I wont abstain I will write in Ron Paul if I can and if not then I will abstain.

Originally posted by Gateway
What else will you have people do when they face, huge un-payable deficits, an ever increasing encroachment of our civil liberties, tax increases, wars we don't want or need, foreign policy that is interventionist, Illegal Quazi-Government institutions depreciating our purchasing power...

Well for starters, you can vote for Obama.

I'm afraid people can only take so much, and if the consensus among the population feels that voting has only brought on all of this and most likely will continue to give them more of the same, even though they may have once thought like you that voting would make a difference, well then perhaps in due time things will be ripe for change.

Keep in mind that for over 200 years we have had the powers granted to us by the constitution. It was taking these powers for granted and not voting intelligently is what got us where we are at today. It wasn't entirely the governments fault. We hold some of the blame as well. We failed in our duty to hold them accountable. Basically we were duped, but we let ourselves be duped.

Furthermore, I think if you actually went out into the real world and told everyone to not vote, I think the "consensus among the population" is that it will sound like you want to take away their right to vote, and I don't think very many will agree with you. I think you will find you are in the small minority on this issue. Of course you will find plenty here that will agree, but ATS does not represent the general population.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

Originally posted by Hal9000
We have 300 million people in this country now and many social services that rely on a stable government functioning. You remove that and we will be far worse off.

And where in the Constitution does it give the feds any authority to create "social services?"

The services I was referring to were local police and fire, water ect... States receive funding from the federal government and would soon go broke without it, and that is the breakdown of services I meant.

Originally posted by Hal9000
They did have a timetable in the last funding bill and Bush vetoed it. He promised to veto any bill that included a timetable.

And that's no excuse for Congress to stop trying...Anything bush vetoes, Congress can pass through again to override the veto! By not doing so, Congress is merely acting as Bush's accomplices while merely "going through the motions" to appear as if they're opposing him: It's become a matter of "good PR" to oppose Bush since Congress' ratings went so low. Smoke & mirrors, dude.

Both you and Gateway seem to be under the impression I am defending Congress. That is not the case. Except for the newly elected reps, I would kick them all out and Pelosi would be first. I am NOT defending them, I am merely explaining what happened.

What I am saying is that I don't agree with NOT VOTING, which is the premise of this thread, and I don't advocate an armed revolution. Voting is how we change things peacefully, and if the population isn't informed well enough to affect that change, then we should share the blame with the government we elect.

To everyone,

If you really want to change things, the best thing you can do is inform people, your friends and family, ect... on voting and who we are voting for.

But to not vote and expect things to change is well, simply ludicrous.

This 'topic' is so wrong-headed as it clearly appeals to those who:

a) voted for GWB and
b) are just smart enough to be wracked with guilt for their past choices
c) are disconsolate about their future options and
d) too egotistical to take responsibility for their full-throated support for the current admins policies this whole time and want to also take no responsibiltiy for the candidate they have on offer.

Honestly....

Is your collective ego such that you cannot think of anytihng to do other than opting out because you feel you have no other 'correct' political options? Do you really think that makes you a patriot? If so, read-up on the revolutionary war. It wasn't started becuase of, or by those who, wielded 'muskets'.

IN SUMMARY:
Take reponsibility for your party and nominate better candidates instead of sitting out and deluding yourself that you are 'making a difference'.

edit: for etiquette

[edit on 29-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

[edit on 29-7-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

Originally posted by Hal9000
Well for starters, you can vote for Obama.

Obama would have gotten my vote despite how I loathe his tax infested policy, and his support for the FED, and his belief in the expansions of Govt. Of course this flash of thought only lasted like .0001 of a second, the reason I would never vote for him is simple...

I posted this on another thread, but its worth re-posting:
Recently Obama said in an AIPAC Conference, and I quote:
"I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. Everything in my power. Everything.".....

"Everything" I guess includes murdering tens of thousands of Iranians, mostly civilians – driving the price of oil up above $300 a barrel and destroying the US economy – and involving us in a war that will make the Iraq conflict look like a Sunday school picnic. And for what? So much for Obama the peace maker...

Why is this issue so important to me. Despite the rhetoric you liberals make regarding how you want to help your fellow man, the moment you are given the opportunity to back your claims up, you cop-out and place money i.e., the transfer of wealth above that. This election more than any other in recent times is primarily about people's lives: you see, War, Killing, Destruction is/should be the most important issue for everyone. Were talking about peoples lives here, Iranian, Iraqis, Afghans, or Americans. And for Obama to show his true colors, showed the rest of us what he's all about. So much for your Obama the peace maker. You liberals, I don't know plays the biggest lip-service you guys or the Republicans, with their smaller government drivel. So go on and keep fooling yourself into believing that Obama will change policy.

I'm curious let me ask you, since you are a Democrat and you seem level headed...
How does it make you feel to know that both Mcain and Obama support:
1) The Fed
2) Members of CFR
3) Support larger Central Gov.
4) Support Amnesty
5) Willing to go to War with Iran, despite our current financial and military constraints

How can you honestly tell me that you see a difference in the Candidates? And that the American people have a real choice between two oh so different guys. Don't you find it in the slightest bit concerning that your beloved Messiah's views are congruent with that of your beloved demon McCain

Furthermore, I think if you actually went out into the real world and told everyone to not vote, I think the "consensus among the population" is that it will sound like you want to take away their right to vote, and I don't think very many will agree with you. I think you will find you are in the small minority on this issue. Of course you will find plenty here that will agree, but ATS does not represent the general population.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statements, I think people will continue to vote, and keep making the stupid choice year after year.

It's not like I expect 85% of the population to not vote this year. Although it is quite telling that the general trend of voter turnout except for the 2004 election has been on the decline. I think the ratio of no voter turnout has a direct correlation with dissatisfied sentiment of the electorate. I just want to point out, this trend downward is a big statement, it says that 3rd party candidates can tap into this sentiment. Like any other business if I chose to not buy between a Mac or a HP, then surely this leaves room for its competitors to come in and provide the product that the consumer requires, hence we have Gateway, IBM and others. In our case, more people like Ron Paul. If I throw away my vote, and vote for your Obama I send a message that I want the Mac over possible alternatives like a Gateway, IBM or in our case our Ron Paul and that....I'm not willing to compromise.


[edit on 29-7-2008 by Gateway]

Rather than abstain, or choose the lesser of two evils, or even do a write in as protest and have it left uncounted. There is Bob Bar.

I don't know anything about him, but I heard him speak once and he seemed like a complete doofus. Does anyone know about Bob Bar?

Maybe we should consider voting for him. At least the votes would be counted. He won't win in a million years. But it would be a real vote.

Originally posted by GatewayThis election more than any other in recent times is primarily about people's lives: you see, War, Killing, Destruction is/should be the most important issue for everyone. Were talking about peoples lives here, Iranian, Iraqis, Afghans, or Americans.

That's funny how you are so much against war, yet you want to use force to revolt against the government and put your preferred candidate into power, even though that goes against what the majority of the population wants. I know, I know, you are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Good luck with that.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
This 'topic' is so wrong-headed as it clearly appeals to those who: a) voted for GWB and

Wrong headed in what way? I'm rather enjoying this, watching those that panic at the thought that people no longer believe and question system...

Perhaps you liberals since you love government and the expansion of it so much can have your Rep. Charles Rangel introduce a manditory vote legislation...Just think we can have the local SS...er I mean the local police make sure everyone is wearing their patriotic pin stating "I voted"

This guy cracks me up the most (here's something to munch on):
The case for reinstating the draft has found an attentive audience at the Council on Foreign Relations, the oldest and most influential establishment think-tank. Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) During a March 9 presentation at the Council, Rep. Rangel, who has sponsored a measure to reinstate conscription, outlined a plan very similar to that proposed by Carter and Glastris.

Those liable to conscription "would be about 36 million people between 18 and 26," stated Rangel. "We couldn't possibly need more than a million, probably far less than that, for military activity…. So it would seem to me that … you bring everybody in, and then you determine what can you do with them, what contribution can they make? National security is not just guns and bombs…. We can train people to do these non-military jobs. They can go overseas. They can stay here. They could be the eyes and ears."

Rangel, like Carter and Glastris, is alluding to the Marxist concept of the "equal liability of all to labor" in state-appointed forms of compulsory service, as described in the eighth plank of the Communist Manifesto. They also lay bare the essence of conscription, which is the rejection of the idea of self-ownership (or, as Christians believe, self-stewardship under God's sovereignty) in favor of the idea that all citizens are property of the State.

b) are just smart enough to be wracked with guilt for their past choices

I didn't vote for Bush, I'm a registered independent always have been. There are some who feel regret, but would you not say most if not the entire country feels this regret. After all he did overwhelmingly defeated Kerry.

c) are disconsolate about their future options and

Uh, yeah that's why we are not choosing to vote.

d) too egotistical to take responsibility for their full-throated support for the current admins policies this whole time and want to also take no responsibiltiy for the candidate they have on offer.

So now I'm to take responsibility for Bush murdering Iraqis? Huh? Well then by that same toke YOU since you will either vote for a hardcore WAR monger or Warmonger-lite, have your share of death and destruction at on your hands since you will by voting, will promote the continuance of policy and the new eventual War looming...waiting to start!

Honestly.... If so, read-up on the revolutionary war. It wasn't started becuase of, or by those who, wielded 'muskets'.

The revolutionary war was as a result of the king ignoring of the wishes of colonialist. If Obama or McMurder have another war rubber stamped by retards in congress and they continue to ignore the wished of the American public and trash what's left of the constitution. You propose, we still go and vote?

IN SUMMARY: Take reponsibility for your party and nominate better candidates instead of sitting out and deluding yourself that you are 'making a difference'.

holy mackerel, did you read carefully what you just wrote? Here let me hold up a mirror to you...to those of you who continue to vote for Mcmurder or Obama the status quo..."Take responsibility for your party and nominate better candidates instead of voting and deluding yourself that you are 'making a difference."



[edit on 29-7-2008 by Gateway]

Originally posted by Hal9000 That's funny how you are so much against war, yet you want to use force to revolt against the government and put your preferred candidate into power, even though that goes against what the majority of the population wants. I know, I know, you are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Good luck with that.

Can you explain to me again, how not voting is equivalent to acquiring a rifle and shooting up the Whitehouse?

Read again: "If the will of the people continues to be ignored, and more wars are brought on, more taxes, less civil liberties, more growing debt, depreciation of our currency," what else will you have us do...

Don't answer that...I know....go vote!!


[edit on 29-7-2008 by Gateway]

Despite the rhetoric you liberals make regarding how you want to help your fellow man, the moment you are given the opportunity to back your claims up, you cop-out and place money and the transfer of wealth above that.

Aww, and here you were trying do hard to come off as unbiased and just fed-up with the politics of now. I'm so crestfallen.

Ya know, it's funny... we must be having some kind multiple-reality overlap here.

Because the reality I live in? It's the one where the Republicans (empahsis), in the last seven years, have granted the greatest allotment of corporate wealth in terms of tax breaks, subsidies and loosening of coroporate oversight in the history of America.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt

Despite the rhetoric you liberals make regarding how you want to help your fellow man, the moment you are given the opportunity to back your claims up, you cop-out and place money and the transfer of wealth above that.

Aww, and here you were trying do hard to come off as unbiased and just fed-up with the politics of now. I'm so crestfallen.

Ya know, it's funny... we must be having some kind multiple-reality overlap here.

Because the reality I live in? It's the one where the Republicans (empahsis), in the last seven years, have granted the greatest allotment of corporate wealth in terms of tax breaks, subsidies and loosening of coroporate oversight in the history of America.

Are you high? Did I say I was a scum sucking republican? Because I believe in capitalism does not make me a republican.

First off, who says we live in a Capitalistic country? I loathe any corporate welfare being given to these rats. By that same token I also loathe any type of welfare. Why? Because it is an immoral system that was never supported by our constitution. These entitlement programs that have bankrupted this country was mostly due to you liberals and your "New Deal". You liberals have your SOC, welfare, corporate tariffs, protectionism, not to mention subsidies for biofuels, Farm Industry etc...you see..you guys too play the corporate welfare game...just like your twin party, the republicans...I laugh when you liberals jump and cry foul at the republicans when you guys turn right around and do the same thing....

Sure the republicans have built up the Military Industrial Complex, that's 70% or more of the budget, and then you liberals have your "New Deal" programs which eats off the other 70%....Its like the republicans punch the American people in the face, and then you Liberals come in and kick us in the balls for good measure. What a joke!!

Let me see if my math is right that makes 140%...."Oh that's okay" cry out the republicans and democrats, "We'll just go to the Fed for the difference...who cares it's only paper money!!"


[edit on 29-7-2008 by Gateway]

Back to the topic... the way I see it is that the system doesn't fail if you don't vote. If only 5% come out to put in a ballet, someone will win with 2.51% of the actual vote. Like it or not, the system doesn't care about your protest.

You want to impress me... get 90% of the people out to vote. Get your friends and neighbours and co-workers, and convince them why they should vote for Ron Paul, or the Green party, or whoever you think will fix this mess. Better yet... try to get yourself elected, and fix the system from the inside. The beauty of democracy is that anyone can run... why not you? I know your not going to run for president, and maybe the choices for that really suck to you today, but voting abstain isn't going to change a damn thing.

Originally posted by cannonfodder Back to the topic... the way I see it is that the system doesn't fail if you don't vote. If only 5% come out to put in a ballet, someone will win with 2.51% of the actual vote. Like it or not, the system doesn't care about your protest. You want to impress me... get 90%

Why don't you try to impress us and show us how great it is to vote, and tell me why only 45 to 50% of the electorate chooses to show up to your sham of a democracy. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that perhaps the two clowns you guys keep rolling out year after year, are nothing but different faces full of the same empty headed rhetoric, with nothing new to offer except more taxes, less freedoms, and more headaches.

of the people out to vote. Get your friends and neighbours and co-workers, and convince them why they should vote for Ron Paul, or the Green party, or whoever you think will fix this mess. Better yet... try to get yourself elected, and fix the system from the inside. The beauty of democracy is that anyone can run... why not you? I know your not going to run for president, and maybe the choices for that really suck to you today, but voting abstain isn't going to change a damn thing.

You see, the burden of proof is not on us...it is on YOU, you people who keep talking about how voting makes a difference, it is up to you to prove. I've already outline how it doesn't in my previous posts. And I'm strictly speaking about this country. I doubt you'll be able to, because most of us here have had personal experience with voting. It's not like we never voted in our lives, its the fact that we have voted and nothing changes, which proves that voting doesn't mean a damn thing...but yeah....yeah...I know what you're going to say.....go out and Vote!!

You guys are starting to sound like the Robots you want us to elect, "Go out and Vote...Go out and Vote....Go out and Vote..."


That's all I hear...go out and vote...tell it to some naive 18 year old newbie who never voted, he'll probably buy that crap. We're seasoned veterans here, in your "voting" sham, and I personally no longer want to make your system legitimate by participating in it. You want to vote for either McDeath or Yo-moma go ahead be my guest.


[edit on 30-7-2008 by Gateway]

yeah.....I am going to vote. I don't care if the old man from AZ drops out and a Chinese midget runs on the GOP ticket. No way I give up my rights giving Obama a better chance. NO WAY.

90% of the people to vote?

It would be far easier to get a million or so people to show up at the Capitol Building with a gun in hand, and a real willingness to see things change.

Of course, like our Founding Fathers, you would not only have to be willing to die for change, but to kill for it, and that seems to be out of fashion at the moment.

Originally posted by mybigunit
I wont abstain I will write in Ron Paul if I can and if not then I will abstain.

This too, I will also consider as another viable option for me.

[edit on 30-7-2008 by Gateway]