New Jerusalem - Literal or figurative?

this came up in a separate thread, so i figured id start a new thread about it.

before i start, i wanted to share an insight i had about revelation. alot of people have problems understanding when something described in the book is something literal, or symbolic. so lets put it into context.

it is supposed that revelation was written later in his life. alot of the apostles had died off. the book is definitely a conclusion. revelation was presented to john in signs (rev 1:1) why?

well the simple explanation is that heaven (which alot of revelation takes place) is inconceivable to humans. second, it is a sacred secret to be unlocked when "the time is at hand."

to give a short example of the first is found at rev 5:5,6. we see a lamb that is commonly understood to be jesus. does this mean that jesus is running around heaven in the form of a slaughtered lamb? of course not, but that is what john sees. therefore its possible that jesus' spiritual form is incomprehensible to john (human) and so john was shown a fitting analogy.

many other thing share this sort of pictorial connection, but if i described them all, id have to write a book.

anyway on to why i feel that new jerusalem is figurative and not literal. (again, just my opinion)

all the scriptures that reference new jerusalem with my commentaries and cross-refences.

rev 21:[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

several major points about this scripture. first keep in mind that heaven is not physical. so a physical city in heaven is unlikely

-jerusalem was the center of government for isreal. so too, new jerusalem is the center of government for the "new earth" (remember too that the first earth and heaven passed away. first heaven could mean the worlds governments installed today. they would be done away with at armageddon and replaced with new jerusalem). this is also where we get the first clue that maybe this city is symbolic of the saints. if you look at rev 20:6 we see that those who are part of the first resurrection will "reign with him (christ) a thousand years"

-"coming down from god out of heaven." this term can also mean to turn one's attention to earth. in the next verse (3) god says that he will dwell with man. is this in a literal and physical way? lev 26:11,12 god also says he would dwell with his people (ancient isreal). since noone has seen god (1john 4:12) we can say this is in a figurative sense in that humans will no longer be alienated from god the way they are now. this is all possible through jesus and his sacrifice (1 Corinthians 15:22,23

-"bride adorned for her husband." jesus says to his servants at matt 9:[15] ... Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. immediately we see that those who mourn jesus' death are his servants. matthew 25 specifically describes the kingdom of heaven (new jerusalem) liken to ten virgins (servants of jesus), the illustration goes on about how some of the virgins were caught unaware (lost faith by the time of christ's return). some servants were declared virgins to the christ and are espoused to him. 2 cor 11:[2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

so who are this "bride" is it all of jesus' servants?

rev 14:[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

so there is several connections here. the 144,000 have god's name written on their forheads implying ownership. they were virgins in that their worship to god was pure (eph 5:25-27). redeemed from amoung men. firstfruits (remember 1 cor 15:22,23 mentioned earlier)

we see that no, the bride doesnt include all of jesus' servants.

rev 1:[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

so these 144,000 who are the bride of christ serve with him as kings (reigning over the earth) and priests (to help redeem mankind), are redeemed from mankind to heaven (since they stand with the lamb before the throne)

[9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

again, a description of the bride (144,000)

[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

again, from a heavenly point of view, its all symbolic

[11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

romans 6:[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

see rev 7:4-8

[13] On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

eph 2;[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

[15] And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

measuring usually shows gods future will and a garantee that it will happen. 2kings 21:13 and lam 2:8 both show literal jerusalem being measured and then being destroyed. jeremiah 31:39 and zachariah 2:2-8 show a measuring that would restore true worship. so if the city is symbolic, the measuring is a guarantee that new jerusalem will fulfill it's purpose.

[16] And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

basically a cube 12 thousand furlongs. 1 furlong (ancient greek)= 600 feet. so 12,000 furlongs is approximately 1,363.64 miles. this makes the city slightly smaller than australia or about 14 times the size of modern isreal. the city has about half the volume of the moon. now image something like that coming down to earth...

its height would exceed earth's atmosphere by several hundred miles.

if you disregard my previous notes, this alone should make you think twice about considering the city to be a literal one.

[17] And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
[18] And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
[19] And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
[20] The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
[21] And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

malachi 3:[2] But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
[3] And he shall sit as a refiner and purifer of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
[4] Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

again, if the city is symbolic of these "priests" who serve with jesus, then it would make sense that they are of gold and precious metals. while on earth jesus told his disciples that they would suffer persecutions in his name. he also gave the illustration of the two houses, one built on sand and the other on rock. those that kept integrity despite persecution would be refined like gold.

[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

the literal temple is a just a "pattern" (heb 9:11-28). after the benefit of jesus' sacrifice is applied, there would be no need for a temple since they would be with god and jesus themselves. the 144,000 would be made perfect and sinless

[23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

again, being so close to god, they would witness his glory. darkness sometimes shows alienation from god. (matt 8:12 talking about unfaithful isrealites)

[24] And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

keeping in mind that the worlds literal nations are destroyed at armageddon. this refers to events that happen after, so the nations are humans on earth. they also benefit from christ's sacrifice (rememeber 1 cor 15:22,23, those who come after?)

[25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26] And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
[27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

nothing evil or bad can enter the city. noone will be able to "buy"or lie their way in.

22:[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

now we get to see what this new jerusalem actually does

john 4:[13] Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
[14] But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

7:[37] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

so the water is not literal water.

ezekial too had a vision of this river (ezk 47:1-12)

[2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

ezekial also saw these trees in verse 12, but are they literal?

isaiah 61:[1] The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
[2] To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
[3] To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

its probably symbolic of the 144,000 since they will have a part in cleansing the world of sins (they are priests)

[3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

old jerusalem was cursed many times for being disobedient to god (malachi 2:2). new jerusalem will never be cursed because the saints are already incorruptible and perfect. they have already been refined.

[4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

remember that the 144,000 have god's name on their foreheads and they serve with the lamb before god. (rev 14:1)

[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

no more alienation from god.

another interesting passage that parallels this is
gal4:
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

so this is an illustration, symbolic (allegory). two covenants, one given to moses, other instituted by jesus. the old covenant is likened to hagar (sarah's servant girl)

[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

so hagar's son was an imperfect completion of the promise. abraham's son by sarah was to be the perfect furfillment

[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

so jesus' new covenant was the perfect completion of god's promises

[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

hagar and her son persecuted sarah, just as jews persecuted christians at first

[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

old covenant was done away with, as was the old temple arrangement. those who are saints are of the jerusalem "above"

Pollution.
This is what pops into my head.
The temple, when first constructed was pure and beautiful.
It did not stay pure for long.
Here was God's law, enshrined in a very respectful way.
Priests were there to burn incense to God to represent the prayers of the people.
The table of shew-bread was there to represent the thankfulness of the people for being provided for by God.
Then, someone broke the law that God gave in person, and there was sinfulness among the people.
Now the temple had to become the scene of a bloody sacrifice.
Then it had to be cleansed, at the end of a year of daily lawbreaking and sin and more blood.
At this day of reckoning the high priest came before what acted as the throne of God, on earth.
This structure was a portable representation of the place in heaven where God is worshiped, continuously.
There was a reality that the sanctuary held symbolically.
But there is no reason for the real temple to come to earth, along with the New Jerusalem.
For one reason, we will not be sinning and the ultimate sacrifice to God was completed by the Lamb of God.

A video of the moon crossing in front of the earth. Maybe a little perspective on how big the city will be. According to Miriam, it would be half the mass of the moon. (of course,that is if you disagree with her, and think it is literal)

Originally Posted by PreTribGuy
The fact that this city is measured and its dimensions are given, implies to me that the city is literal. For a long time I thought the city was a "cube", also, but some scholars seem to say a pyramid also fulfills the description.

I also understand the (often overlooked) 'height' difficulties. This city is about 1500 MILES tall!

This is the Traditional Throne of God that we know as K2.
Notice any similarity to the great pyramid?
Did John have any idea of what the accurate measurement of K2 was?
Could someone travel across the continent (K2 is in Eastern Pakistan) and go to Patmos and tell John about how he saw what people considered the real throne of God?
All temples are a way of imitating this Mountain.
Now, with this knowledge of a huge mountain, when John saw the Temple in Heaven, would he not have to see it as bigger and more glorious than K2?
If you are still following this string of thought, given the size of your ultimate temple, how big would the city that it sits in, have to be?


[edit on 29-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
But there is no reason for the real temple to come to earth .....
For one reason, we will not be sinning and the ultimate sacrifice to God was completed by the Lamb of God.

basically what vs 22 says

[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.