Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
As for socialism, yes, most Americans despise it. This country was founded on the principles of working hard to get ahead, not working hard so that someone who doesn't work hard, can benefit from your work.

See that is not what socialism is about at all.

Of course, only you know what "Socialism" is. And all the world leaders that have proclaimed they where Socialists where just morons who didn't have the smallest notions about politics.

Hey, that makes you a great Candidate, why don't you run for office so that you can explain to the Socialists what Socialism really means???

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND
At least most of USA wealth was earned threw hard work, every bit of wealth the UK ever had was earned throw pillage, plunder and drug trade...

LOL most of the wealth in the US was produced during the period of SLAVERY and your land was pillaged, and plundered from American Natives.

I'm Canadian, as I state in another post...
Slavery was introduced by Europeans (English, French, Portuguese, Dutch) and wasn't actually that effective in producing wealth, as the Southern States lack of money and resources proves.
As for the Natives, again Europeans started it, and there was no great economic native empire in North America. I will concede that the land was put to better use, and generated wealth, threw the hard work of European colonists. The land, however, was not "taken" from anyone, since most North American Native tribes had no conception of land ownership, and were largely nomadic. The land was merely occupied, and some bough...Like everywhere else on the planet...

The USA did not became the worlds greatest economical power due to slavery or to land occupation. This status only started with the industrial revolution and the consequential transformation of raw materials into industrial goods the whole word has learned to love and depend on...

Here we go again ;the socialst/communism confusion and people fall right into the capitalist trap of socialism is evil bunkum.I can't be bothered going throught the motions of explaning again.Why are you bothered if a communist president is elected?You already live in a totalitarian regime that would have made Stalin proud.

Its funny how americans have no idea what socialism is. No guys its not like hippies, communism, monarchy or whatever ppl came up in this thread.

And guess what, people living in europe and paying your dreaded "tax for the poor" live better than people in the US even after sharing some of their revenues. And I speak of experience having lived in both US and europe.

Your govt and media has created this socialist monster propaganda and most swallow it.

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
As for socialism, yes, most Americans despise it. This country was founded on the principles of working hard to get ahead, not working hard so that someone who doesn't work hard, can benefit from your work.

See that is not what socialism is about at all.

Of course, only you know what "Socialism" is. And all the world leaders that have proclaimed they where Socialists where just morons who didn't have the smallest notions about politics.

Hey, that makes you a great Candidate, why don't you run for office so that you can explain to the Socialists what Socialism really means???

Oh for God's sake..go and buy a copy of Das Kapital and learn some facts and not the brainwashed claptrap you get spoonfed to you by your capitalist manipulators who just want to exploit you for their own ends.Yes ,socialism it's awful is'nt it?Is that why,as one of the richest countries in the world,you have an infant moratality rate on par with Croatia?God forbid you'redistribute wealth so you have a health care system that actually provides health care and saves lives .That would be terible now would'nt it and before you know it you'll all be walking down the strret singing 'We'll keep the red flag fliying here...' and 'we love Lenin'

Working for the good of your common man - looking after your fellow citizen - a sense of community, equality - freedom, liberty - in fact almost every icon thought of American psyche is based on the socialist ideology. Capitalism is intrinsically opposed to these very ideals - getting ahead at all costs, at the expense of your neighbour, dog eat dog.

Further taxes are what allows your country to get ahead and provides you with the infrastructure to make the money you make - it is the very thing which allows a society to make great leaps forward depending on what is done with it.

The nations on this plant which lead the key performance indicators on health and well being - vastly outstripping the united States which is wallowing last - are Scandinavian countries and of course Australia, which all run the highest tax rates on earth. It is a sense of pride for them that their society is a bastion of equality, freedom, health and education - in contrast to America which is festering with crime, ignorance, division, and is falling apart at the very seems.

These kinds of issues require independant thinking beyond what you have always ismply preseumed.

and by the way Lenin was considered to be quite a hottie in his time.Can't say the same for Marx or Stalin though.One looks like a mad professor and the looks like a scary uncle.Rosa Luxembourg was coll ,we named our daughter after her-one ,brillaint babe and leader of the German Revolution.All power to the Soviets,luv Candy

I always wanted to live in a democracy, but I was born an American citizen so I guess i'm out of luck.

A society (country) who cannot look after its own people, ie the poor, is not a society at all, hence the US is a Third World country with money.

You tell me if it is right to let your own citizens suffer?

The American working person is the most exploited and downtrodden in the Western World ...... if thats your idea of the American Dream, you can keep it. I'll stay my side of the pond.

As someone has pointed out, look to the Northern European/Scandinavian countries and you will see that their standards of living are far higher than Americas.

In the UK we have a 37.5 hr week, a minimum wage, 4 weeks minimum annual leave entitlement plus bank holidays, maternity and paternity leave, sick leave entitlement, a National Health Service - all for a tax of approximately 1/3 of total income. 70% of the population own their own homes.

I am not saying that our (European) system is perfect, but I would rather be poor in Europe than poor in America.

Originally posted by Cyberbian
I always wanted to live in a democracy, but I was born an American citizen so I guess i'm out of luck.

Why don't you leave and experience "real democracy"? Are you being held hostage by the US Government?

Just get on a plane, choose your country and leave...

Originally posted by Wotan
I think you may be confusing communist with socialism. As far as I can see most of what he is proposing, the rest of the western world have already. You have to realise that the US style of living is not the norm, it is the exception. For some reason that i can never fathom, the US has this aversion to socialist principles.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill.

Originally posted by Wotan
Now you will probably hate me for saying this but ..........

THe US seems to live in the past, especially the ''this is what we were founded on''. Move on, it was a long time ago, things evolve. Until you can get rid of that baggage the US will be stuck up its own arse.

WW2 was a bloody long time ago - We in the UK have moved on. Its totally irrelevant nowadays. Jeez, we dont go on about the battle of waterloo, trafalgar etc etc.

It has been said,

Those whom do not know the past, are doomed to repeat it.

Knowing the past and learning from their mistakes is probably the most important aspect you can contemplate in attempt to create a viable political strategy.

Well that statement is good coming from an American

Basically what has happened to many of the freedoms, and original foundations of the constitution have been taken away or abridged quietly one by one, so to compare or call Obama a communist simply because you choose to select what a mentor is not a fair assumption.

The baseball, apple pie, all american neighborhood and spirit have been slipping away a long time ago, re-ordering of social class has speedily been happening where there are 2 classes rich and poor, some of what you are using to bring forth and present make it seem that having Obama elected would somehow greatly change what many already see as a great departure from the country they knew in black and white movies and possibly mayberry or leave it to beaver like utopian fantasy.

The one thing that is changing us is the absorption of our economy into the world economy, and having really gave up our manufacturing base and edge, we have become a consumption society, and very recently many businesses are selling out and selling off capital, now we as a country are completely dependent for the most part on the world to survive so that defeats the ideal of you benefitting from so called hard work and not letting others benefit that have not worked, debt into the multiple trillions, loans owed to enemies who assist in financing our own war efforts, in the eyes of the world the U.S. is benefitting from the hard work of others to support it's consumption based society.. I could go on and on but I do not believe that Obama could turn us into the hammer and sickle you are proposing, he would be no more a dictator than what many have compared our current administration's executive to.

Originally posted by Wotan
A society (country) who cannot look after its own people, ie the poor, is not a society at all, hence the US is a Third World country with money.

You tell me if it is right to let your own citizens suffer?

The American working person is the most exploited and downtrodden in the Western World ...... if thats your idea of the American Dream, you can keep it. I'll stay my side of the pond.

As someone has pointed out, look to the Northern European/Scandinavian countries and you will see that their standards of living are far higher than Americas.

In the UK we have a 37.5 hr week, a minimum wage, 4 weeks minimum annual leave entitlement plus bank holidays, maternity and paternity leave, sick leave entitlement, a National Health Service - all for a tax of approximately 1/3 of total income. 70% of the population own their own homes.

I am not saying that our (European) system is perfect, but I would rather be poor in Europe than poor in America.

I know most of the UK, are you telling me that there are no poor in the UK, and that everybody is taken care of??? (I own a house in Plymouth)

No, the European is, that is why there is very little social escalation in most of Europe, that is why so many people from Europe, and the UK, come to America.

My native Canada has standards of living higher then they do and, as you must know this system is increasingly being turned away from, since Swedish, Danish and Dutch companies started going under or moving elsewhere. (Also note the unemployment rate in those countries)

For how long will you have the Welfare state? Most European Governments I have talked to expect the system to be bust in 10 to 20 years. As you know, the age of retirement is being increased, in almost every country, from three to five years (here, in Portugal you have to work 5 more years before you can retire). Thus, many pensioners in European countries will be dead, or in their last years, when they become eligible for their pensions.
As for the unemployment rates, Spain ~16%; France and Germany ~12%, UK (specially grievous in Scotland) ~8 or 9%....

Europe has many systems, to which are you referring?

As for being unemployed I totally agree with you (UK vs. USA), but again in depends on the country you live in...And it is also a question of mentality, like a Briton born, or raised, under "Old" Labor you always think of unemployment as the basis for your theory, Americans, on the other hand, think of giving the lest they can to their Government...

When referring to a country please state it's name, since I have no knowledge of a country called Europe...even thou I have traveled throw most of the Continent, and have houses in some countries...

Sweden: Saab - gone under, now belong to Ford MC (US firm)
Volvo - gone under, now belongs to GM (US firm)
Ericsson - gone under, now Sony/Ericsson ( Japanese firm)
After threatening the Swedish Government, with moving to another country, it got special tax exemptions...
Welfare State - Actually a Canadian model implemented after WW2, will be bankrupt, at this rate of Government expansions, between 2015 and 2018, according to the mildly right new Swedish Government...
Unemployment rate nearing 15% (according to The Financial Times)...

Just an example of what I am saying...