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A Word to the Third Party and Non Voters

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posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 02:26 AM
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reply to post by Quazga
 


There should be no flames Quazga. You have a right to feel inspired and vote for anyone you choose to without having to validate your reasons. I respect that as much as I do some of my family members in Texas voting for Bush. I may not agree with them, I may debate issues with them, but in the end they pay their own bills and taxes I don't do it for them.

I voted Kerry even though I found him to be woefully inadequate. I did it because I find Bush to be dangerously inadequate, but in the end I really didn't want to vote for Kerry. I just felt I had little options to choose from.

I think our country is run on corruption. When those corrupters attempt to run for office you end up having to choose between the lesser of two evils.

I'm done with it.

I have a feeling America will be in a shambles soon enough anyway and it won't even matter.

- Lee




posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 05:46 AM
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Third party voting for Perot in '92 got us 8 years of Clinton.

And Perot got 19% of the vote.

It's foolish to vote for someone who will not win, and it is necessary, in the event that we are not entirely controlled by the corporations, to vote for someone who can win.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 06:02 AM
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reply to post by Gateway
 




Originally posted by Gateway
According to Dr. Thomas J. DiLorenzo if you are a believer in the Constitution then do your patriotic duty and DON'T VOTE THIS ELECTION!!:

The Republican Party today stands for an explosive growth of the welfare state and is spending money on such programs as fast as Lyndon Johnson ever did. The Democrats are as bad or worse.
< snip >

That’s why it is unpatriotic to vote. Being patriotic in America means being devoted to the Constitution, if not the natural rights philosophy that motivated much of it. Since neither of the major political parties has any interest whatsoever in enforcing the constitutional limitations on the state, they are all traitors to the Constitution (with one lone exception, Congressman Ron Paul).

< snip >

Disclaimer: I encourage ALL WHO ARE DISSATISFIED WITH THE SYSTEM TO NOT VOTE!!!! Although please do vote at your local level because of new sales tax or initiative


I have to disagree with your premise and your conclusion. For example:


The Republican Party today stands for an explosive growth of the welfare state and is spending money on such programs as fast as Lyndon Johnson ever did. The Democrats are as bad or worse.


This is not true. The current crop of Republicans have strayed from conservative principles, but that does not mean it is party policy to overspend or open our borders. There are many individuals who still believe in conservative principles. And the American public is conservative. And involvement still works. Witness the success that we had in turning back the Amnesty Bill last summer, even though it was almost a lock to be passed. Because of efforts by groups and individuals, we made our voices be heard as one, and we turned it back.

Conservatives in general are disgusted with the group of weaklings now in office. That's why the Dems won the Congress in '06 - because the conservatives stayed at home and didn't vote. They are now realizing that they made a mistake by staying home. It is never a good idea to give away your rights; that's what you and DiLorenzo are advocating.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 07:25 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Why is it, then, that everyone else in these 5 pages totally gets what I'm saying, even if they don't agree and even though they're either not voting or voting for a third party? Why is it that you and Lloyd are the only ones who think I've some ulterior motive?
Since you have asked the question, I will answer it. Please don't accuse me of being off topic for doing so. I don't think EVERYONE on this thread has said they understand, or agree with what you're saying BH. That's an assumption on your part. Your posting history is what makes me doubt your sincerity. It just doesn't jump off the page as saying "the election has already been decided".

Some of these people have known me for a long time. You guys are fairly new and don't know me. I'll give you a break.

I used to be a therapist BH, and it really doesn't take years to understand what motivates most people.


I am far from stupid or dense, I'm not ignorant and I'm not fishing. Think whatever you like but I'd appreciate you not dragging this thread off topic further. This thread is not about me. It's about the choices we have before us and why we make those choices. If you need a refresher, please re-read the first post.
Nobody has implied any such thing. You on the otherhand, constantly imply that others are less knowledgeable or have reading problems, simply because they disagree with your opinion or ask for clarification. If you don't want feedback, you shouldn't solicit it.

People should vote according to their conscience. Even if the election process is not completely fair, you've done your part and no one will be able to accuse you of not trying.


[edit on 29-7-2008 by LLoyd45]



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Check out some of the other threads, where everyone is talking about how Customs is now searching laptop computers to find copyright materials and child pornography.


Oh, yeah. I thought you were saying that something I had said was copyrighted. But no, I'm not on a laptop, I don't have illegally downloaded MP3s and I'm not going anywhere!



Originally posted by AHostileMe
In my opinion, if everyone stops playing this game of voting for the "lesser of two evils" or voting for who you think will win, then maybe, just maybe, we can get some other parties into the mix.


You know, I agree with you as far as myself voting the lesser of the two evils or voting for who I think will win, but I have a real hard time saying to someone else, "YOU should vote (or shouldn't vote) a certain way." Even if it's to say that they shouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils. It's THEIR vote. If they want to vote for the lesser of two evils; if that's how they want to spend their voice, then who am I to say that they're voting "wrong" or for the wrong reason?

When I vote for Obama, which is my current plan, it won't be because he is the lesser of 2 evils or because I think he's going to win and I can be on the winning team. As AceWombat said, ethically, I couldn't do that. But if someone did want to vote for the lesser of 2 evils, I wouldn't fault them for that. It's up to each individual how we spend that vote for whatever reason we choose.


Originally posted by AceWombat04
However, since becoming the presumptive Democratic nominee, his words and deeds have veered away from what I had hoped.


I have the same experience. He isn't perfectly in line with how I would like a candidate to be. But I guess I don't have the expectation that a person in the office of the president is going to be some sort of perfect expression of what I want to see in there. It would be nice, but for me personally, that's an unrealistic expectation. And unless and until he does something that is entirely out of bounds for me personally, my vote will go to him, because there's a lot more that I do agree with him on than not. A lot more.

I personally feel that I need to be flexible and make compromises. I keep coming back to my marriage. Neither one of us is perfect. We don't agree 100% of the time. But we have an exceptional marriage because we respect each other and are both willing to compromise and accept, even when we don't completely understand or agree.

That doesn't mean I married the lesser of evils. Not even close. It just means I don't have expectations that my husband be perfect or exactly like me.



So ethically, I can't in good conscience vote for anyone now. It isn't about feeling aware or awake. It's a matter of personal conscience, and I don't expect or want anyone else to agree with me.


I totally understand your reasoning. Thanks for the explanation. You explained it in a way that I hadn't actually considered or didn't really 'get'.

...More to come...



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by Gateway
According to Dr. Thomas J. DiLorenzo if you are a believer in the Constitution then do your patriotic duty and DON'T VOTE THIS ELECTION!!:

You know I've been told that doing a lot of other things like being against the war in Iraq was unpatriotic, but this is the first time I've seen someone say it was unpatriotic to vote. That is so absurd and self defeatist.

Not only is it our patriotic duty to vote, but it is our patriotic duty to hold our elected politicians accountable. The problem is not in the voting it is in holding them accountable.

Why do you think they make campaign promises that they never follow up on? Because we don't hold them accountable.

Why do they spend our tax dollars like there's no tomorrow? Because we don't hold them accountable.

Why are the people that mislead us into a war for corporate interests still around? Because we don't hold them accountable.


How do we hold our elected officials accountable?

One way to hold then accountable, is to vote!

Politicians respond to the voters and not to those that don't vote.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 08:52 AM
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reply to post by Hal9000
 




The problem is not in the voting it is in holding them accountable.


well if you cant vote anyone who will hold corrupt politicians accountable into office because the elections are rigged to keep good people out that negates your whole premise.

believe me I WISH the system worked. Things would be alot easier, but it dosnot.

thats why even though many people want impeachment of bush, and there is good legal grounds to do it, the democratic leadership is throwing themselves in front of the bus for him. it is a system of crooks ment to protect crooks.

f--- them and their sham election. im not voting for either one. no matter who i vote for we are attacking iran.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by lee anoma
The pandering on both sides is ridiculous.


Oh, those pictures! It is disgusting. And when I see it, I think, "It's what they are getting paid to do." It IS a game. It is a popularity contest. It is a matter of doing certain things to get more votes. And it's pretty sickening.

And I fully admit that I make allowances for certain behavior. I am flexible. That's how I can still vote even though I'm pretty sure they're both thinking, "I wonder how many votes this will get me..." It's a weird allowance, I know, but it's how I feel.

And there are allowances I will not make. There are lines I wouldn't cross. Again, just as in a relationship, my friends or lovers can mess up or not be perfect and I will still love them. But there are lines, that if crossed, would ruin our trust and our relationship. Same with Obama. There are certain lines, that if he crossed, he would no longer get my vote.



People think I defend Obama because I support him when it's just the opposite. I am so sick of lies and politics that whenever I see someone perpetrating a fraudulent claim I am at times compelled to bust them on it.


That's what I've been doing for months now, since the election forum went up. And people think I defend him because I'm a loyal devoted fangirl. When really, it's the lies I hate, not the man I love.




It's just that most of those claims on this site are about Obama and not McCain.


I heard a story yesterday about how the media is MUCH more critical of Obama than McCain. And I think it's true.


Originally posted by lee anoma
I have a feeling America will be in a shambles soon enough anyway and it won't even matter.


I'm right there.
...and I could be wrong. So for my own peace of mind, I will act as if the country isn't collapsing, all the while knowing it probably is.


Originally posted by DreamTrekker
It's foolish to vote for someone who will not win, and it is necessary, in the event that we are not entirely controlled by the corporations, to vote for someone who can win.


See, this is why I ask; why I started this thread. Because I see and understand this point of view (although I wouldn't use the word "foolish"). Because I can see the advantage of voting for the person who most closely aligns with my desires, even if that's only 50%. I didn't (until talking with all of you) understand why someone would cast their vote for someone who has no chance of winning.

But now, I also understand that.
Even if it's not something I choose to do.


Originally posted by jsobecky
The current crop of Republicans have strayed from conservative principles, but that does not mean it is party policy to overspend or open our borders.


I agree that conservatives have lost touch with what they used to stand for. My husband says that by my values, I'm a "true conservative". The way conservative used to be. The current Republican party is not recognizable as "conservatives".



That's why the Dems won the Congress in '06 - because the conservatives stayed at home and didn't vote. They are now realizing that they made a mistake by staying home. It is never a good idea to give away your rights; that's what you and DiLorenzo are advocating.


See, this is the other side of the coin... The one I'm attached to. While I understand how people feel out of integrity voting for either/or and MUST stay home, I feel it's sad to silence your voice. It's like a silent protest. Like snuffing out a candle. If I'm going to protest, I'm going to make some freaking noise! I'm going to light up the place.



[edit on 29-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 08:56 AM
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reply to post by LLoyd45
 


Isnt it amusing that, even in the light of such a wonderfully created, and well thought-out thread, there are still those whom oppose it?

Nothing in this thread pertains to Barack Obama support.


I love the way BH has posted this. It's something we should all think about the next time we enter an Obama or McCain thread and tout "intellectual superiority" on our sleeve by saying "im sophisticated, vote third party"

GREAT post BH.

I hope you got lots of 'applause' for this one



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 09:00 AM
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reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin
 


no one says they are intellectually supirior for voting 3rd party. im sure most dont do it to be seen as cool. everyone i know who is voting 3rd party or not voting at all is doing it out of strong moral reasons. not so they can go on the internet and talk about how cool and trendy they are.

i dont know what that says about people voting for the main canidates, but the best i seem to hear from them is. "well he is better than ____."

dosnt sound like a compelling argument to me.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
It's something we should all think about the next time we enter an Obama or McCain thread and tout "intellectual superiority" on our sleeve by saying "im sophisticated, vote third party"


Thanks for your support, Andrew.


And at the beginning of this thread, this is exactly what I was thinking. That people who were voting third party were feeling a bit smug and righteous over those who were voting for one of the 2 main candidates. But I have since learned that there are other reasons and points of view that I hadn't previously even considered, much less understood. I suggest you read this entire thread (if you have time, etc) to get a real feel for why some people make different choices about their voting.

I no longer think it's a superiority thing. I think it's an ethical thing. And that I can fully respect.

I just hope that the majority can understand and respect why I'm making the choice I'm making, too...



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Isnt it amusing that, even in the light of such a wonderfully created, and well thought-out thread, there are still those whom oppose it?

I don't think anyone is in opposition to the pretext of the thread Andrew, I'm not. I must confess, I don't believe the decision has already been made for us, or that how we vote really doesn't matter, or that we only have one viable candidate to vote for. I think people will vote their conscience despite what you, I, or anyone else says. That's their right..


Nothing in this thread pertains to Barack Obama support.
When you say it doesn't matter how you vote, then contradict yourself by putting forth a candidate as being the only viable option, I'd say it does. That's just my opinion though, you're entitled to your own.



I love the way BH has posted this. It's something we should all think about the next time we enter an Obama or McCain thread and tout "intellectual superiority" on our sleeve by saying "im sophisticated, vote third party"

GREAT post BH.

I hope you got lots of 'applause' for this one
However one chooses to vote, does not bestow sophistication or intellectual superiority upon them. It's simply a choice they've made based on what they happens to believe is best for themselves and their country..

Choosing not to vote is also a choice. I may not agree with the logic behind it, but I still respect their decision to vote their own mind.

[edit on 29-7-2008 by LLoyd45]



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
reply to post by LLoyd45
 


Isnt it amusing that, even in the light of such a wonderfully created, and well thought-out thread, there are still those whom oppose it?

Nothing in this thread pertains to Barack Obama support.


I love the way BH has posted this. It's something we should all think about the next time we enter an Obama or McCain thread and tout "intellectual superiority" on our sleeve by saying "im sophisticated, vote third party"

GREAT post BH.

I hope you got lots of 'applause' for this one




WOW what is your issue with 3rd party voters you obviously have issues with the posts you have done on this thread. Just because I dont want to vote for the status quo doesnt make me more intelligent it makes me sleep better at night thats all. So Ill vote Ron Paul or Chuck Baldwin or Bob Barr and sleep easy. You can vote Obama or McCain or whoever you choose that is the beauty of this country. I just dont want to hear you or anyone else complain when nothing changes. I dont want to hear ONE complaint at all.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by mybigunit
I dont want to hear ONE complaint at all.


Than you better close your ears.
Because no matter what I can guarantee you I'm probably going to complain. Simply because there's no one that I agree with 100%. And even if I happen to vote for the person that wins, I am almost certain I will have complaints. Because I already do.
No one is going to please me 100%.


[edit on 29-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by mybigunit
I dont want to hear ONE complaint at all.


Than you better close your ears.
Because no matter what I can guarantee you I'm probably going to complain. Simply because there's no one that I agree with 100%. And even if I happen to vote for the person that wins, I am almost certain I will have complaints. Because I already do.
No one is going to please me 100%.


[edit on 29-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]


Yeah I cant find anyone to please me either but that is in a different realm...


With that being said I hear ya but once again you are being asked to vote the lesser of 2 evils and either way you will not be satisfied. But what Im telling you is that the things you DO like about Obama will not come to fruition because he is a government schill just like McCain. They have one agenda and that is death to American sovereignty via some globalist slave type agenda.

BTW Cute dog Im going to be buying a German Shepherd in a month or so when we move. Cant wait.

[edit on 29-7-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


You might be right. Like the OP said, I think you're right. I put about 95% on it. And in that case, my vote does not matter one way or the other.

But that leaves 5%... And if that 5% is right... I'm going to be thanking my lucky stars that I voted for the guy who saved us from starting the third world war.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by TheRepublic
 

Then offer some other peaceful option other than not voting. Too many people have fought and died for your right to vote to just throw it away.

Elections can be manipulated yes, but not so easily stolen. There will be plenty of people watching how this election goes and I'm sure there will be disputes. We will have to wait and see how it turns out.

Voting is the one tool we have to change things peacefully. Any other option may seem appealing, but you have no guarantee things will be better afterwards.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I no longer think it's a superiority thing. I think it's an ethical thing. And that I can fully respect.

I just hope that the majority can understand and respect why I'm making the choice I'm making, too...


I'm sure its not a superiority thing with most of them.

True, after reading "it all" i get a deeper understand where some of them are coming from.

That still doesn't change my personal experiences with these types of people

Afterall - what better way to formulate an opinion on someone than off of personal experience



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by Hal9000
 


well i have no gurantee things will be better if i do vote.
I have voted before, and i know nothing changes when i do that.
every election i vote, every election this country goes farther down the toilet. no more it stops here.

And just so you know i am voting, i am voting that i am not satisifed with any of my choices. i do this by not voting. when they announce how many people voted in this election this year i want the number to be embarrasingly low. that way no matter which a---hole gets elected they will not have a mandate. they will not have support. they will be on thin ice from day one and will have to try and gain peoples trust.

i do not want to hear on the news that "the american people have spoken" because while we have spoken it has not been in support of either of these two canidates. we have spoken through silence and sometimes silence is stronger than any word you can say.

and just so you know i am well aware of the sacrifices others have made so that i could have the oppertunity to vote. Ive had relatives that have died in wars for this country so i understand, and i assure you they would be disgusted at the choices this years election and horrified whith the rotted out corpse of what this country now is. they would realize the election process is a sham and would understand the need to vote in a way that cannot be manipulated.



posted on Jul, 29 2008 @ 07:32 PM
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If a rediculously low amount of people turned out to vote something like 1 million. The only message these NWO higher ups would receive is. Better than expected, we won, they've accepted it.
I don't vote but it sure as hell aint to send a message. It's just simply not worth the time.






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