Boeing's Phantom Works

Hey guys, this is my first thread in the Advanced Aircraft Forum so please go easy on me . I live near Seattle and have heard about Boeing's Phantom Works facility and was wondering what your guys' opinion is on the program. I've read that is comparable to the Skunk Works, but I don't really think anyone can compare to those people and the amazing work they do.

I have also assumed for quite a while that the Boeing facilities around this area are either linked underground (via tunnels, buildings etc..) due to their location to one another. The Renton plant, which I live near, is used primarily for 737 production. About 10 miles south is another facility, located in Tukwila, that I believe is part of Boeing's Space programs. Then, of course, you have Boeing Field in Seattle which is home to the Museum of Flight and a large number of run of the mill office buildings. Finally about 20 miles north, in Everett, you have the other production facility which is used for the 777 and 787 development (please feel free to correct me).

I guess I have three questions going in this thread now. One, is the Phantom Works an underground facility working on top secret advanced projects? Two, is there a possibility of a complex underground network connecting these facilities? And three, is it possible that there is also large underground buildings at these locations as well?

Thank you guys for your input and I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Droops



[edit on 27-7-2008 by DrOOpieS]

More knowledgable folks may chime in, but heres my reply 'off the top of my head'.

Boeings 'Phantom works' is an amazingly hi-tech environment designed to put cutting edge technology into airframe and system development for high risk projects. The research and development done here I believe is then 'farmed out' to other Boeing units to put into practical airframes.

Thus it could be said that the Phantom works is a catalyst for innovative Boeings products.

reply to post by Dan Tanna


Thanks for the reply Dan. Sounds like a pretty reasonable idea. I worked at a local Golf Club 4 years ago; Boeing would have banquets pretty regularly with companies from all over the world. I remember seeing and hearing a lot of information about the development of the 787 as well as lots of concept drawings of the new "flying wing" transport (which I can't remember the name off the top of my head). Very cool stuff though, especially for someone who enjoys aviation as much as I do.

[edit on 27-7-2008 by DrOOpieS]

I'll try to get a picture from Google Earth of this area and make a type of map explaining what I mean for the proximity and location of these facilities. That would probably help you guys understand where I am coming from with these questions.

Ok I have made a "map" of where the locations of these facilities are. Please forgive me for my amazing MS Paint abilities, but hopefully this will help out.




[edit on 27-7-2008 by DrOOpieS]

The Boeing Phantom Works (formerly McDonnell Douglas Phantom Works) is located at Lambert Field in St. Louis. Missori. Their most famous secret project is the now declassified Bird of Prey technology demonstrator.

There is a good article of the BoP here:
www.dreamlandresort.com...

The Phantom Works was also involved with the X-36 tailless technology demonstrator and X-45 unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) technology demonstrator programs.

reply to post by Shadowhawk


Thank you for the info! That clears up that question. I'm also a bit sad because I've driven around these places trying to find this place and now I find out its on the other side of the country!

Plus, anything named after a Klingon Warship is a win in my book. That thing looks like it would be a handful to fly. The F-117 is pretty difficult by itself. I can't even begin to imagine how hard the BoP is to operate, even with fly by wire controls. A very beautiful aircraft though, no doubt about that.





[edit on 27-7-2008 by DrOOpieS]

reply to post by DrOOpieS


The Bird of Prey flew real easy and sweet according to the test pilot. It wasn't some go faster monster, just a gentle cruise in a test bed to figure out what was what.

beautiful craft all the same though.

reply to post by Dan Tanna


Very interesting. It's great to see "outside of the box" ideas and styles applied to new aircraft. It's a nice breath of fresh air.

I've also fixed the map I made. Hopefully it will look a little more uniform.



There are runways at three of the four locations on this map: Boeing Field, Everett and Renton. I would only think that the Boeing Field and Everett airstrips are used for air transport due to their large runways. The airfield in Renton is a municipal airport; the 737's are the largest aircraft used at this particular location due to the short length of the runway.

[edit on 27-7-2008 by DrOOpieS]

I live myself about five miles from the Everett plant, by Picnic Pointe. In fact I visited the Renton one today while on a quest at Fry's to find some adapters. [One which turned up empty -- But the building was impressive none-the-less, definitely the tallest of the bunch.]

Unfortunately, it's to my belief that there is little evidence regarding an underground area between them. More likely, they're grouped together for greater efficiency in general operations.

However, if when I get back [Trip to Alaska] you would like me to bring you to some of Boeing's unmarked warehouses in Seattle where they keep some pretty objects, I'd be more than happy. Can't promise you a trip in, though you might find it interesting.

Actually, according to the three pilots who flew it, the Bird of Prey's performance characteristics were kind of marginal.

Due to cost and schedule factors Phantom Works engineers designed the Bird of Prey with a mechanically actuated, hydraulically powered irreversible flight control system instead of more complex and expensive digital fly-by-wire controls. For roll control, pushrods and a mechanical mixer assembly linked the stick and rudder pedals to four control surfaces – elevons on the inner wings and rudderons on the drooped outer wing panels. Bell cranks and levers in the mixer provided control gains based on predicted stability derivatives from wind-tunnel data and computational fluid dynamics.

During the maiden flight the pilot discovered the airplane had marginal gear-down handling qualities due to excessive drag, nearly three times greater than predicted. He also found the Bird of Prey had marginal stability in pitch and was unstable in roll and yaw. Directional stability was particularly poor at low angles of attack. These characteristics had a significant impact on the airplane’s basic flying qualities.

Relative time delay between roll caused by the pilot’s application of the elevon and roll produced by the aircraft's yawing motion caused overall roll motion to be out of phase with pilot inputs. This resulted in a mild pilot-induced oscillation.

To solve the problem, the control mixer assembly was redesigned. By the end of the fifth flight the Bird of Prey demonstrated adequate flying qualities. On the next sortie the landing gear was retracted for the first time. The initial flights demonstrated the design’s basic airworthiness and paved the way for performance envelope expansion and low-observables testing. The airplane was soon flying at design speed and altitude. Only 38 missions were flown between 1996 and 1999, roughly one sortie per month.

The Bird of Prey’s unique configuration significantly affected its flight performance. Although it looked like a futuristic fighter plane it had a thrust-to-weight ratio more like that of a cargo aircraft, but with a much smaller wing area. The airplane’s overall performance was limited by poor lateral-directional stability at low angles of attack, but improved dramatically when the landing gear was retracted.

Nice find, Shadow. How stealthy was it, or is that still classified?

Originally posted by DrOOpieS
That thing looks like it would be a handful to fly. The F-117 is pretty difficult by itself. I can't even begin to imagine how hard the BoP is to operate, even with fly by wire controls.

Uhm, Fly By Wire is designed to compensate for that, so you aren't flying anything more difficult than any other aircraft in its class.

RichardPrice:
The BoP didn't have fly-by-wire controls. It was equipped with a mechanically actuated, hydraulically powered irreversible flight control system. Pushrods and a mechanical mixer assembly linked the stick and rudder pedals to the control surfaces.

HatTrick:
The Bird of Prey incorporated a variety of stealth features to minimize radar, infrared, visual and acoustic signatures. The overall shape of the low profile, tailless, blended fuselage with sharply cranked aft-set wings contributed to an extremely low radar cross-section (the exact value is still classified!). Flexible covers concealed gaps between fixed structures and moveable control surfaces. Designers were careful to ensure edge alignment on the canopy, landing gear doors, wings and fuselage to minimize radar backscatter. To eliminate radar reflections from the engine compressor face, the powerplant was buried deep in the fuselage and hidden behind the canopy and a curved inlet duct. The engine exhaust mitigated the airplane’s acoustic signature. A paint scheme consisting of several shades of gray reduced the visual contrast of shadows from various parts of the airplane.


[edit on 28-7-2008 by Shadowhawk]

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
RichardPrice:
The BoP didn't have fly-by-wire controls. It was equipped with a mechanically actuated, hydraulically powered irreversible flight control system. Pushrods and a mechanical mixer assembly linked the stick and rudder pedals to the control surfaces.

I know, I was addressing his blanket statement about FBW.

reply to post by DrOOpieS

Tunnel's go around the planet, under the ocean's also.

I dont know about you guys, but dont underground tunnels cost a fortune? I know here in brisbane they are planning an underground tunnel thats like 6km or more long... maybe 30km and it's going to cost $14 billion or so. just so trraffic can go from one side of brisbane to the airport faster. Riudiculously priced....