Science Proving 'Global Flood Myth' true - Dating for Prehistoric Civilization Legitimized!

Hi All,

I am new to this but am going to try to get this started the correct way. My last thread Cuban 'Atlantis' Mystery Solved? Was indeed solved, but not by me.

Nevertheless in the course of that debate the topic expanded and I began to find very recent mainstream research papers which when considered together makes for some v. compelling evidence that the Ice Age ended in sudden catastrophe that created conditions very much like those that are described in the Great Flood of not only the bible, but almost every other civilization known to man.

Please review the last 1-1/2 pages of the the "Cuban 'Atlantis'" thread.

HERE'S THE LINK

You will see the idea begin to emerge with bigfatfurrytexan's speculation and then the evidence we started to find to back it up.

You should also read our Resident Debunker In Chief, Byrd's, first response as well as Hanslune and cormac's as these are sure to carry-over here.... Well, that and it makes for good reading.

I will be back shortly with the data links as I need to post this in order to link the old thread to it.

I'm very much looking forward to all of your comments and responses to the material. Cheers!


EDITED: TO ALTER TITLE OF THREAD as it seems it was not clear what the subject under discussion was.


[edit on 31-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

[edit on 31-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

I am glad you decided to launch this thread. It gives a good place to draw in others who may have already put in hours of research on this topic.

While looking through some references today, i found this information:

The one thing that stands out from all of the evidence is the importance of very large comets that enter the Solar System and break apart, leaving streams of debris that interact with our planet for millennia after the parent body or bodies have been captured and torn apart by intra-solar system forces. That such bombardments of the earth have occurred at other times is becoming more widely known, witness the work of Richard Firestone, Alan West and Simon Warwick-Smith who have identified the Carolina Bays as "air impact" craters from overhead cometary explosions exactly like that of Tunguska. In fact, similar "craters" were found in the Tunguska region with the exact same morphology. This even has been dated to about 12,500 years ago and was global in extent and cataclysmic in effect. Life on Earth almost came to an end. What is frightening about this even is the sheer numbers of craters - upwards of 50,000 of them.


...snip...

This curious report is written in the chronicles of the medieval monk known as Gervase of Canterbury. The year of the event was AD 1178 and the date, 18 June on the Julian calendar, converts to the evening of 25 June on the modern Gregorian one. If real, it is clear that some extraordinary event on the Moon is being described and the meteorite expert Hartung proposed that what was observed and recorded 800 years ago was the impact of a body on the Moon. The flame, he suggested, was the writhing of incandescent gases, or sunlight reflection from dust thrown out of the crater. The blackish appearance of the Moon along its whole length was a temporary suspension of dust buoyed up by a transient atmosphere.



Hartung deduced that if there was a crater, it would be at least 7 miles in diameter, possess bright rays extending from it for at least seventy miles, and would lie between 30 and 60 degrees north, 75 and 105 degrees east on the Moon. ...


As it happens, there is one crater with the predicted characteristics exists, a crater named after the seventeenth-century heretic Giordano Bruno. This crater is located at 36 degrees N and 105 degrees E, within the predicted area. It is 13 miles in diameter and is distinguished by its remarkable brightness, and by the brilliant system of rays which extend several hundred miles out from it.

To me, the important piece is to keep in mind that we are likely not dealing with just one, large impact. We likely are dealing with something that has broken apart extensively.

As well, i don't want to forget the Plasma Cosmology take on this. The charge differential of a comet compared to Earth's ionosphere would be substantial. Very substantial. As it enters our magnetosphere, what effects would we begin to see?

Further, it is of importance to note (as indicated in the article) that man has a wierd propensity to look skyward for omens of impending doom. Latent memory?

I, too, will be back with more. This is a pandora's box, i think.

reply to post by TheWayISeeIt


I'm going to repeat some of the links we used in the last thread here for clarification and so that folks are not 'Cross Posting', which I've gathered is a bad thing. Here ya go.

In 2003 Nuclear Physicist, and expert in comet/asteroid impacts, James A Maruske published a paper that theorized on what conditions would have resulted if a 2 mi. comet/asteriod hit the Ice Cap in 11,000 B.C.

A comet/asteroid impact on a large glacier mass could cause the following effects:
Release vast quantities of heat.
Produce massive earthquakes.
Produce trapped superheated steam that would exert force to uplift and move a large glacier mass.
Fracture glacial sheets.
Eject water, steam and ice high into the atmosphere.
Release stored potential energy.
Produce a partial glacial ice melt.
Produce an almost immediate rise in sea level.
Produce great rainfall.
Slowly driving the ocean crust deeper.
Slowly raising the continental crust higher.
Produce volcanoes and lava flows.
The impact of a large comet/asteroid (~2 mile diameter) with an Ice Age glacial sheet could produce the following chain of events:

The impactor penetrates through miles of thick ice, like a bullet. Below the surface, the impact releases the energy of a million nuclear bombs. A gas bubble of trapped superheated steam forms. The steam causes a general uplifting of the glacier ice sheet. The ice sheet rises like a steam boiler about to burst. The gas bubble exerts tremendous force on the ice flow. The impact triggers the release of potential energy locked in ice flow allowing million of tons to break loose and begins to move on the frictionless fluid bed toward the oceans. Some of the steam escapes like an erupting geyser or volcano. The glacier sheet fractures, opening up fissions for the steam to escape. Boiling water and steam further lubricate the surface boundary layer of the ice flow. The explosion hurls large masses of ice fragments into the air with great force. Ice and water flowing off the continents cause an immediate rise in sea level in conformance with the Displacement Theory. The released superhea ted steam falls back to Earth, generating very violent storms. Heavy rain falls for several days and weeks. The atmosphere heats up.

Large earthquakes combined with the Earth’s crustal rebound from the movement of large ice sheets exert significant strain on the tectonic plates. The strain is relieved by the eruption of volcanoes, and lava flows throughout the world. Underwater earthquakes expose frozen methane hydrate beds. The heat generated at the impact point and the heat from underwater volcanoes and lava flows elevate the temperature of the ocean bottoms and melt the exposed methane hydrate. The released methane bubbles to the surface, where in time it is ignited by lightning strikes, which further raises atmospheric temperatures. The methane burn releases large quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. In the end, the global temperature rises significantly, breaking the back of the Ice Age.

The link to his paper is HERE . I highly recommend it, it is concise and acessable. And at the time he wrote it, highly speculative as there was no evidence for comet's interacting with earth in that time-frame or in North America.

In September 2007 a group of researchers published a paper in National Academy of Sciences and the world reported their findings:

"Research team says extraterrestrial impact to blame for Ice Age extinctions"

"Bunch and Jim Wittke, a geologic materials analyst at NAU, are co-authors of the paper, which fingers an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago for the mass extinctions at the end of the Ice Age. "

LINK

In July of 2008, a few weeks ago, a skeptical research team of scientists -- Assistant Professor of Anthropology Ken Tankersley, working in conjunction with Allen West and Indiana Geological Society Research Scientist Nelson R. Schaffer -- tried to disprove the theory of a comet causing the Ice Age.
Instead Tankersley said this:

"We believe this is the strongest evidence yet indicating a comet impact in that time period," says Tankersley.

I would like to end this post with the prescient James A. Marusek specualated the impact on civilizations that were present for the event:

The end came suddenly. A large comet or asteroid cut its way down to the Earth in a flash and bore through the glacier sheet. For most people, this initial event was so sudden and distant that it might go unnoticed. They would first feel the effects of the impact when a series of massive earthquakes would rumble through a few minutes later. The cities of brick and stone would crumble about them and on top of them. If they looked at the sky, they might notice that it was beginning to take on strange colors before it finally went completely dark.

Survivors would stumble around, trying to free family and friends trapped in the rubble. The sea level would begin to rise at the same time that torrents of rain would begin to fall from the sky. As the hours turned into days and months, the unending deluge would lift the level of the sea by as much as 400 feet, submerging approximately 15 million square miles of coastal land around the world and drowning its inhabitants. This brought to an end the Ice Age and destroyed most traces of the Ice Age civilization that came before us.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Hey BFFT - So glad you came over! You are an invaluable and knowledgable resource in these kinds of dialogues, and I agree I think we are on to something here.

As to the Carolina Bays, you had a typo there, there are actualy 500,000.

And you got 'snipped' taking about your Monk (...odd...did you say something nasty about the monk? ) , so we are at a disadvantage understanding the entire point you are making. But yes, the dust/rocks or, ice converted to water/rocks in this case, and should certainly be considered as part of sudden catastrophic mass extinctions by comet --- as well as the ramifications in regards to the global weather patterns.

Howdy Twisi

Your op is a bit misleading. The "flood myth" usually refers to the biblical and long disproven global flood. While I think we're all talking about a limited regional release of fresh water from a distinct melting of portions of the North American ice sheet.

Hans, always a pleasure to debate with you. Well, it would be more of a pleasure if you actually read the links and the OP's posts, but still good to see ya.

I used that because the jumping off point for this was the first theory published, that I found, about the ramifications of a comet hitting the Ice Cap in 11k b.c. and causing sudden cataclysm was titled:

"Theory Supporting the Biblical Account of the Great Flood" I'm personally not a fan of it, as it sounds like he is pursuing religious goals. But if you read the paper you will see that is not the case.

While I think we're all talking about a limited regional release of fresh water from a distinct melting of portions of the North American ice sheet.

No, we are not all talking about "melting of portions of the North American ice sheet". As I said last night on the Cuban thread, READ THE POSTS you were not present for yesterday with more than a cursory glance. The debate evolved and we found new information that leads to this thread.

If you read the second post I made, which is a recap of what I already posted yesterday, you would be able to ascertain what it is we are discussing. I am intersted to hear your thoughts, because I think this is the thread where you are ging to show how reasonable you are to new information and willing to concede that someone else may have a point.

I live in hope.

reply to post by Hanslune


I think that we are talking about the extinction event that ended the Pleistocene, which is what likely caused the flood myth, Carolina Bays, etc.

Sorry i missed that link, TWISI. Here it is:

www.sott.net...

now you can read it for context. I just wanted to provide you highlights. Was just on a quick lunch break. Now i gotta get back to work.

Howdy Twisi

Hans, always a pleasure to debate with you. Well, it would be more of a pleasure if you actually read the links and the OP's posts, but still good to see ya.

Hans: I did, your point in guessing at this and being wrong is what exactly?

I used that because the jumping off point for this was the first theory published, that I found, about the ramifications of a comet hitting the Ice Cap in 11k b.c. and causing sudden cataclysm was titled:

"Theory Supporting the Biblical Account of the Great Flood" I'm personally not a fan of it, as it sounds like he is pursuing religious goals. But if you read the paper you will see that is not the case.


No, we are not all talking about "melting of portions of the North American ice sheet". As I said last night on the Cuban thread, READ THE POSTS you were not present for yesterday with more than a cursory glance. The debate evolved and we found new information that leads to this thread.

Hans: Actually you are because that is the only time frame we have evidence for a strike on the ice caps that would be close enough to effect Cuba – I suggest you read the posts in the previous thread – in North America. So I would suggest you read your own posts and stop trying to attack people who are contributing and helping you.

If you read the second post I made, which is a recap of what I already posted yesterday, you would be able to ascertain what it is we are discussing.

Hans: I did you’re just being snippy, LOL about you misleadingOP being pointed out to you.

I am intersted to hear your thoughts, because I think this is the thread where you are ging to show how reasonable you are to new information and willing to concede that someone else may have a point.

Hans: What that a meteorite or Comet hit the north American ice cap? Pretty much accepted. What you know have to do is find is evidence that this effected/or how it affected the Carribe.

granted,, i missed the other thread and haven;t read all this yet but.....

i was scanning am radio and listened to this guys theory

how we had a major flood and that killed dinosaurs and such----which he backed up how they were all covered at once----encasing they're bones---another words---full skeletons----if no flood,,, he argued ,,, bnones would be incomplete, and scattered by evnts such as scavengers eating and moving them and a few other remarks

also---he argued they have found seashells on top of these huge mountains tens of 1,000's of feet above sea level----one would ask---how did they get there---did someone carry them up there---highly unlikely

it made sense rising waters covering the enire earth carried or scattered them on the mountain tops

listening to his theory and arguments-and his facts----it made sense and hearing it all laid out---- i believe him,, i guesss

although many called him nuts and said no way-----his argumentsx and facts together made perfect sense

well,,,, anyway,,,i'll be back,,, have to read your info and take it in,,,, as i don't know a lot in this area---but very interesting stuff

so,,, what say you of this theory ,,, although a retelling and incomplete,,,, possible or debuinked?????

interrested to hear

Let us please tone it down. This could be a good thread if we stay on target.

Hans, i think that what we may be postulating here is that the effects were felt worldwide, not just the Caribbean.

There are countless stories of large landmasses falling below the seawaves, some of them even in contemporary times and well documented.

I am looking for a source for a story i once heard about a Spanish mission located on an island off the coast of Spain in the Atlantic. When Spanish ships showed up to resupply the mission, the entire island was missing. The story goes that the island was not small, by any means. If this story is true, surely info on it has to be somewhere. If anyone can find it, i would be much appreciated.

Then you have the whole "Emerald Island" controversy, where we are still not sure if it exists or not, as it seems to not be located where eyewitness accounts place it.

I would say that you don't need anything substantial to see a change in the elevation of the Gulf. Cuba could possibly rise or fall due to other influences that are not related to weather or ocean flooding.

Hans: I did, your point in guessing at this and being wrong is what exactly?

I'm not guessing at anything, I'm putting forward scholarly theories that have been published and that are well on their way to being established fact, given the latest report that came out two weeks ago.

If true, which all points indicate it is, and you consider Marusek's theory, I think we are looking at at whole new way of dating things geologically in the temperate habitable regions of the era.

These temperate areas, geologically, would gave to have been protected from the fierce North/South jet streams by East/West aligned mountain ranges --Himalayas, Caucasus, and European Alps -- in order to be hospitable. i.e. Cuba, India, Mediterranean. ALL PLACES WHERE WE ARE SEEING EVIDENCE OF MEGALITHIC STRUCTURES UNDERWATER.

The catastrophe as Marusek outlines it, and that is his field of research specifically, unlike the Researcher's who recently discovered the proof of the comet's impact, would have been disasterous with flooding on a global scale and a serious reorganization of the earths coastal regions where even today 85% of the population dwells. One could speculate that number would have been much higher in pre-historic times as so much the Earths surface was not hospitable.

Hans: What that a meteorite or Comet hit the north American ice cap? Pretty much accepted.

Really? Because in September 2007 physorg.com, when reporting the first evidence of a comets strike in Canada ushering the Ice Age, they described the as such:

What caused the extinction of mammoths and the decline of Stone Age people about 13,000 years ago remains hotly debated. Overhunting by Paleoindians, climate change and disease lead the list of probable causes. But an idea once considered a little out there is now hitting closer to home.

www.physorg.com...

But glad to know you have been on the cutting edge of accepting a theory that until recently was considered fringe. Cheers!

edit: to move link, 2nd and 3rd edit to fix the quoted Text Box I mangled.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

[edit on 31-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

[edit on 31-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


BTFF - There was also supposedly an island called Sammrina that appeared for a while in the 1800's and then sank again a few years later. But even Earthquakes causing significant vertical displacement is not uncommon in our modern era.

Here's one off the top of my head:
At 5:36 p.m. Alaska Standard Time (3:36 a.m. March 27, 1964 UTC), a fault between the Pacific and North American plates ruptured near College Fjord in Prince William Sound. (The quake oasted 3 minutes.) The rupture occurred at a depth of approximately 15.5 mi (25km). Ocean floor shifts created large tsunamis (up to 70 feet (20 m) in height),

Vertical displacement of up to 38 feet occurred, affecting an area of 100,000 miles within Alaska.
Wiki LINK

edit: to add link

[edit on 31-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

reply to post by TheWayISeeIt


Here's another recent, significant vertical displacement:

The New Madrid Earthquake, December 16, 1811, the largest earthquake ever recorded in the continental U.S. It derived its name from its primary location in the New Madrid Seismic Zone near New Madrid, Missouri. This earthquake was followed by others between January 23 and February 7, 1812. It can be estimated that they had a magnitude of 8.0 or higher on the not-yet-invented Richter scale (based on their effect).

As a result of the quakes, large areas sank into the earth, new lakes were formed -- Reelfoot Lake, Tennessee -- and the Mississippi River even changed its course.

Here's Graham Hancock talking about issues related to this
www.grahamhancock.com...

Between 17,000 years ago and 7000 years ago, at the end of the last Ice Age, terrible things happened to the world our ancestors lived in. Great ice caps over northern Europe and north America melted down, huge floods ripped across the earth, sea-level rose by more than 100 metres, and about 25 million square kilometres of formerly habitable lands were swallowed up by the waves.

Really? Because in September 2007 physorg.com, when reporting the first evidence of a comets strike in Canada ushering the Ice Age, they described the as such:

Look up the cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes by Firestone, west and Warwick-smith. Which they published in 2006. This concept has been around for awhile.



I've read this book - its already outdated but it has good back ground info.

Scientist had noted a number of oddities and one of the first theories to account for these was that the energy from a super nova had hit the NA continent in the time of the mammoth

The link

This is also by Firestone and is dated September 2005

People have been looking at this since the late 1990's as far as I remember.

You might also like to look at Port Royal, Lisbon, these are historic submergence of cities/parts of cities.

One other point, misrepresenting what I said

I stated in response to your charge I hadn't read the materials

"I did, your point in guessing at this and being wrong is what exactly?"

You then go on about something completely different.

Go back and read again what I was taking about, it had nothing whatsoever to do with your theories.

It would seem the op title has changed

How does this "Dating for Prehistoric Civilization Legitimized!"

Very misleading:

Which prehistoric civilization?

What do you mean "legitimized"

How is ??? legitimized?

reply to post by Hanslune

Gosh, Hans - Are you having a bad day? One day you're witty and exurberant, riffing on 'wiping out nuts' (which I still think is funny), then you're gone for one day and suddenly you're 'foghorny' (your words not mine) and defensive, whaddup?

I am going to start with you -- HWD. thanks for joining in! -- and address as much as I can -- I have to leave in a few minutes -- with the hope that we can get back to the amity and basic understanding of how to communicate that we had before.

" Hans says: Look up the cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes by Firestone, west and Warwick-smith. Which they published in 2006. This concept has been around for awhile."

Two years is your personal qualification for "awhile now"? Good to know. I will remember that in furutre debbtes when I want to make an oblique point.

MORE TO THE POINT That would be THREE YEARS AFTER Marusek's theory I am citing; the reason I LEAD WITH IT, and give him so much credence is because he is foremost in his field, AND THE FIRST TO POSIT the result, in geological terms of theorizing tends to hold more weight. Does your book say something different about the topic at hand?

This is also by Firestone and is dated September 2005

Ditto...

Hans says: People have been looking at this since the late 1990's as far as I remember.

Umm, okay... if you say so.

Hans says: One other point, misrepresenting what I said.
I stated in response to your charge I hadn't read the materials

"I did, your point in guessing at this and being wrong is what exactly?"

You then go on about something completely different.

You are right about this, my bad and I;m sorry. I thought you were saying I was guessing about the thread and presuming I was wrong. I misread your intent, I sincerely apologize and once again say you were right about that I responded incorrectly.

Now I;ve fgotta jump for a bit, when I get back I will address your outrage abotu title change: which I did on behalf of what I thought was your misunderstanding AND noted IN CAPS at the bottom of the post, so as not to come off as sneaky and under-handed.
Cheers!

The pattern of ground marking from the Carolina Bays:







is nearly identical with that of countless other planets/moons (Mercury below for comparitive purposes only...but you could insert our moon, iapetus, etc):





I would also say that, since we rarely see impacts on the moon (very infrequently....i don't think there is a single, documented case of film or anything that is definitive), it would seem that many of the craters we see are from single events. True bombardment.

i think that what the op and furrytexan are getting at hans is that the airblast meteor hitting the icepack and causing massive global coastal flooding is the basis for most flood myths. which i think is a very good theory. i also think he's trying to say that since then, and now, a large percentage of population resides/resided on coastal regions. if this was the case, as it certainly is now and has been for a while, it's not a stretch to say that if there were an iceage civilization of say similar tech level of sumeria, most of their structures would be underwater. and as i think you can attest to, underwater archeology is still mostly in the infancy phase, as it's very expensive and time consuming compared to traditional landbased archeology. as for the dating, i think he's talking about using the global coastal flooding from that time period to date any ancient structures found around coastal regions underwater to at least that time period.

so really, at least for the modified title, it's not misleading in the least. and a pretty good theory.

as for hollywood, dude graham handcock? seriously? he gets a good theory goin, then goes totally over the top with it. i've got several of his books and honestly, the guy is totally about makin money, not expanding or revolutionizing what we know about ancient history like he claims.

Howdy All

MORE TO THE POINT That would be THREE YEARS AFTER Marusek's theory I am citing; the reason I LEAD WITH IT, and give him so much credence is because he is foremost in his field, AND THE FIRST TO POSIT the result, in geological terms of theorizing tends to hold more weight. Does your book say something different about the topic at hand?

Foremost in the field eh, I've put in a query about him at a science board.

As for being first I don't think so.

1963 that research by Eugene Merle Shoemaker conclusively proved this hypothesis - that earth is being affected by impact events.

A list of impact studies

Meteor impact studies

The 1994 impact of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 with Jupiter also served as a "wake-up call". After this event studies in this area increased. One of the larger and more important studies came out in 1968.

Wilson, J. Tuzo (1968) Comparison of the Hudson Bay arc with some other features. In: Science, History and Hudson Bay, v. 2. Beals, C. S. (editor), p.1015-1033.

List of all known impacts by age

"outrage"???

[edit on 31/7/08 by Hanslune]