Do we really want to elect a Communist?

Originally posted by ANOK

Actually capitalism really doesn't work.

Capitalism works

The reason the world is in such a mess now is because of capitalism.

The reason the world hasn't been blown away is because of capitalism

It's why we're in Iraq etc. It's why so many in the world are starving. It's why people are losing their homes.

Now yo uare begining to sound like, if we just get rid of capitalism we will all live in utopia happily ever after. People are losing their homes because they don't understand finance and the fiduciary responsibility of disciplined money management and are victims of usery by their own stupid choices. Caveat Emptor

If it wasn't for capitalism we could have been off oil years ago, the only reason we keep using it is because it makes more money than solar, or other cheaper energy sources.

That's speculation and in a capitalist society if solar was that much better, it would have taken off in the market place. Solar still has serious weakneses and is not a viable replacement. Even to this day it has much further to go before it can be considered. Had we dumped oil for solar and put huge investment in solar, we wouldn't be any better off. Solar is a big industry where I live but the homes that have it, we see it getting replaced all the time.

What about all the inventions that have been suppressed, because they would hurt someone else’s inflated bank account. This country has been living on debt for years, it’s not making enough money to cover it, the wealth in this country is an illusion. What happens when the monies gone?

with socialism, the money doesn't even matter because you don't own it.

Under capitalism you are not free, someone owns you, your boss, your bank, your landlord, your government.

Capitalism means you have obligations and you take care of your obligations, No one owns you and that is just sillyness.

It's a master-slave system. The few get to live in luxury while the many struggle with scraps that drop off their table. We are dominated, exploited, coerced, repressed.

No it isn't a master slave system and those that know how to use the system can make a very good living. If you do not know how to make your value commensurate with work, knowledge and your experience, than I suggest you hook up with those that know how to turn a buck, and make that buck work for them. Go read a book, see a seminar by suzi orton, read think and grow rich by napolean hill, I don't care just leave your timidity for getting a life of your own out of my life because you sound like a minimalist. This country didn't get where it has by everyone being to gutless to think they can be more than average income earners.

Even the poor here get so much in Government aid, they get dirt cheap housing in nice places, and around $900 a month SSI just to sit on their ass and get high. Socialism makes everyone equal.

They are all equally poor.

(the top wealthy 5% who own 80% of the wealth).

Yeah and that has nothing to do with Capitalism, Capitalism only makes it possible that a percentage like that can even happen in the first place. Do you get that? You see you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Capitalism doesn't tell anyone who will be wealthy and who won't. Ability and training and talent and skill and knowledge is what does that.

Capitalism enables us to discover who the 5% are that have the income performance where they are producing that much more than the 80% that just don't give a hoot. You are asking us to join that 80% perfomance level that wants to ride on the coat tails of that one capitalist who lifts for every ten socialists who like to lean.

Socialism can't work without villifying top income earning perfomers as if they got where they are by appointment and not hard work and sacrifice.

When it comes to socialism, you sacrifice true success and barter it for security and mediocrity. You can keep your silly socialism, it is insulting to even suggest anyone sell themselves so short thinking if we all care about everyone, then we all win!

Only in a perfect world of the Borg but NOT here in the U.S.

How can the individual fully express his own desires when he has to spend most of his time labouring to survive in a system set up to benefit the minority

You think like the typical socialist and associate wealth with hard labor rather than working smart and knowing how to use compound interest and the rule of 72.

Socialism means you are condemned to settling for the crumbs of life and working for everyone but you. Socialism is for the ambitionless know nothings that have no dream to be anything more than a cog in the system keeping things on a flatline and they dream in black and white never seeing them become reality. It is a lifestyle of rut and frustration for those talented individuals it holdsback just rewards and they begin to let lose their gifted ability never amounting to much more than the guy selling meat on a stick and the malls food court.

Some people giving orders and others obeying them: this is the essence of servitude. Of course, as [right-Libertarians] smugly [observe], 'one can at least change jobs,' but you can't avoid having a job -- just as under statism one can at least change nationalities but you can't avoid subjection to one nation-state or another. But freedom means more than the right to change masters. Bob Black ["The Libertarian as Conservative, The Abolition of Work and other essays, p. 147]

Financial independence is every bit within the average Americans grasp as poverty is. When you can see the benefits in that, you are the captain of your own ship. Where you get this idea of slave and master is just typical socialist embellished bull.

‘Freedom means more than the right to change masters’
The only choice you have is to be governed, exploited, or destitute and homeless. Capitalism destroys freedom…

capitialism enables all we take for granted and your grim version of our ways is just plane bunk. You don't sound like you could work an honest days work for an honest days pay on your life.

[w]e stress the advantages of the free enterprise system, we complain about the totalitarian state, but... we have created more or less of a totalitarian system in industry, particularly in large industry. Robert E. Wood, the chief executive officer of Sears, [quoted by Allan Engler, Apostles of Greed, p. 68]

That isn't capitalism, that is greed and the only way greed works is when we add more socialism to our capitalism and that never works. We don't use capitalism now so why are you critical of it? The socialist model of economics and social welfare, politics etc has always produced a mediocre minds having no more incentive than to do just the least they have to to get by on whatever they think is never enough and when it comes yo socialism, it is NEVER enough.

Socialism affords you just enough out of life to piss you off.

I could write a book on what’s wrong with capitalism, but I’ll leave at this for now.

See this is the typical problem with people into socialism and why they can't sell it. It is like the comment you just made.

No one will buy a book about socialism until you can show you know a little more than what you read about on websites. We can all do that.

Like I said, it sounds wonderful on paper and it may be right for you, in fact I think it IS best for you.


But it isn't for me, and THAT is why we don't have it here because with Capitalism, I can make as little as I want or I can make more than I expected, more than my wildest dreams in some cases.


I would rather try something great and fail then do next to nothing and succeed. Socialism would be a slap in the face to every single American in our history who has ever spilled his blood for me so that I'd be lucky enough to have what only Capitalism can do and that is set us free to invest in the American economy and foreign markets. It can enable true finacial independance for those who understand it and the only time we suffer is when people with your thinking, pollute it with the ideas you have posted as the be all end all of all that ails our world. Nothing could be more ridiculous and stupid.

Socialism is nothing new and it certainly has never brought a society to the heights capitalism has brought the United States to where we lead the world in labor output, Science and technology, reusable and new energy alternatives and still have enough to lead the world in development assistance of other third world country s. The top 25 innovations of the last quarter century, 22 are American.


If you knew anything about economics and the way finance, capitalism works, you would realize the dollar isn't weak because of our econmy tanking but it is strong enough to withstand the weight of another country currency it has to support, that being the Iraqi Dinar currency.

If you don't think you can do it in a capitalist society, then don't NOT do it, in a socialist one because either way, you are nothing but a liability






[edit on 31-7-2008 by XIDIXIDIX]

reply to post by rikriley

One major problem we have is the dumbing down of the U.S. populace by our government operated school systems.

I couldn't agree with you more. Having been in the business world for 3 decades and then teaching at a college for a decade, I can attest to that first hand. Let me explain what some of the problems are:

1.) The unions are the worst thing that ever happened to the teaching profession. Between the unions and the tenure system, it is virtually impossible to get rid of a poor teacher.

2.)In addition to retaining poor teachers, there is no incentive for most teachers to improve the system. In fact, those of us that tried, were told we were "making it worse for the rest of the teachers". I was one of the few at the state college that I taught at, that did not support the union. Those that refused to join were still forced to pay 89% of the union dues, because our state was a "fair share" (what an oxymoron) state.

3.) In addition, pressure by parents, students and schools to get good grades, tends to "dumb down" the curriculum so that everyone gets A's. (Grade Inflation)

There are other reasons, but that's off topic. I had created a thread about this several months ago, and there was good input from the board.
Now, as it relates to the topic at hand:
Would things change in a socialist or communist state? Probably for the worse. When the Soviet Union existed, regardless of what job you had, the "salaries" were roughly the same- doctors made the same as office workers. Of course, the state said that it provided for "all the needs of all the people", but that was a joke. Do you want a doctor performing critical heart surgery on you or a loved one, if it didn't matter whether they saved your life or not? I know I wouldn't. Fortunately, in a capitalistic system, law suits and threat of losing their privilege to work are a good check to lessen malpractice. In addition, financial reward for those great doctors encourages good medical practice.(Now before all the doctors chime in, I understand that most doctors do the best that they can, but in a state like the old Soviet Union, I've heard of many stories where malpractice was rampant.) Socialized medicine has many ills, not the least of which is loss of choice of doctors, and long waits for treatment. From what I can see, Obama is very pro-socialized medicine. No thank you, Obama!

"No child left behind" was another government failure. How did they measure if no child was left behind- they gave tests. Great. Now teachers "teach to the test". Memorization is all that counts.

What our educational system needs to do is get students to THINK, ANALYZE and SYNTHESIZE, NOT MEMORIZE.

reply to post by XIDIXIDIX


Excellent points.
I would just like to add one more.
ANOK said that if it weren't for capitalism, we'd be off oil by now.
Well, several of the Socialist apologists on this thread said that the US is the LAST major country NOT to be socialist, and that we were all alone. IF that is so, then WHY didn't all those SOCIALIST countries convert over to 100% renewable power?
So ANOK and the socialist apologists have contradicted themselves.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Socialized medicine, look to Canada and Great Britain for things to come if Obamasnation is implemented. Let me see this guy deserves a heart by-pass this one does not and the guy that has been approved for the by-pass surgery lets see we can book this guy's surgery eight months from now provided you are still alive.

Where will all the American doctors go to Dubai or go to where ever they can get paid for their practicing of medicine? Look for a massive exodus of our medical professionals in the U.S. if socialized medicine is implemented by Obamasnation if he is elected. Rik Riley

reply to post by NorthWolfe CND


You are very mistaken. The land was stolen from the many Tribal people across the Americas. Mass genocide took place at the hands of both Europeans coming to the Americas and by the American government themselves.

Canada was no better as they put forth residential schools where numerous Native children were forced into concentration camp like conditions, beaten into submission, and stolen from their parents. Canada's recent apology to the many Native people in Canada is a sure sign of the wrong they did to the people.

The land was not put to better use either. They reaped the resources of the land, the sea, and polluted everything with diseases that were existed in the Americas.

You might be from Canada but your history is as dull as Bush's ability to read "War and Peace" without getting the two words mixed up.

It's unfortunate that you can't discuss American politics without being accused of hating Americans.
This is not true, we feel for you, as like us, you have no real chance to change anything for the better, because we live in two party systems which are almost indistinguishable from each other.
They take it in turn to rule on behalf of the lobby and pressure groups.
Obama's caving in to AIPAC, shows he's no different from Clinton or McCain, who grovelled before them as Obama had to.
Let's hope he refuses to attack Iran, on the instructions of the zionists, who have far more power than their numbers should give them.

reply to post by werz51

I agree completely.
AIPAC should not even be allowed to lobby Congress, as they, in reality represent a "Foreign Power"- Israel. This is exactly what our founding fathers wanted to prevent, namely "foreign entanglements" and dictates coming from overseas. Unfortunately, as soon as you say anything about AIPAC or Israel, you're accused of being anti-semitic. Look at what happened to Pat Buchanan, when he ran for President, and made his comment about calling it Israel's "Amen Corner of Congress". He was vilified by the MSM as an anti-semite.
It has NOTHING to do with antisemitism- It has to do with our Founding Fathers' wishes to prevent foreign entanglements. No other foreign power has as much influence on our country as Israel does. Ron Paul also tried to speak out against AIPAC, for the same reason that I mentioned, and was accused of being antisemitic.
I ask- What is antisemitic about wanting to adhere to the principles of our Founding Fathers.
Obama has bowed completely to AIPAC in his June 4th speech. There is no doubt where he stands with AIPAC. It's interesting, he talks about wanting to get along with everyone, but when it comes to AIPAC, there's no doubt that he's taking sides in the Middle East. That, to me, does not sound like someone trying to bring two sides together,

I'd like to point out that it was only in George Washington's farewell address that a warning to entangling alliance's was given. Following France's descent into near anarchy with the French Revolution, and France being America's ally in the Revolutionary War, it would be easy to predict the US being sucked into European affairs - which eventually happened anyway (thus proving Washington's concerns). However, the US has never shied from forming alliances since it's inception, despite Washington's advice, and it's alliance with Israel is only logical, as they are one of the few stable democratic societies in the crucial and volatile Middle East.

reply to post by GruntOOrah

Unfortunately, this is more than an alliance. A country that has a lobby such as AIPAC lobbying congress goes way beyond an alliance. In addition, we should consider what this "alliance" is costing us in lives and money. We're shedding our soldiers blood for Israel, while they sit on the sidelines. What about the rights of the Palestinians? Don't they deserve a fair shake also? There is no even-handedness in this entire middle-east process. Never mind the 3 billion we give Israel each and every year. Obviously, regardless of which of the 2 candidates gets elected, nothing will change, and conflict will continue in the middle-east ad infinitum. You know, if we stopped tipping the scale in Israel's favor, just maybe, they'd have to learn to get along with their neighbors, and compromise. Until that time, there is really no incentive for Israel to make peace with their neighbors, because we will continue to back them up.

Communist Obama and his Pro-Abortion Socialist Gestapo will CHANGE USA into USSA - United Socialist States of America.

www.marianland.com...

No we don't. What the country needs is another right-wing, war-monger who can't control his temper. One more republican should be enough to totally destroy the country.
But then after electing the Bushes (dumb and dumber) - twice, and tricky dick and ronald rayguns - America is about to finally pay the price for the stupidity of it's people.

I think it's unfair to label Barack Obama as a Communist. His policies and ideologies also share many Socialist tenets as well.

I think his goal is to level the playing field domestically as well as globally . His vision is World where the "Haves" and "Have Nots" will stand shoulder-to-shoulder and work for the good of all mankind.

To accomplish this goal it will require those who have more than their fair share of the World's wealth to donate a portion of it to those who have less. In time everyone will be on a more or less equal footing. Those who are able to work will do so, and those who are unable to will still flourish and not suffer unnecessarily.

Can you imagine how good you will feel when you no longer have to be a part of the rat race and materialism that now plagues our society? Everyone will be equal, and all the petty jealousies and prejudices between us and our neighbors will be diminished.

Hope, Change, Unity!



[edit on 1-8-2008 by LLoyd45]

There is something sinister about Obama! I believe he is the antichrist!! I won't vote for him and have that crap on my conscience! I'm not voting! Besides, do you want every day to be black day? We've always had white presidents and still we can't get white day! Oh that's right, we would be called racists.... OFFEND THIS!!!

reply to post by ProfEmeritus
Repubs have nothing positive to point to, so they come up with all sorts of weirdness.

reply to post by dgtempe
My dad fought in WWII against the Fascist regimes that started it. Now, under the current administration, the United States fits all 14 of the criteria for a FASCIST government! Living under a FASCIST regime can cloud one's perspective. Barak Obama is NOT a communist or a socialist. He is a progressive member of the DEMOCRATIC Party. Google the term FASCIST and study the results! Frankly, I'm tired of "war", occupation in disguise; I'm tored of those who worship the flag a s a religious icon and forsake the Constitution. And, I'm tired of those who want ot legislate their religiousity!

Joey in Pittsburgh

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Obama disqualified himself when he committed treason.

Yes, that is a strong statement. This is how I got there.

He made false, unsubstantiated claims of war crimes by American military members.

The Constitution defines treason as "providing aid and comfort" to our enemies.

Propagandizing for our enemies is "providing aid and comfort" to our enemies.

reply to post by XIDIXIDIX


A good post. I also believe socialism isn't practical - but I still don't think Obama is a communist. Socially minded perhaps, but he's not going to hang the hammer and sickle from the White House.

The danger with capitalism is that requires constant growth and expansion, or you hit a recession and everyone panics. I'd love for capitalism to keep growing because it's lifted many people out of poverty and will continue to do so.

However, the planet still has limited resources, and there's lots of jostling around right now about who is going to get those resources.

I'm not thinking of war necessarily, but 'coal miners' down in a mine lining the coffers of big industry.

Unlimited growth would good to have, but we don't yet have the resources and means of protecting the environment to enable it.

America has been virtually a communist country for a long time now.
Between national and local governments and our so called 'social security' tax, we are taxed at nearly a 50% rate.

The size of government has been increasing without bound and dominates the economy and even competes unfairly with the private sector if necessary. The whole concept of robbing the rich via taxes to give to the poor is a communist idea and is meant to replace the duty of the christian to provide for the poor. The graduated income tax is a communist concept that is the foundation of the democratic parties politics of envy.

Today there is virtually no difference between the US communist party platform and the democratic party platform. Because of this, the communist party supported the democratic candidates in the last national elections.


Yes, Obama is a communist, that is expected. What is not expected, however, is his racial politics of black superiority or his support for radical Islam. The latter I find quite troubling. He is the ultimate Manchurian candidate for one of the most evil, misogynist, America hating and vile forces ever to walk the earth.

I believe that Obama will easily win this election. McCain has zero charisma, and foolish voters actually think charisma is important in a leader. They think charisma trumps self control, integrity, and wisdom. If their leader is smart and charismatic that's all they need (not that McCain is filled with these qualities.)

That's why the antichrist will be the most popular politician who ever walks the planet. (That's also why George Bush is not the antichrist.) If Obama were running for the head of the EU, I might think he was the antichrist.

Hey everybody, instead of this back-and-forth crap about Obama vs. McCain, how about looking at a third party choice. I'm able to see that by voting for the status quo, which is the same as voting for the lesser of two evils, and THAT, folks, is a wasted vote.

Therefore, I'm pulling for Bob Barr this year, as I've voted Libertarian for several elections now. It's past time to get past the partisan politics, the squabbles over gay marriage and so forth. We have a country to repair, and a reputation to try and rebuild with the world. HOW ABOUT IT ???

Communism, Socialism, NaziIsm, Fascism, Democracy, Terrorism are just mind fantasy created by the Devil (via the Jesuits) to institute inquisitions in one place or another leading to pacified subservient populations.

The greatest slavery is the belief that the world is our home, that is is broken and needs to be fixed, that it is paradise lost. Knowing we have nothing, own nothing, possess nothing of this world, we can possibly keep, we still cling to the delusion that it's ours and important.

Humility is a great asset we often can't acquire without experiencing adversity. Even then it often last mere moments. Reality is what hides from us, what we hide from and ultimately must come to terms with. The reality that this world is and will always be a lie and we, as spirits, are not from here and don't really need it.

The Devil operates the mind on ideas and images.