GreatWall:

You must understand that most westerners are creatures of the law. We mostly believe that when we are within the limits of the established law, we can do what we please. It's the law that set these boundaries of right and wrong. We do not, as it is common in eastern societies, feel obligated to break the law if we lose face, feel wronged, or feel threatened. Those that do break the law for these reasons are called "vigilantes" and are usually treated no better than criminals. That being said.....

1) The US Navy aircraft was in international waters, which means it was only subject to International Law (and US Navy regulations).

2) The aircraft was specirfically collecting intelligence on Chinese naval activity in the area. It doesnt matter if the plane was one mile off Chinese coastal waters or orbiting Pearl Harbour: it has every right to detect, collect and analyze these signals under International Law.

3) If the Chinese government is so damn concerned about their electronic signals and communication, then USE ENCRYPTION. Its not our fault if the Chinese cant keep their sh@t in one sock.

4) The actions of the Chinese fighter pilot that died where at least negligent, and at most criminal. The west universally feels that he damn well got what he deserved. If he was so brave and talented and had a sweet family, then he should have exercised most caution in the vicinity of a lumbering, 4-engined patrol aircraft with limited maneuverability. Oh, and I guess Chinese ejection equipment and at-sea survival training aren't exactly up to snuff, eh?

5) The decision to land the P-3 in China by the Navy pilot is debatable. In the west, half feel he is a hero, half feel he should have taken his chances and maybe ditched the aircraft. History will have to decide this.

6) Although the US considers its military aircraft property and sovereign territory of the US, all is fair in love and war. I guarentee that the meoment the brass new about the P-3 on the ground in mainland China, they wrote it off as a loss and immediate set to work changing all the crypto. As was previously stated, we are guilty of this same "offense" with the Soviet MiG-25 in Japan.

Try not to tow the party line some much and be pragmatic about it. You did get a free look at some very nice ELINT and crypto gear, didn't you.

Anyways, the game will continue.........

Pyros

At first I should thank you for a long post to me. Actually, I agree that this post show a little fair and reasonable.
I originally argue with Mad Scientist about the topic of "stealling". After he give the evidence of "EP-3", the topic has totally changed into the topic of the accident of 'EP-3'.
Here, I do not want to talk too much, for I have to study. I agree that most international laws are created by Western Countries, and you should admitted that obviously most of the laws are benefits to the western developed countries, not to developing countries.
Suppose that the EP-3 were in the international waters, but this is a military aircraft, it went into Chinese territory and landed on Chinese airplane field without the permission from Chinese Goverment and Army!! I agree that this is a smart story. But according to international law, it is a kind of 'invasion' if any military aircraft ''goes into" another country's air space or land without permission!! That means EP-3 had already broken the Law! and invaded into Chinese territory! and We have the right to do anything to EP-3 in Chinese territory. Don't you agree?!
Anyway, I can give many evidences that the US government and Army do not care the international Laws. The invasion into Iraq, The Bombing of our Embassy(I am not sure if this words is correct) in Europe in late 90's, in early 90's landed our Ship (YingHe) in the indian Sea with such a excuse of Chemical Reagent in the ship.
.........
Anyway, your country and your army is too strong, you can do this as you like. but what the small countries can do is only the feeling of deep sorrow, great angry and maybe sometimes great hatred (Bin Laden).
Yes, the game will continue...


[Edited on 29-5-2003 by GreatWall]

[Edited on 29-5-2003 by GreatWall]

I've got no idea of the comparision between J12a and F16, gimmi some clues.

Originally posted by GreatWall
I agree that most international laws are created by Western Countries, and you should admitted that obviously most of the laws are benefits to the western developed countries, not to developing countries.
Suppose that the EP-3 were in the international waters, but this is a military aircraft, it went into Chinese territory and landed on Chinese airplane field without the permission from Chinese Goverment and Army!! I agree that this is a smart story. But according to international law, it is a kind of 'invasion' if any military aircraft ''goes into" another country's air space or land without permission!! That means EP-3 had already broken the Law! and invaded into Chinese territory! and We have the right to do anything to EP-3 in Chinese territory. Don't you agree?!

No, it was the piss poor flying of the Chinese pilot which damaged the EP-3 forcing it to land in Chinese terrirtory. So it has to be China's fault.

I do not care how the American view the collision of So-called EP-3 with Chinese figther, if I were that pilot, I will knock EP-3 down with not hesitation even if running a risk of my future.

Originally posted by SPCZHL
I do not care how the American view the collision of So-called EP-3 with Chinese figther, if I were that pilot, I will knock EP-3 down with not hesitation even if running a risk of my future.

Ummm, ok why ?

U.S. gonna set up several military bases in your conutry, feel proud of that?

You always say the EP-3 was forced to land in the territory of China by our pilot, and claim that it was the missing pilot's fault, for what capacity you make such a stupid conclusion, where do you pick the information of this collision?
If I were fooled by our government, what about you, never forget, American are good at tell the truth on tiny things, and not on big.
What do you say?

you people make me laugh,

NO PROBLEM MAN WE GOT TRAINING, WE GOT MISSILES.

what the f**k are you talking about, if US was to engage China in a military sense, they would lose, quite simply because they don't have the guts to lose thousands of soldiers, wheras China don't give a # if they lose lives.

Just because US has the latest technology doesn't mean it can defeat everything in it's path.

I don't think there will ever be full scale war between US and China, if there is it will be the end of the world as we know it.

You people over-emphasize the ability of the US military, you think you have good traing, well you don't, not any more, its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

don't mean to mock your optimism but we will wait and see.

I never mean to overblow the US military power, and it is not the nightmare to the rest of world, to some extent it plays an indispensable and prestigious role in international community, but changed after the war against Iraq. Seeking maximum profits will be its permenant guideline. I don't wanna talk too much on this matter. China, Russia and USA, none of them has the overwhelming and knock-down superiority over any others.
Anyway, I definitely know that US cannot afford the $$$$$ to control the world at will, impossoble!
For my part, to make sth clear is not only a yes-or-no or but right-or-wrong issue, MR. Mad Scientist. says it happened in international waters, if I were on his standing (or his knowledge), I agree in a way. But is Mr. Mad 's map same with mine? Don't tell me doggie OTH radar, an detecting system tells us where we are, but never has the right to tell us what we were.

Funny you mention the EP-3 is an ELINT and was overflying International Waters.

What was it doing? Gathering Electronic Intelligence about... whales?

Get serious man. Wherever the EP-3 was on, it was spying into China. Otherwise you are saying USA spends its budget spying the sexual life of the whales. Giving that spying is an act of war, the EP-3 *could* be shot down. It wasn't.

BTW: you should search about Echelon. Industrial spying. As it's not about military spying, it's fair. (Uh-oh, I forgot Defense Industry is industry as well, damnit )

EP3 incident was past tense for me. But what you are talking gives me a hint to see into neighbour's garden is legal, break into is illegal, I take it.
BTW, don't use the awful words like industrial spies, I don't appreciate any funny from it. What are those US-sending-out so-called journalists, oeverseas students or Weapon inspectors, are they spies? the land knows.

US funded Industrial Spying doesn't makes me laugh, much on the opposite.

What makes me (cinically) laugh is US double morals and over-proudness.

[Edited on 2003-6-14 by MakodFilu]

Double moral standards has made a fool of USA all the time. America has always tried its best to impose its so-called democracy upon other countries which not fit with american standard.
What a A|B character.

Please do say sth, I'm very interested in your suggestion.

Originally posted by MakodFilu
Funny you mention the EP-3 is an ELINT and was overflying International Waters.

What was it doing? Gathering Electronic Intelligence about... whales?

Get serious man. Wherever the EP-3 was on, it was spying into China. Otherwise you are saying USA spends its budget spying the sexual life of the whales. Giving that spying is an act of war, the EP-3 *could* be shot down. It wasn't.

BTW: you should search about Echelon. Industrial spying. As it's not about military spying, it's fair. (Uh-oh, I forgot Defense Industry is industry as well, damnit )

What's this BS ? Spying is an act of war ?
Do some more research before you post, that's a stupid statement. Spying has been a a part of all nations governments for hundreds of years and it has very rarely been construed as an act of war.

For your information it was perfectly legal for the EP-3 to be there; as was Soviet recon planes off the US coasts during the Cold War. As long as they are in international waters they can't be touched unless causing actual physical harm.

Originally posted by mad scientist...Spying has been a a part of all nations governments for hundreds of years and it has very rarely been construed as an act of war.

The key is *rarely*. It can be construed as an act of war, as I stated.

...they can't be touched unless causing actual physical harm.

...as when those go too near to an aircraft carrier or other *sensible* military objective... Watch your words: who feels stupid now?

Originally posted by MakodFilu
as when those go too near to an aircraft carrier or other *sensible* military objective... Watch your words: who feels stupid now?

What do you mean ? Are you trying to suggest something ?