Indian Akula II attack submarine

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posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 07:24 AM
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These countries need to really start looking at SSK`s - the latest swedish/german and russian boats are quiet as anything - a true hole in the water; just ask the USN when they lost an I688 to a Gotland class on exercise -the 688 didn`t even know it was there till they `died`.




posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


Those electric propulsors would be nice for use in situations such as maneuvering near the pier or in a tight harbor.

[edit on 2-8-2008 by oxillini]



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 





The US State Department did the same kind of stupidity in the late 1960s with a specialized ball bearing grinding machine to cut precision miinature ball bearings for inertial navigation gyros.systems...made by Bryant Chuck and Grinder company in Springfield, New Hampshire. They declared them "Non Strategic Equipment" and authorized the sale of 125 of these machines to the Soviets. This allowed the Soviets to miniaturize thier inetrial navigation gyroscopes in their missle warheads and procuce miniature individual sets for Multiple Independent Re Entry Vehicles. MIRVs in their ICBM missles. Very smart move on the part of the US State Department. Makes one wonder for whom the State department actually works ...same with Toshiba.

firstly , Bryant Grinders sold 168 grinders in 1972
and Soviets has started to test MIRV capablities and MIRV missiles in 1971 ,before Bryant sold grinders , but yes the possiblity of those machines used improving accuracy of missiles like SS-18 mod1 cannot be discounted
check page 41 of Sectors of Mutual Benefit in U.S.-Soviet Relations
By Nish Jamgotch

source:
books.google.co.in... yYJN3MCIdy5zQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA41,M1
Source
Sectors of Mutual Benefit in U.S.-Soviet Relations
By Nish Jamgotch

also , I suggest you also read another book , The Broken Sword of Empire novel by Russian author Maxim Kalashnikov which talks about soviet techniologies in Radars,lasers,nanotech ,titanium Fabrication ,microwave plasma weapons(stratgic ones driven by nuclear reactors and tactical ones too,electric EMP weapons etc. and some other technologies like MHD like Pamir ZU etc.
talks about how West benefitted from soviet research in nanotech,,titanium fabrication,Radars,elctric EMP weapons and lasers and development of soviet missiles(like RD-180 engines now used by US space program) ...
also on MIRv systems and development of soviet MIRVs
en.wikipedia.org...


also talks about how Soviets benefitted from semiconductor,electronics and communications technology obtained from the west in which Soviet were lacking
...



[edit on 2-8-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 2-8-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 2-8-2008 by manson_322]



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by Schaden
In terms of what ? I think the Astute class will be a great asset. Overall I'd say it will definitely exceed all the LA boats' capabilities. Its sonar and weapons systems are probably just as good as Seawolf or Virginia class. A lot of the same contractors supply both Navies.



True.. and bearing in mind that the same contractors supply the same navies/boats, it would be logical to consider the astute as comparable to the front line USN boats. I agree there. Plus there would be much in common in training regimes for both navies in this dept; actually across most if not all.

btw,
Do British contractors supply USN SSN/SSBN boats with parts? Do any non-US based contractors build/supply these boats?



Barracuda I don't know much about other than it is smaller and probably not designed with the same mission flexibility as an American/British SSN. In terms of silence and combat sensors, it's got to be at least as good as the last of the 688s, probably better. How close it comes to Seawolf or Virginia I don't know.


Why does it have to be at least as good as the last of the 688s?
Same component contractors? Same design boards? not sure of your reasoning there.

Oh.. and yes, a bunch of Thales Operating Companies do supply Astute with sensor and CM equipment IIRC. But am unsure of whether these companies are in the suppliers/contractors list for USN boats.

So, maybe your reasoning for the Astute being comparable to front line USN boats is due to a commonality of suppliers/contractors? And the doubt around the Barracuda is due to the doubt of that same commonality?
Can we extend this chain of thought for your assessment of the Shang Class and maybe the Akulas as well?
Just thinking out aloud here..
Correct me if I'm wrong; don't know much about subs.



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by Harlequin

oranage - i have seen that the akula`s have 2 retractable `crawl speed` fullly electric propulsors - now these can be used for ultra silent running - or could possibly be maneuvering

but why fit them for anything other that silent running at crawl rate?


Linkies and pics please?


Another Q for you Harlequin?

Are you on the board of some agency poised to market various naval assets to the Indian Navy?

First it was the Invincible and now this K-329?



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 01:02 PM
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oh i wish -sadly im not ; but being honesty invincible IS availble and would be a blue water asset - and the Oscar class syb would offer a new capability - and a platform for sub launched Brahmos



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by manson_322
 


Manson,
Thanks for the updates on the number, times and dates of the machines sold to the Soviets.

I will also check out that book ..Broken Sword of Empire and thanks for that title too. I am in need of new reading materials.

I read the brief in Wikipedia...and agree with one of the statements as it also applies here in the USA. We have lost site of our history by political manipulation in our Educational System and phoney news Media.

I began to suspect this years ago when I got my first shortwave set long before home computers. With the stringing up of a simple copper wire antenna to the tree out back...a whole world of different news and informations came to me of which I had never before heard. A side result of this was the eventual understanding of how a so called free country like America can have such a heavy paper curtain covering its ears and very few people even knowing of its existance.
I still listen to short wave news and informations as I have since obtained my Amateur Radio License and also maintain several portable shortwave sets also capable of Single Sideband reception. Amazing what is going on in many parts of the world which never get into our still controlled news media.

Pardon the use of the crudity here but I tend to call much of this news and information manipulation ..."Public Masterbation." I am not intrested in some political shill jerking me around as such. I would rather get most informations on my own..not through political partys filters like much of the news media...and all medias are doing it ..local and foreign. It is up to us to develope the right filters or decoding techniques.

Nonetheless..thanks for the book title. I will be checking it out. Always like to read a different view...whether I agree with it or not.

Orangetom



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 08:05 PM
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speaking of new russian subs. what do you guys think of the new borie class sub. she has 16 missile tubes and looks like a throwback to the older delta class boats but with an oscar like tower. They say she is pretty advanced for a russian boomer.

any opinions. I'm personally not impressed with it though.



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
oh i wish -sadly im not ; but being honesty invincible IS availble and would be a blue water asset - and the Oscar class syb would offer a new capability - and a platform for sub launched Brahmos


Sub launched Brahmos requires 670 mm tubes while the Oscar (and Akula in fact) have 533mm and 650mm tube bores.

Sub launched Brahmoses are ready for testing and it seems that some sub (either a modified Indian Kilo or a Russian sub in Russia, maybe the Amur class) will be the live test bed.

Submerged stationary platform firing tests have apparently already been carried out.



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 11:30 PM
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Harlequin,


oranage - i have seen that the akula`s have 2 retractable `crawl speed` fullly electric propulsors - now these can be used for ultra silent running - or could possibly be maneuvering


Oxillini has it correct in his later post. These electric retractable motors are used for maneuvering in close to the piers. Skillful crews use them to "parallel park" so to speak...when tugboat service is not available.
It seems strange but skillful crews and skippers can do this maneuver with a submarine weighing thousands of tons.
They can also use them to cast off ..away from the piers...no tugs.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 03:29 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3

you mean that picture was taken in Russia and not India.


Daedalus3,

Your actually suggesting that India is under possesion of the Submarine in question?

I have not seen anything which backs up this claim that India has made arrangements to lease/buy any nuclear submarines from Russia. There were reports of 300 Indian sailors heading to Sosnovy Bor and was then re-reported to be "heading to recieve nuclear training" simply because Russian nuclear facilities are located there aswell. It has been denied that the facility they will be trained at houses any nuclear reactor



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden
Their last SSN, the Han class, was a POS. You think the Chinese Navy could make a leap from building 1950s/1960s technology subs to



The first Han was launched in 1970 the last in 1990. You might class it as a class within a class. The lastest Han submarine is probably a direct comparison to the Victor III in its own right. The first Han submarines might have experienced a lot of teething problems but logic suggests you dont continue building the same submarines for 20 more years if they continued to have the same problem. One of the major revolutions the Victor III incorporated was Acoustic tiling which significantly reduced the subs signiture, this has been incorprated into most modern submarines including the Han as well


Click image to see the full picture



something as advanced as an Akula II with nothing in between ?


So, whats makes it so advanced?




posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 04:23 AM
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Originally posted by Schaden
Global security estimates the new Chinese SSN is comparable to a Victor III.


Actually they initially said its design was based on the Victor III and the statement has not been changed since. Copy = Comparable.

Anyway,

Here is a good article about Chinas submarine fleet for anyone who is seriously interested.

Daedalus3
. Not a lot about India but its quite interesting to read Chinese views on submarine warfare

China's future nuclear submarine force: insights from Chinese writings


Nor will Chinese nuclear submarines necessarily be used in the same roles for which U.S. and Soviet submarines were optimized (e.g., antisubmarine warfare). (73)

Another critical question concerns the 093 and 094 submarines' acoustic properties. Chinese sources universally recognize that noise reduction is one of the greatest challenges in building an effective nuclear submarine. (76) PRC scientists have long been conducting research concerning the fundamental sources of propeller noise. For instance, experts at China Ship Scientific Research Center developed a relatively advanced guide-vane propeller by the late 1990s. (77) This, and the fact that China already has advanced seven-blade propellers with cruciform vortex dissipaters on its indigenous Song-class and imported Kilo-class diesel submarines, suggests that the 093 and 094 will have significantly improved propellers. A researcher in Qingdao's 4808 Factory also demonstrates Chinese attention to the need to use sound-isolation couplings to prevent transmission of vibrations to the ocean from major fresh-water circulating pumps in the steam cycle. (78) Advanced composite materials are credited with capability to absorb vibrations and sound. (79)

One Chinese researcher states that the 093 is not as quiet as the U.S. Seawolf class or Virginia class but is on a par with the improved Los Angeles class. (80) Another analyst estimates that the 093's noise level has been reduced to that of the Russian Akula-class submarine at 110 decibels [[TEXT NOT REPRODUCIBLE IN ASCII]]. (81) He states that the 094's acoustic signature has been reduced to 120 decibels. According to this report, this is definitely not equal to that of the Ohio class, but is on a par with the Los Angeles. (82) There is no additional information given to evaluate concerning the origins or comparability of these "data."



The bolded area is what really interest me




[edit on 3-8-2008 by chinawhite]



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Daedalus3,

Your actually suggesting that India is under possesion of the Submarine in question?

I have not seen anything which backs up this claim that India has made arrangements to lease/buy any nuclear submarines from Russia. There were reports of 300 Indian sailors heading to Sosnovy Bor and was then re-reported to be "heading to recieve nuclear training" simply because Russian nuclear facilities are located there aswell. It has been denied that the facility they will be trained at houses any nuclear reactor


But of course! Why would I possibly want to suggest that India is/can/shortly will be under the possession of a SSN?
The Indian Navy is quite happy with its Kilos and Scorpenes.. What would we do with a SSN in the Indian Ocean? Tail CSGs?


'IMHO the Indian Navy does not plan to acquire any immediate SSN ability.'
There.. all settled now



EDIT: So read your link.. nothing ground-breakingly revealing to me at least.. the document seemed to mostly concentrate on the approach that Chinese nuke boat strategists/designers/operators have taken over the last 50 years..

However there were three interesting bits in that article of yours:

1)


As for the number of missile tubes in the 094, two sources predict sixteen tubes, compared with the Xia's twelve. (100) A third source forecasts between twelve and sixteen tubes. (101)


This I presume was published in late 2007, months after the first Google Earth (leaked or intentionally released) pics of the 094. I would imagine that the authors of this article would be aware of that.


2)


Apparently as part of these expanded activities, the current PLAN chief of staff, Sun Jianguo, reportedly commanded Han 403 during a mid-1980s mission of ninety days that broke the eighty-four-day undersea endurance record previously set by USS Nautilus.


Any more info on that? Not very knowledge-able on this area but does this mean that no boat in the cumulative operation spans of 5 SSN navies ever broke this record until then?
And did the Han actually do this, because the general public spread on Chinese 1st gen SSN/SSBNs was:
"the inability to stay submerged for opertionally viable periods due to 'various problems'."

3)


It is conceivable, if unlikely, that the PRC has achieved a major scientific feat concerning the propulsion system for nuclear submarines. A wide variety of Chinese sources claim that China has succeeded in developing a high-temperature gas-cooled reactor (HTGR) [[TEXT NOT REPRODUCIBLE IN ASCII]] suitable for use in its new-generation nuclear submarines. This development is described as a "revolutionary breakthrough" [[TEXT NOT REPRODUCIBLE IN ASCII]]. (83) Another source elaborates: "HTGR is the most advanced in the world, [its] volume is small, [its] power is great, [its] noise is low--it is the most ideal propulsion system for a new generation of nuclear submarines. The United States and Russia have both not achieved a breakthrough in this regard. According to Western reports, in the first half of 2000, China successfully installed an HTGR on a nuclear submarine. If this information is true, the 093 uses this advanced propulsion technology." (84)
....
....
As implied above, some Chinese analysts believe that the HTGR promises to give PLAN submarines unprecedented maximum speed.



Whats this HTGR all about? How do miniaturized 10MW reactor(s?) increase max speed?
Orangetom and N-boat veterans alike, please share all share-able info on this question


Finally,
As for the statement that you emboldened, well IMO that's quite obvious as PLAN force capabilities and doctrines (submerged, surface and aerial) are quite different than that of the USN or the Soviet/Russian Navy. Hence they will tend to use SSNs to that end, which is precisely the beauty of the operational flexibility a SSN offers. This of course presuming that it can carry
out its operational longevity, ASW, anti-shipping and land attack roles flawlessly.
SSBN usage is more or less globally quite transparent so no change there.


[edit on 3-8-2008 by Daedalus3]



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Schaden
Global security estimates the new Chinese SSN is comparable to a Victor III.

Actually they initially said its design was based on the Victor III and the statement has not been changed since. Copy = Comparable.


The best estimate is the Shang is comparable, meaning similar performance to a Victor III. But it's a new design. It's not a copy of a Victor III. Copy is not synonymous with comparable.



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

The first Han was launched in 1970 the last in 1990. You might class it as a class within a class. The lastest Han submarine is probably a direct comparison to the Victor III in its own right. The first Han submarines might have experienced a lot of teething problems but logic suggests you dont continue building the same submarines for 20 more years if they continued to have the same problem. One of the major revolutions the Victor III incorporated was Acoustic tiling which significantly reduced the subs signiture, this has been incorprated into most modern submarines including the Han as well


No doubt the quality improved as production went along. But everything I've read indicates the Han is comparable to 50s/60s sub tech. Acoustic tiling will help but without a complete redesign, you can't fix fundamental issues with the radiation shielding and hydrodynamics. Experts say the new Shang is comparable to a Victor III. Maybe the last of the Hans were comparable to a Victor I ?



something as advanced as an Akula II with nothing in between ?



Originally posted by chinawhiteSo, whats makes it so advanced?



Advanced relative to the Han. But don't roll your eyes. An Akula II in my estimate is without question better than a type 093. I realize English probably isn't your first language.

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Schaden]



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Any more info on that? Not very knowledge-able on this area but does this mean that no boat in the cumulative operation spans of 5 SSN navies ever broke this record until then?


No it doesn't mean that. They seem to be bragging their mid 80s submarine broke the OLD record set by the Nautilus in the 1950s. I don't know specifically, but I'd wager the Nautilus record has been eclipsed many times before the Han "record" was set. The endurance of a nuclear submarine is only limited by food for the crew. I've spent 80+ days submerged, it's de rigeur operating procedure.


Originally posted by Daedalus3And did the Han actually do this, because the general public spread on Chinese 1st gen SSN/SSBNs was:
"the inability to stay submerged for opertionally viable periods due to 'various problems'."


Did it really do it ? Who knows ? Any govt will not be fully truthful about its military capabilities. But I would take any comment from the PRC with an especially large grain of salt. To this day, the Tienanmen Square Massacre is a forbidden topic. I'd wager the vast majority of young Chinese Nationals don't even know that it happened. With anything as secretive as submarine operations, the public is not getting the full picture.



Originally posted by Daedalus3Whats this HTGR all about? How do miniaturized 10MW reactor(s?) increase max speed?
Orangetom and N-boat veterans alike, please share all share-able info on this question


HTGR has been around for decades. But they seem to be claiming to have perfected the concept. 10MW is diminutive for a nuclear submarine. In theory, the more powerful the reactor, the more heat you can create, thus leading to more steam power, and a faster sub. But there are several other factors in top speed besides reactor power such as weight. Also it gets progressively harder to make additional knots the faster you're going. Like on cars for example. You only need something like 15hp to reach 100mph, but to reach 200mph, you need like twenty times as much hp although it's only twice as fast. Same concept with subs.



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by Daedalus3
 


Daedalus,

You asked,


How do miniaturized 10MW reactor(s?) increase max speed?
Orangetom and N-boat veterans alike, please share all share-able info on this question


The US Navy prefers pressurized water reactors. They have tried other reactor types in submarines in the early days and found them lacking for their purposes. The USS Triton comes to mind...this submarine having utilized two reactors. This boat did not seem to work out and new designs quickly eclipsed this boat both in both hull shape and reactor types.
The High Temperature Gas cooled reactors, from what I can tell by the articles on it, are not yet suited to shipboard use and are still under testing and design phases. Some prototypes have been built, run, and also shut down to date.
I do not believe this design will be ready for shipboard use any time in the near future although I know that the US Navy carefully monitors and catalogs any results, incidents, and improvements/changes in the nuclear industry and anywhere in the world.

As to your question about how a reactor is run to change to max speed...I will not comment on how this is done nor go into this arena in the intrest of security. Hope you can understand this position.

Thank you for your post,
Orangetom



[edit on 3-8-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Aug, 3 2008 @ 07:26 PM
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Schaden is correct here,


No it doesn't mean that. They seem to be bragging their mid 80s submarine broke the OLD record set by the Nautilus in the 1950s. I don't know specifically, but I'd wager the Nautilus record has been eclipsed many times before the Han "record" was set. The endurance of a nuclear submarine is only limited by food for the crew. I've spent 80+ days submerged, it's de rigeur operating procedure.


You need to keep in mind that the USS Nautilus was a prototype boat...the first of her kind in nuclear power. All prototype boats as well as the first of a class have individual teething problems of their own.
When you talk to veterans of that era and those type boats...the USS Nautilus had huge design problems in more areas than just the reactor.
Alot of olde sailors have told me it was a full time job to keep the hydraulic systems working and leaks down. Other areas of the boat had problems too. Of course new designs and techniques/seals/o ring designs of today have come about as a result of these early problems and failures.

Nonetheless the Navy was willing to push this technology to new lengths to see just how good it was. These sailors and designers/engineers were pioneers so to speak in a new up and coming technology.
I have seen some of the olde technology in hydraulic systems on olde boomers and fast attacks...Today it has most certainly come along way baby.

Schaden has it correct when he states that the limit is food/supplies.

I have told this story before and will retell it here again because at the time I was witness to it I was astonished at what I was seeing.
As we were completing a new construction boat for delivery to the Navy..a 688 class submarine the Navy began the lengthy task of taking on food stores. They filled the reefer and frozen stores ..then began taking on canned goods. The canned goods storeroom was quickly filled and the Navy began lining up very large cans along the floors and passageways...even moving some canned goods into the floors of some adjacent rooms. Then a layer of half inch plywood was specially cut and laid upon these canned goods. Then once again more canned goods were placed on this plywood layer.
Those of us having to get onboard with our heavy tool bags and parts were like......"What the Hell!!?? I had never seen so many canned goods crammed in such tight quarters.
Then when they had finished the second layer ...more plywood was put upon this so we could walk without slipping on the cans. It was very dangerous on ones back if one slipped with a heavy tool bag and parts while going to and fro. You had to be very careful and aware when going on and off the boat.
I had heard these storys from the olde fleet boat guys of the diesel days..but this was the first time I had seen it with my own eyes. IT made a believer out of me ....quickly.
LOL LOL LOL...it was quite obvious to me that they would be eating thier way out of this mess....day by day.

Mind you now ..the olde salts and experienced sailors here on these boards would think nothing of this...but to me as a yardbird seeing this for the first time..I was very very impressed. It seemed like they had enough food for a year at sea. I am exaggerating of course but it seemed so to the impressionable mind seeing this on such a scale for the first time.

They literally packed canned goods in every nook and cranny where it was possible and practical.

It made a believer out of me and I know Schaden is not kidding when he says the limit is food supplies for a nuclear boat.

As a converted believer...it is not a big deal to break the record of the USS Nautilus with the improved status of the todays boats.

Ive seen surface ship crews aplenty and had enough experience just in the yards to measure the different levels of dicipline between the two. Submariners are a very differernt cut of cloth than surface sailors.
You have to possess a very different cut of cloth/mental attitude to remain diciplined undersea and under way for long periods of cloistered time in a submarine.
Ive seen submariners transfered to carriers...you can tell them because they still have on their dolphins. You dont see surface guys transfered the other way without making the grade...it just isnt done. Different cut of cloth.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Aug, 4 2008 @ 01:44 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
'IMHO the Indian Navy does not plan to acquire any immediate SSN ability.'
There.. all settled now


Its actually quite different in saying they want capability and they have the capability. Your absolutely correct in saying that the Indian military want a SSN I'm saying from all aviable information, they do not have that capability.



I would imagine that the authors of this article would be aware of that.


Its a ensemble of past Chinese articles so they could range from when the article was published all the way to the 80's.


Not very knowledge-able on this area but does this mean that no boat in the cumulative operation spans of 5 SSN navies ever broke this record until then?


The Chinese did not claim it as a record and kept it secret so I assume other navies did as well to hide their operational capabilities


Whats this HTGR all about? How do miniaturized 10MW reactor(s?) increase max speed?


Where did you get 10MW?

A HTGR is twice as efficient as a PWR so it would require a substantially smaller core for the same power output. It is also cooled by helium at a relatively low pressure instead of by high-pressure water reactor. This reduces the weight not only of the coolant but also of the piping. The reduced weight would potentially allow the submarine to be faster and smaller.

I guess a HTGR can be made more powerful in the same space or made as powerful and create a smaller submarine.


well IMO that's quite obvious as PLAN force capabilities and doctrines


Actually I'm interested in the possiblities or desinated submarines for different missions. The possible design implications that the sentence holds





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