NoRunRichard,

ArMaP is one of the most mellow, non-confrontational skeptics I've seen in these forums. If you're too sensitive to engage him, I suggest you look to yourself for the problem rather than blaming everyone else who simply doesn't agree with you.

Originally posted by NoRunRichard
ArMaP you're annoying like all skeptics are. You must remember that I'm a believer, not a skeptic, and I could never believe in anything a skeptic says, don't you dig that? And if you're a skeptic why do you and people like you insist on being in this forum. This is a believers' forum. You go to your own little skeptic forum box for closed-minded people like you.

NoRunRichard I think you are confusing skeptics with debunkers. A true skeptic holds a neutral position so is not biased towards fake or real. He examines the evidence and then comes to a well thought out conclusion.

I agree with you that the debunkers are annoying and should not be taken seriously. The skeptics however are a great asset to ATS in my opinion. Without them ATS would be some sort of dreamland.

I'm a believer myself but I know very well that there is no irrefutable proof for the existence of ET. So in the end I'm here to get to the truth, whatever the truth may be.

Lastly in my opinion you are not doing anybody any favours with your comments. I think that believers should also examine the evidence as best as possible and come to a well thought out conclusion. There is to much nonsense flying around and blindly believing everything is not doing the UFO field any good.

And no this board is not for believers only.


[edit on 23/9/08 by Fastwalker81]

Originally posted by Fastwalker81
NoRunRichard I think you are confusing skeptics with debunkers. A true skeptic holds a neutral position so is not biased towards fake or real. He examines the evidence and then comes to a well thought out conclusion.

All the responses the skeptics posted in here REJECT alien existence and visitation. On Page 66 of this thread I submitted the meaning of a skeptic and it fits the actions that they're doing in here.

I agree with you that the debunkers are annoying and should not be taken seriously. The skeptics however are a great asset to ATS in my opinion. Without them ATS would be some sort of dreamland.

There are debunkers in here also and their actions are closely related to pseudoskeptics. I stated in my previous posting that a forum could turn into a Disneyland in most cases (in response to one skeptic) but there are serious Ufologists and people who have the real evidences in their possessions. So the field of Ufology in some places are where you could get real and serious informations.

I'm a believer myself but I know very well that there is no irrefutable proof for the existence of ET. So in the end I'm here to get to the truth, whatever the truth may be.

There are irrefutable proofs like photos and several of these have already been posted in this thread, but they're all rejected by the skeptics.

Lastly in my opinion you are not doing anybody any favours with your comments. I think that believers should also examine the evidence as best as possible and come to a well thought out conclusion. There is to much nonsense flying around and blindly believing everything is not doing the UFO field any good.

There are credible photos in this thread posted by myself and others but the skeptics rejected them. In this way it is impossible to convince other people (the skeptics) with them. Anyway for me they are credible photos and since I believe in them I don't have a problem.

And no this board is not for believers only.

I don't mean the entire ATS forum, it's this forum only that I'm talking about. Remember that there are 1,300+ posts in this thread and the believers and skeptics have gotten nowhere. Common sense should tell anybody (especially the skeptics) that the situation is hopeless and that they should therefore end the argument. And this is what I'm going to do now. Goodbye.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

Originally posted by ArMaP
You are not the first person to say that, both sceptics and believers.

Therefore like all skeptics, what you're doing in here is stupidity, right?

Does that mean that you don't believe that I saw a thread before where people said those photos were from an old mannequin from the Roswell Museum?

When it comes to critical matters like this one people tend to be corrupt. So that statement could highly likely be false.

I was not the one who said that, other people said it, didn't you saw the thread whose link I posted?

I saw it. Most likely those people who said that are skeptics and they're probably planting the seed of doubt to everybody about that photo.

I can only speak for myself, and I am on this forum because I can and because I like it.

You can have all of this forum and the contents of it for yourself and your friends.

Strange, I did not saw anything about it when I signed up, maybe we should ask Simon Gray about it, after all he was the one who created ATS, he should know.

Read my response to Fastwalker, which is just above this posting, about this issue.

Closed-minded? Right, if you say so it must be true, after all you know me for so many years, right? You must think you know me better than myself...

This is a 1,300+ post forum and it has gotten nowhere. That should tell you something. Goodbye.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

Originally posted by NoRunRichard
I saw it. Most likely those people who said that are skeptics and they're probably planting the seed of doubt to everybody about that photo.

What you're demonstrating here is that you don't really understand the position of a true skeptic. You're still operating on a rather childish belief that skeptics are merely "out to get" believers, rather than insisting upon the utilization of reasonable doubt and logic. If you want to emotionalize the topic at hand, fine, but then don't question why this thread has extended to 1300+ posts without any new ground or understanding being broken.

Doubt is necessary. Why, you ask? Because otherwise you're merely pleading that every incidental photo, every incidental story, be accepted first and foremost as truth. No questions asked. This is clearly a most dangerous position to take, if the truth is truly what you care about.

If you honestly respect this topic, then you welcome the skeptic, because it is by rigid principles and high standards that truth is gleaned. There is no place in scientific truth for belief or wanton acceptance of any evidence on face value alone. This is not to punish you or rob you of your hopes or beliefs, but rather to uphold a standard that ensures the best measures possible have been employed to truly understand phenomena that presents itself to the observer. Nothing less should be expected.

What I've personally seen in this 1300+ thread is an intolerable amount of faulty reasoning and special pleading meant more to attack the skeptic, and thus lower his or her standards, rather than back up or support the claim of alien existence. The true intentions here have been made quite clear time and again.

He and others are the reason ufology has become a joke. The willingness to believe anything that is thrown thier way. Don't care what it is, how crappy the evidence may be, just as long as it fits into stories they hear. They hear of the big eyed grey alien....tada a pic of one...so it must be real no other explanation, no matter that it is shown to be fake, because as we all know skeptics and the government are just trying to keep this hidden.

Originally posted by thrashee

What I've personally seen in this 1300+ thread is an intolerable amount of faulty reasoning and special pleading meant more to attack the skeptic, and thus lower his or her standards, rather than back up or support the claim of alien existence. The true intentions here have been made quite clear time and again.

This should be the standard reply to NoRunRichard and the OP. The real reason why this thread is 1300+ posts is mainly due to intolerance and the efforts to inspire ignorance( or a closed sphere of knowledge) that NoRunRicherd and the OP have endeavoured in time and time again, especially their views pertaining to the true nature and role of scepticism, and more specifically, those sceptical of ET existence. The fervour with which they express their beliefs are only damaging the credibility of those with a sincere interest in finding truth when trying to explore this topic.
I applaud the many posters that have patiently and persistently tried to balance the discussion with logic, reason and open minded generosity when discussing the view that sceptics of ET existence take, and why they hold such a view. Bravo to you Thrashee.

Originally posted by polomontana

Why are these things far-fetched?

In a universe where only 4% is known and 96% is unknown, how can it be far fetched?

......A real skeptic doesn't know and this is why they are skeptical in the first place. If they had ABSOLUTE knowledge about these things, then there no longer skeptics.

As an aside, how do you know that 96% is unknown? Wouldn't that be predicated on knowing exactly how much there was to "know", in effect knowing the "unknown". Just a little thought to ponder.

Anyhow..... It really would be nice to have concrete indisputable proof. DNA, alloys that couldn't be made here on earth, a dead alien or recovered ship would be nice starters. Too many fuzzy photos and second and third hand accounts for me to not doubt.

There are a few compelling cases out there, but even those do not preclude the craft being advanced, secret military airframes.

Just probability alone would dictate theres other forms of life out there, the universe is very big and very old.

Life as we have seen on earth in bacteria and virii for example is vociferous and very hard to prevent from growing. The chances of Earth being unique in having lifely are so remote its not worth considering.

Whatever happened at the big bang id suggest the idea that earth being the only lump of rock to have been contaminated with microbes and organisms which allowed for evolution into higher life forms is exceptionally.

Ive heard scientists claim Earth was a "fluke" and my head spins with the nature of such a comment. How any self respecting scientist can make such a radical and illogical claim is beyond me. Everything we know about life suggests if can and will exist wherever it gets a foothold and out among billions of stars you can bet your life it has had plenty of footholds.

Whether or not life has ever reached Earth is an impossible point. It would be important to know how old the other solar systems are.

If the great bang in another solar system occured 9 billion years ago for example, then theres a high chance life there has evolved to a much more advanced level than life here. Older systems still might have even far more advanced life.

So assuming thats the case theres no logical reason to discount another intelligent species studying Earth much in the same way we study species here on Earth. Assuming the can travel the solar systems quickly Earth itself might well be hosting many alien "science studies" which we dont know about.

I wouldnt go as far as to say thats true but it certainly doesnt defy logic or reason and deserves to remain an openly considered possibility by my reckoning.

You also do have to seriously consider disclosure and motivation on Earth. The idea of Governments knowing more than they tell is very valid. Again, its not reasonable to discount the idea that the goverments who have far greater access to space based data know far more than they would be willing to divulge. At this point in human evolution any knew tech would be highly coveted for its military application that much is certain.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by silver6ix]

Do I detect a leaning against debunkers here? There is a problem with this, first we have the dictionary definition of bunk:

Google term, define: bunk

Result: unacceptable behavior (especially ludicrously false statements)

A debunker then is one who is against all ludicrously false statements.

Traditionally debunkers have provided a valuable public service by exposing frauds and scams against the elderly and sick. In general they are a force for good, there are different types of debunkers, there are those who catch and clarify mistakes, find the truth underlying a phenomenon, and there are those who very annoyingly proclaim everything a fraud without providing a trace of evidence to bolster their claims. It's probably not a good idea to mix them all together. We know who the marginal ones are, they are seen on the various UFO shows, dismissing major sightings with a wave of their all knowing hands. In the event of a bonafide Alien contact scenario, the debunkers will be forced to validate the voracity of the incident, no matter which type they are. In short, when we have "THE" event we are all hoping for, these annoying debunkers will be an asset.