Science Proving 'Global Flood Myth' true - Dating for Prehistoric Civilization Legitimized!

Alternative explanations have been proferred and the date these features appeared also seems in doubt. They do look like the results of an impact event though. IMO.



Agree this may be indicative of an impact evident



Agree this may be indicative of an impact evident



Only in North America All the large ice age mammals of Africa, for example, survived. And there is no evidence these extinction occured overnight (according to fossil record) - it appears to have been a matter of several thousand years with some species disappearing before others (woolly mammoths became extinct - so far as we know - about 4,000 years ago) and these extinctions also coincided with increases in other megafaunal populations. An impact may have precipitated climatic changes that led to declines in population, but that is by no means the only explanation.



I don't know enough to comment on that



There is no evidence that it was entombed naturally. Nor that such entombment occurred withing thousands of years of the supposed impact event. Therefore this seems wholly unrelated.



Again I don;t know enough to comment. I'd have to read his paper and andy subsequent responses in scientific journals.



There's no evidence these occured at the same time though - indeed the evidence points to several releases of water from Lake Missoula (btw one of my favourite book titles is David Alt's Glacial Lake Missoula and it's humongous floods

Pleased to see mention of the Altai flood though - not one that's received much prominence Both the Missoula and Altai floods occurred at a time and in a place where they may well have been experienced by modern humans and possibly given rise to long lasting mythic stories (I think so!) There is, however, no reason to believe either were caused by an impact event.

More on the Altai Flood here:

www.mines.edu...

Some have argued this may have been the source of the Noah's Flood story (though I disagree)

Hello all,

While I don't disagree for the most part with the list, here are the ones I do and why.




Duh!!! That's like saying that during the last major animal extinction many animals died. That goes without saying. Also, whereas there may have been an extinction, there is no evidence it had anything to do with an impact 12,900 years ago/10,900 BC. See the following:

Radiocarbon evidence of mid-Holocene mammoths stranded on an Alaskan Bering Sea island

Holocene dwarf mammoths from Wrangel Island in the Siberian Arctic

Mastodons Driven to Extinction by Tuberculosis, Fossils Suggest

Smilodon fatalis

Saber-toothed cats

North American Short-Faced Bear

Bison (Bison antiquus)

Stag-moose

WOOLLY RHINOCEROS - COELODONTA ANTIQUITATIS

Camelops hesternus - Western Camel

Glyptodon

Giant Beaver

Extinct Giant Deer Survived Ice Age, Study Says

Panthera atrox - American Lion

American Lion - mentioning cave lion Panthera leo spelaea




Except Gobekli Tepe doesn't qualify as a civilization as such and there is no evidence found of any residential structures. Also, it has been proposed that it was abandoned due to water supply drying up.

Gobekli Tepe




No evidence that the three events happened at the same time.

Altai flood - 13,800 to 12,000 BC

Glacial Lake Missoula and the Missoula floods - suggesting 10,000 BC

Lake Agassiz and River Warren - 9,500-9,000 BC and 7,900-7,200 BC

cormac

ESSAN/CORMAC - I agree with your skeptical appraisal of Gobelki, I personally tend towards the idea that it was ceremonial and the inhabitants migrated due to warring or for enviromental reasons.

I will ask Marusek why he holds that assertions, as well as how he came to his conclusions on the the timeline for mass extinctions and the megaflooding of Missoula, Altai and Agassiz. Perhaps he will share his data sources.

I am pleased to see that some kind of consensus it being reached, however tenuous, around comet impact possibly being the cause of the end of Pleistocene era. Obviously the 'truth will out' in the course of time, barring a conspiracy to silence it , and it would be a good thing if we could agree at least on that possibility.

My personal goal with this thread is to open the door enough for those of us who would like to have specutlative threads about pre-historic civs, global flooding etc. that we can engage in a dialogue w/o getting shut-down with the old saw horse of "based on what we know it is impossible" out of the gate. But to be able to get past that and go on to have thoughtful and thought-provoking threads with intelligent skeptics like yourselves.

If we can find a way to agree that legitimate, scientific theories are rewriting what has been considered conventional wisdom, that would be a great step in that direction and I think make the Lost Civ. forum a more interesting place.

I live in hope... and hope I'm not deluded.
Cheers!

CORRESPONDENCE MARUSEK PT. 3
IN RESPONSE TO SKEPTICISM OF -

I paraprashed Essan's comments as they were the most cogent of the last two skeptics that addressed Marusek's list of what he considers evidence of his "Global Flood" Theory. (NOTE: When I say 'they' I am referring to those who are skeptical of his theory.)

TWISI SAID - "The timeline for mass extinctions: their assertions being that they occurred only in North America, saying all the large ice age mammals of Africa, for example, survived. And there is no evidence these extinction occurred overnight (according to fossil record) – that it appears to have been a matter of several thousand years with some species disappearing before others (woolly mammoths became extinct - about 4,000 years ago) and these extinctions also coincided with increases in other mega-faunal populations. While they finally agreed that an impact may have precipitated climatic changes that led to declines in population, they feel the record indicates that is by no means the only explanation."

MARUSEK'S RESPONSE


TWISI SAID - "The mega-flooding of Missoula, Altai and Agassiz: they believe there is no evidence that the three events happened at the same time. And further assert that the evidence points to several releases of water from Lake Missoula, but they were all gladdened that the oft overlooked Altai received some notice, but believe the evidence points to multiple release from it over a period of thousands of years.

MARUSEKS RESPONSE

Here is a LINK for the data he references.

TWISI SAID - "Golbeki: One skeptic chimed in with, “there is no evidence that it was entombed naturally. Nor that such entombment occurred within thousands of years of the supposed impact event”, taking the position that it seems wholly unrelated to the Global Flood Myth Theory".

MARUSEK RESPONDS -


TWISI - "I have a question as to your opinion about the dating of the Carolina Bays. It seems no one can agree on the timeline, and I cannot get clear gist of why that is."

MARUSEK'S RESPONSE


END OF CORRESPONDENCE

I am not comfortable lifting these exchanges in their entirety so, I will now paraphrase him in closing; it is his belief that the evidence supporting his theory has doubled since he published it in 2003. He does acknowledge that while the pieces do not fit perfectly, they seem to be coming together. It is his belief that time will further prove the 'Global Flood Myth Theory' correct.

Most people are putting WAY too dramatic a spin on the impct event itself.
Its not like the event balsted the entire ice cap away, or broke it free??

The ice cap over north america at that time was up to 5k thick in places. When the comet broke up the main portion of the blast was absorbed by the ice, it might have even melted a little of it off. As the hundreds of thousands of larger pieces continued down range, still containing much of the energy of the original object, they would have impacted still being very hot.
I havent seen any speculation as to how far to the south anything would have been killed by the blast itself, but the massive jet of hot air and debris would have continued on till impact. With the larger peices even making it to the ocean.
This started wild fires in the dry forests that bordered the ice and the savanas farther to the south.
These fires would have raged unabated for months, if not years.
The ensuing climatalogical chaos surley would have triggered massive thunder storms from the mixing of hot and cold air and the moisture from the ice cap melt off(small insignificant amount).
These thunder storms would have in turn started fires in areas, far away and unaffected by the initial event.
And north america was very dry at that point in history and would have lit up like california on a hot june day.
A couple of months ago 1 series of thunder storms started 800 fires in one day. There are still fires burning that started on that day.
Now after burning for a few months or maybe even years, the ash and soot generated by the fires would have coated the ice caps, this light coating of darkish material would have acccelerated the melting of the ice cap, they melted off in hundreds of years not the thousands it would have taken other wise.
This accelerated melt off triggered the flip into the next ice age, by shutting off the atlantic conveyor.

There were animals that died as a direct result of the intial explosion, but the overall extinction event took generations to come to a head, through loss of habitat and chnges in climate.
And when people argue that the extinction of megfauna didnt happen in africa, WTF, have you not actually looked at the fossil record. It did just not to the same degree. Its location straddling the equator helps insulate it from dramatic shifts in climate.

More later got to back to work

reply to post by punkinworks

---

Hey Punkin - Thanks for taking the time to respond. If I may, how do you know what you stated above? The whole point of what we are discussing here is Marusek's Global Flood Theory -- which he said would be possible if a COMET hit the N.A. ice sheet during the end of the Pleistocene era -- and combining that with the evidence now coming forward that such an event did indeed happen.

He went into detail about how a cometary impact could affect the ice sheet and in turn cause flooding on an almost global scale, and details how it would impact the Northern Hemisphere with mass extinctions.

Also, keep in mind that what we -- BFFT and I -- are positing is that most of the human population would have been living on the continental shelf in the Northern Hemisphere and the devastation to these civilizations would have been sudden and catastrophic if indeed a portion of the ice sheet broke off into the ocaen.

(BFFT also brought up a most excellent point, IMO, when raising the question of underground water shifting as the land mass responded to the shifting weight of the ice sheets and the overall impact(s) from the comet and cometary fragments.)

I can see that you are taking a very decided stance about what the actual results of the cometary impact was, and wonder if you would share with us the sources that give you such firm, comprehensive and defintive postion.

EDIT TO ADD:


You need to ake that up with Essan and cormac. Guys?

[edit on 5-8-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

Question what would happen if the comet/ asteroid was a large chunk of ice? Would it possiably melt instead of burn up, ran for a long time from the atomizing of the water, and cause massive flooding? If such a asteroid hit would it leave a crater or would it leave a lake or remain frozen a look mor like a glacier still hiding from us today?

reply to post by patrickrpg

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Here is the theory we are discussing that describes in great detail what would happen iof s comet hit the ice shelf/cap over N.A. in that period. This link and others are on the first page of the thread too:GLOBAL FLOOD THEORY THAT IS PROVING OUT

UPDATE: NEW EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF THE COMETARY IMPACT / MASSIVE CATALYSM / GLOBAL FLOOD MTYH:

James Marusek brought to my attention an article that was published yesterday. It seems Allen West has attained samples from some of the Carolina Bays -- the dating and cause of which has been under much speculation in this thread.



LINK TO ARTICLE

This is pretty exciting as the pace of the data coming together to support cataclysmic cometary impact ending the Ice Age is pretty fast and furious... by academic standards.

My memory works fine, thank you very much. Why do you think I highlighted this part?




It PROVED no such thing. The Ice Age was already in decline it, at best, helped it along.




Your suggestions and suppositions are irrelevant to the facts.

Even your latest article says:


So it's still in the realm of speculation and theory and not fact. And even if it is confirmed that the Carolina Bays were created by impact it still doesn't PROVE that it CAUSED the end of the ice age/mass extinction.

cormac

cormac -

I think we are getting into the sitcky-wicket of cross-posting here, so I am going to do this once and carefully. Your quoting me above with a partial sentence misrepresenting the point I was stating -- I said:


The intent being: what the skeptics believed would disprove the cometary impact theory instead proved it out. i.e ET nano-diamonds from Ohio. The very same ET nano-diamonds they are now finding in the Carolina Bays.



The whole point of this thread is marrying the emerging data of the once thought impossible cometary impact over N.A. that brought on the end of the last Ice Age in sudden cataclysm (which on further investigation keeps being supported) with James Marusek's Global Flood Myth Theory. Which, to reiterate, was published in 2002 -- five years before the evidence began to emerge that there was indeed a cometary impact/detonation over the N.A. ice shelf.

If you look at the earlier portions of this thread you will see that he is one of the world's foremost experts in impacts and keeps fancy company. Furthermore he outlines in his theory what kind of global devastation would occur if it were ever found that such a comet impact did indeed occur in that timeframe. ALL OF WHICH EXPLAINS WHY HE THEORIZES THAT THE GLOBAL FLOOD MYTH IS BASED IN FACT AND ALSO WHY EVIDENCE OF ANCIENT CULTURES WOULD BE BURIED DEEP IN THE OCEAN FLOOR.



West also states:



So the excitement here is that science is indeed proving out -- see the title, notice the tense -- (I will take the hit on the "!" though, it should have been "?") Marusek's theory as ever mounting evidence is emerging that there was indeed a massive comet that would have caused global flooding and catclysm in the timeframe we are discussing.

Respectfully.

Exactly. If an impact caused the Caroline Bays and brought about the end if the last glacial, it must have occurred at least 20,000 years ago.

The ice sheets had been in retreat long before the temporary resurgence associated with the Younger Dryas.

reply to post by TheWayISeeIt

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Because that was the part of the sentence that had no business being there. You are trying to show that an impactor was possible. Fine, it's possible. But there is no evidence that the impactor was proven to be the cause of the end of the Ice Age, which is what that sentence suggests.

Your wording of that sentence leaves much to be desired. Either that, or you were intentionally trying to slip one by, hoping nobody was paying attention.

cormac


[edit on 9-9-2008 by cormac mac airt]

reply to post by cormac mac airt

---

cormac, I quoted the whole sentence, and then for clarification, the intent. I am not trying to sneak anything past anybody.

I also doubt anyone else is sharing in that conclusion as I am having to hyper and re-articulate every tiny thing because you are in some kind of nitpicking-nasty-cause-you-got-no-point kinda mood today.

Meanwhile, I'll be back later with many examples of evidence of marine animals that have been and found, around the world that could only have been created by immense, recent, oceanic tidal waves. I do this in the hopes that a dialogue can be had here.

Cheers!

I look forward to discussing your evidence

There is no evidence for the 'global flood' in the geologic record of New Zealand (we are part of the world too, and as such research from here shouldn't be excluded!). There are periods of inundation associated with tectonics and eustasy, but no sudden catastrophe.
Interestingly and on a side note, the Younger Dryas is in question regarding its signature in New Zealand.

reply to post by Essan

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I bet you do. And I know I am remiss in putting some up, I got caught on another thread during my 'ATS time' today. And it is harder going than I thought, as I was, and am running, into a lot of creationist sites -- I should've seen that coming -- and I know that will not do here.

Neverthless, I am slowly compiling data that will. Anon.

Okay – here we go, in trying to stay away from YEC sites and references (which was incredibly difficult... those people are reallydetermined) we get to evidence of massive flooding that would have inundated the habitable coastal regions of the world using academic papers that measure isotopes, etc.

I will also include a few of the more accessible ‘anomalies’ as well to make this more fun to read that it was to research ('')

Let’s start with evidence for massive flooding at Approx. 11, 500 YBP in what is considered the most habitable regions due to the jet streams during the end of the YD Era i.e. Caribbean/Cuba, India and the Mediterranean.

‘GLOBAL’ FLOOD



And also take into consideration the ‘land tsunami’ aspect of the water getting to the ocean and then the impact it had when it arrived. This is not a gentle 23 centimeter rise.

SAME ARTICLE ALSO SAYS

GULF OF MEXICO – CARIBBEAN – CUBA

LINK

Another study of the Gulf of Mexico showing the same dating:



INDIA –

Evidence was found in 2002 of a submerged city and was initially dated to 9,500 yrs old years old. LINK

Further research and dating came back with the astonishing:
LINK

LINK

And I will end this post with some of the ‘fun’, unexplained marine anomalies I so rashly promised earlier.

WHALE BONES IN MICHIGAN & CANADA!


LINK

Okay, have at it. I’m totally burned out right now, but as soon as I can get my will to live back, I will post more data that still needs to be sorted into a cohesive fashion

[edit on 11-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

(bbcode)

[edit on 13-9-2008 by Jbird]

I'm not sure how to calculate the math, but considering 84,000 cu km of water is only 3.7 times the volume of the combined Great Lakes I don't see how it could raise GLOBAL sea level by 23 cm/9 inches. Also, 9 inches of water over more than 9 days is LESS than one inch per day, not exactly a flood by normal standards.




Although there still remains much controversy and a nationalistic promotion of the alleged finds.

Marine archaeology in the Gulf of Cambay




From your own link:



So the dating doesn't even put it back more than 1,000 years. Without evidence to the contrary it's just as possible some varieties of cetaceans managed to use the St. Lawrence River to get to the Great Lakes.

cormac