldn't be expecting too much from Generation Y and the modern-day Samaritans.

Notice they all ran off the bus. Too concerned with saving their own ass.
While I am surprised nobody stood up to this man, I can understand why they didn't.

This lack of balls is a growing problem in today's societies.
You only need to open your own two eyes to see it.
No respect for elders, no courtesy for women, no chivalry among men, no sense of honour or pride, etc...

People a find a wallet in the street; they keep it, they see a person asking for directions they ignore them, they drive by a car crash, they just keep on driving, somebody insults their sister, they just smile and laugh.

Nothing's worth the trouble these days it seems.
There's will to further the common good, to help your fellow man, to win some points with the man upstairs maybe, do a good deed each day.

Nope. It's dog eat dog, survival of the fittest, nobody has the time or patience for the slow, the weak or the injured. Their already forfeit in everyone's mind.
Just how it is.

[edit on 1/8/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

absoutly dead on. Shame were all sat here though and we aint in a big group physically. Shame there is no one like ourselfs, werid really.

its not a nice world no.

don't completely discount the young people. i was in a bar on my college campus once. it was packed. a couple got into a fight and the guy hit his girlfriend. about 4 dudes instantly proceeded to be the hell out of him for hitting a woman.

i'm 27 now so i don't know which generation (x or y) i classify as. i'd like to think i'm a gentleman - i treat people with respect by default, i never went after girls just to "get some", i frequently find bank cards and credit cards the people have dropped or left behind and i always turn them in... don't lose hope on us. we're not all a-holes. =)

i've never been faced with a life threatening situation myself so i can't say exactly what i would do. i'd like to think i would be "that guy" that takes the risk. i would at least consider the possibility that i'm at risk whether i intervene or not. in that scenario it seems like it might be better to act than to have him running around stabbing everyone anyway.

Since you put this in 'survival' I will answer accordingly..

The people on the bus did the right thing.!!

The victim would have stood little chance of survival within seconds of the maniac's attack.
Cutting the jugular and the airway is a tricky wound to 'first aid'.

It would only be worth endangering yourself and others IF there was a chance of saving lives..either the victim or possible further victims.

The punishment is scandalous though.

I think most of us would like to think we'd try to help the victim out like this..





But in reality, I think most people would run for their lives like the passengers did were they ever confronted with a knife or gun wielding foe.

Well....I put it in survival because that seemed to fit the scenario the best. If there were another section called "Call to Action" it would have fit better. I am pretty young....31....and feel that the people I surround myself with have the same mentality, as in they would help out their fellow man in a situation where life is endangered.

Granted there are extremes such as someone with a bomb or a fully automatic weapon holding hostages, but this situation is one where the other passengers could have made a difference. You do not die instantly from stab wounds unless a vital organ, such as the heart is punctured. Even a cut to the jugular takes a bit to bleed out, and even if the victim was going to die these people just stood by and let him be defiled in every sense of the matter by allowing the attacker to continue his violent actions.

I am not ex-military or LEO, but do have many friends on the force and active duty. I also train with these guys and believe there are others out there that would have the same reaction to events such as these as I would....try to stop the attack.

There truly is something wrong with society though in this sense, and it is most likely a compounding of multiple factors such as desensitization, morals/values, and upbringing. I think few hold themselves accountable for their own actions anymore and are always looking for the easy way out. But there is always a place for everyone in society....someone has to flip the burgers and someone has to be the murderer (not that the 2 have anything to do with one another....just a point).

It is nice when you hear about a good citizen helping someone out in a time of need, and I believe there are a lot that do good for many, such as volunteers at soup kitchens, and battered womens shelters and such. It just irks me that NOBODY helped and media is so f'ed up that they went as far as to call the passengers courageous! There is no courage in running for your life, and while I understand why they did it, they are not courageous for these actions. You either have the knee jerk reaction to help or you don't, and it is becoming more and more frequent that society does not.

I also blame much of the legal system on reactions.....people are afraid of being sued now....sued by someone that breaks into your home and you shoot them....what type of twisted legal system actually protects the criminal....all of them. There is something inherently wrong with that in my eyes.

I have been the victim of crime.....carjacking in particular, as well as multiple break-ins at home and in car. Nothing was ever done and nobody was ever caught.....this is when I decided to make sure I took care of myself and my family.

The people on the bus may have done the right thing to save themselves, but they did not do the right thing to help their fellow man. This kid is dead and defiled and his family has to live with that. I would be beside myself and would be asking why nobody did anything to help.

While I doubt anyone could have saved the guy who got stabbed, it does frighten me that none of them tried to stop the killer, at least in time before he managed to cut the victim's head off (probably not an easy feat with a knife). Someone should have pacified him instantly to avoid what could have escalated to a massacare where more people lost their life.

I would probably have tried to stop him if my reaction to earlier experiences is any indication. I once effectivly stopped an assilant with an iron bar beating up a guy on my way home from a friend. And back then I was 18 and not a particularly big guy. I did have two friends as backup, but the reaction was instant. I ran towards the problem to try and solve it. The guy ran without a fight, which was probably a good thing for me, but I will usually try to assist in any scenario. If there is a problem or emergency I will usually seek it out and offer assistant. I never run from a scene, and I never just stand there with my mouth open like a zombie. Apathy and panic are two conditions I shun like the pest.

The thing is though, I have never seen someone have their head cut off before. Actually I have never exactly seen someone being killed the second it happened either, so I do not know how I would react. I both hope and believe I would avoid panic or apathy and try to help, but the situation is extreme. Anyone could become panic-stroken by the sight of someone being decapitated randomly on the bus. Trying to get away is not an in-logical or bad desicion. Still I don't enjoy reading how people react to stuff like this. They are all lucky he didnt grab hold off someone else and killed again. I would never seriously rip on the passangers for how they reacted, because I could very well have done the same even though I hate the thought of it. The media is way off calling them courageous, but I guess it is a way for the media to pat the backs of those who witnessed it. I didnt like their reported reaction, but I still feel with them. Probably not a fine experience.

don't completely discount the young people. i was in a bar on my college campus once. it was packed. a couple got into a fight and the guy hit his girlfriend. about 4 dudes instantly proceeded to be the hell out of him for hitting a woman.

Totally different scenario. They didn't risk anything. Just a good excuse to beat someone up. I would of course react to something like that and maybe even use physical force to stop him if he was overwhelming her (a lot of women can defend themselves perfectly well), but it's not really the most heroic tale I have heard.




[edit on 1-8-2008 by me_ofef_seraph]

[edit on 1-8-2008 by me_ofef_seraph]

Street fighting vs Psychopathic fighting...I think there is a difference. I don't remember watching Bas's "How to deal with Rambo knife holding, beheading ,psychopathic killers" video, and if he does produce one I think he'd even be shocked (on how to train for one). Only special ops guys who have seen the worst possible situation could react. Get those American Soldiers training civilians and they'll tell you how to react. Remember these were "Civilians" that got attacked not trained soldiers. Give the people a break! Not everyone has the "War" mentality and if they do it is probably genetic. There are people trained for war, and people trained to be doctors. Just as there are people genetically wired for fighting and those wired for "surviving" there is a big difference in how one reacts to any situation.

My dad has been shot, stabbed, and been in many brutal street fights. Not once did he say he knew how to handle a psychopath but to use any means to bring that person down. This means...you don't know how to react to a crazy person even if you think you are the baddest person on the planet. Ask some of those UFC guys how they would react and honestly they would not know how, but ask someone like Bas, Tank Abbot, and some of those Brazilian fighters and they could "Recommend" how to react but bottom line it isn't no walk in the park for regular civilians.

reply to post by Vasa Croe
Very few people have any fight left in them nowadays. They've been cowed down by laws that penalize you for defending yourself, or have been totally indoctrinated against violence of any sort by the politically correct crowd beginning in headstart.

You have zero tolerance school policies that arrest five year old, in most states you have a duty to run from an attacker rather than fight back, you can be sued by burglars if you harm them, rape victims are treated like the criminal until they prove they didn't ask for it, etc.

With all the negatives that are associated with fighting back, is it any wonder most people are apathetic to these type of crimes, and only look out for themselves?

reply to post by Vasa Croe


I'm the same as you.. I would have jumped on the guy out of gut re-action.


But.. 'Bleeding out' isn't the prob.. Air in the bloodstream reaching the brain is..I believe.."air embolism "
Better ask one of the experienced field meds here.They'd explain it better.
Lloyd or Dan..

reply to post by clg79


I agree with you there, but I am not talking about a street fight either. I am not military or leo, but do train for CQB situations regularly with knives and guns. When someone is using deadly force against you or someone else you are not going to go at them simply to hold them down...you go at them with the sole intent of stopping the action whether it means death or not to the attacker.

A simple knife to the underarm, groin, across the side of the neck just under the jaw, or through the base of the skull (spine) will sufficiently drop someone pretty quick. There are no long drawn out motions and they are simple techniques. It is just the mentality that has to be there in order to carry out the action.

Simply put, not everyone in the world can or will train for a situation that may occur or not, but with enough people on board that bus they could have kept the attacker from causing any more harm to the victim.

Would I have gone in after him....yes, but it may be because I have trained and do have the confidence in my ability to quickly and sufficiently stop an attack such as this one. Most likely the guy was some crazy with no training himself in which case stopping this attack would have been that much easier.
Could I have gotten hurt....of course....but I could not sleep if I did not try to help someone in a situation like that.

I see people here using the word 'decide' as if the fight/flight/freeze-response is based on logic and reasoning. Thankfully, it is not.

In such a situation the part of the brain that consciously evaluates situations and possible outcomes is bypassed. Instead, an older, faster, part of the brain takes over control of the muscles. This system is geared toward nothing but self-preservation. Therefore I believe it is unfair the judge the personalities and moral fiber of the passengers for choosing the 'wrong' course of action in fleeing as the 'choice' was no choice at all.

Furthermore, it is impossible the predict our own conduct in such situations because being able to ponder such questions means we are in full control of our faculties at this moment. Take some of those faculties out and there's no telling how we might respond.

I believe the only way to prevent losing control and fleeing in such situations is through extensive training. The brain would have to be rewired in such a way that the assailant isn't considered a threat by the oldest brain structures to our personal wellbeing whatsoever. I do not believe being trained in the use of a weapon and perhaps even standard police- or military-training is sufficient (although I know of no research to substantiate my opinion).

Originally posted by me_ofef_seraph

Totally different scenario. They didn't risk anything. Just a good excuse to beat someone up. I would of course react to something like that and maybe even use physical force to stop him if he was overwhelming her (a lot of women can defend themselves perfectly well), but it's not really the most heroic tale I have heard.

that was more of an example of chivalry rather than being brave and taking action. =)

reply to post by Symer


I would agree to an extent. I do think that some are wired to fight instead of flee. Whereas in certain situations there could be a choice given how much time that person needs to process the situation and understand the risk. I believe everyone is capable of this. Training can help in a situation by giving the person enough confidence in their ability to diffuse said situation in the proper manner and with the correct amount of force required.

While I also agree that training alone is not a sufficient argument for taking action, I believe that some people make decisions quicker than others and some react in a more aggressive manner towards a threat. I would think anyone being attacked would fight for their lives, so why when they watch someone being attacked would they not fight as well.....because they themselves are not being attacked is why. There is a thought process involved....not just instinct, though it may be a very quick thought it does occur.

Would the situation have been different if the guy had turned to attack another passenger? Then what would you do? Each passenger would have had time at this point to assess the situation. Would this have made a difference in the decision? I think like you said....some are just wired to do something while others are wired not to.