To GreatWall && elitelongbow

Take it easy,it's just a Cyber world here we are,i'm not
bothered discussing issues which are involved in China and USA
in this channel however it's our responsibilities to keep
it in mind that when you are questioned you Don't have
to answer if you don't want to,for such info the Government is still
considering them to be classified.

And thanks to Administrators for handing us the chance
to come out what we think over here.

Originally posted by GreatWall
hi Guys:
I am a Chinese. I read all the posts here. I can see that many US guys want a war with China, and you are very confident that you will win.
Actually, I do not like war, but I am not afraid of war. Any way, if there was a war between China and US, are you sure you will win and What results you got means you win?
OK, just thought it right that US army can destroy all the nuclear missles at the same time (actually, it is impossible). If at last, we just give some nuclear bombs (the smallest one, not very heavy and one man can put it in his hand bag) to your enemy (just like Bin Laden). what and how could you deal with ?
Science made the killing easier, if you want to kill somebody else every day, I am sure you will be killed by the same way by other.

Originally posted by elitelongbow

some misconceptions

hi all
I am a chinese graduate student who is currently studying in uk
I am a military fan
I saw many misconceptions in your arguments about J-10
Of course, everyone knows that J-10 is only a 3-generation plane that can never compete with f22
but its appearance means that china for the first time in history has caught up with the world fighter making level
remember that 20 years ago we could not build even mig15
j-10 has many tech from various backgrounds
one important aspect is, country as advanced as japan can not build a single fighter without the engines from usa, but we can, since we are always independent of usa help.
considering the extremely expensive price(the GNP of china is only 1/8 of that of usa), we won't build it a large number
but ever since then, we can set out to research for a type of plane that is as good as f22
i think this painful process will take no less than 15 years
although 15 years later, we shall still be less advanced than usa
but we are catching up a bit more
what the world will look like if china can build a plane as good as that of usa's?
maybe after 40 years, the GNP of china will be comparable to usa's
and by that year, we shall mass produce our plane which is as good as usa's
this is where chinese military fans' hope lies

Hi guys.
This is great to have Chinese contributing to the forum too. We, the members of Above Top Secret are from all countries, like me, I'm from Australia. I speak for most of us here when I say that we don't want to make people uncomfortable. We are all friends here and we appreciate everybody's view.
Any way I realized that you Chinese guys are new, so welcome.
Sorry forgot to mention CHinawiLL, welcome.



[Edited on 26-5-2003 by barba007]

[Edited on 26-5-2003 by barba007]

Originally posted by CHinawiLL

Originally posted by barba007

Hello Blueye.
To my knowledge China do not have advanced landing craft in order to attempt an
invasion of Taiwan. I think if the Chinese us Paratroopers, they will not be too succesful.
They need alot of hardware, like tanks etc.
What are your thoughts?

Hi,007.I'm from Mainland of China I have to correct your certain things which have appeared in your posts:

1. There is NO such a law in mainland of China to avoid an entire family going abroad even if we know they
would never come back again in advance. I'm very sure.
We Don't have such laws ,both in mentally and in physically. My dear friend i wonder who ever told you that that
really scared me. If you ever got this idea from the Chinese students living in the states,in the meanwhile you are
sure they're the original messages from them we'd come to a conclusion that either
they are mad,or am i.

It rarely happens that an entire Chinese family move to USA (for example) and settle down but it did happen,
sometimes you see only the kids are studying/working in the USA and their parents/brothers/sisters are still living
in China,this doesn't mean Chinese government is getting involved

It'd rather be the reasons ...i.e,the Chinese students will come back to China after their graduation,for
them living in the states is odd at all,and some other reaons that you don't see all of Chinese family
have moved to USA all together.

About Chineses Tanks, first of all,if we really get in a war on the ground the opposite is USA,we wouldn't use
T-80 or it's variates to fight with US. M1A1/A2 since we already have A Beast which was born in China.

The New Chinese Type 98 - Configuration of the turret roof, from left, includes
the commander's independent sight,the Laser Warning Receiver,Wind Sensor,
and the Laser Self-Defense weapon.It's inducted several years ago.

What about getting these tanks to Taiwan? Is it possible with China's technology now?

I didn't think China were at that stage. Impressive. Though one more question. Will these ships survive Taiwanese missile strikes or being bombed the Taiwanese Air Force?

Actually, I am in USA. my whole famil want to come to visit us, and they can get their passports, but the problem is that, the US embassy do not give them visa!!!!!!!!! You US guys, do not only criticize our government, just look at your own government, just beat these small countries here and there, and have such a bad excuse for such as Freedom, Democracy. If you do want them to be "freedom". It is easy, just give them VISA, they will come to US, and they would be free!!!!! But you never did like that!!!!

To GreatWall:

That is true,the US. government has strict law from being flooded by the immigrants.
But there is a saying to get visa in the US. embassies around China with 70% luck
plus 30% capabilitis, mostly it depends on their mood

Originally posted by barba007

Consider 1 thing.
This has been playing on my mind for a long time.
How many Chinese people live in the US?
In Australia there are approx. 1.5 million in a population of 20 million.
Just say these Chinese were forced to commit acts of Terrorism in these adopted countries? Don't get me wrong I have many Chinese friends and is not a racial slur.
But many Chinese have Families in China. Just say Chinese officials in China hold these families until a crime was committed then released.
Many of my Chinese friends say that China allows families to travel overseas, though at least one member of the family must stay in China! Why is that?
Just something to think about.

Actually, I am in USA, and my family want to come to visit me. The have no problem to get their passports. the only problem is that you US embassy do not give them visa. This made me feel sick. You US guys, it is a very bad thing to think others always bad, and you always good. Look at your government, only can beat such small countries here and there. Use such bad excuse to liberate the people there. You really want to liberate them?? you really want to give them freedom? or you just want to control the oil there???!!!! and I feel shock that you lie like this. Actually, if you really want to give them freedom, that is easy, just give them visa, they can come to USA and they will be free, but I never saw you government did like this.


[Edited on 26-5-2003 by GreatWall]

The trouble with this point is that its OK if the numbers are quite small as in in the Gulf but the China problem is different as the size of the country deployment of assets and we just have to hope the f22 is as hard to spot as they say even on infra red."Its like trying to attack a man with an uzi with a stick". Guns jam and you only have to be lucky once with your stick?

Quote:

Originally posted by Reap:
-Mass against quality-

The trouble with this point is that its OK if the numbers are quite small as in in the Gulf but the China problem is different as the size of the country deployment of assets and we just have to hope the f22 is as hard to spot as they say even on infra red."Its like trying to attack a man with an uzi with a stick". Guns jam and you only have to be lucky once with your stick?

F-22 should be very superior to most of the
operational jet fighters in this world,but the
pentagon didn't say F-22 is unable to be shut
down,even by the sticks

meanwhile J-10 is far superior to the initial Su-27(note:1).
How about One F22 meets a flight of Three J-10s in an air battle?
This's acceptable for PLAAF i'd guess.If it's in
that way it comes 3 of F-22s are flying in the air
when 9 of J-10s are going to the spot
BTW, a stealth considered plane is in a way it's stealthy,but
not always working.The Stealthy design helps to reduce
the percentage to be detected,it's not that that it
is undetectable at all.

Note:1
The initial Su-27 is said to
have a disadvantageous position when having
the 'beyond-vision-range' combat with Western
fighter aircraft due to its inferior avionics
combat systems.

additional info:
One set of F-22 costs approx. 90 millions
One set of J-10 costs approx. 1x-2x millions
depending on which type of engine it equips,either the Russia made AL-31F turbofan or China made WS-10 turbofan.



[Edited on 27-5-2003 by CHinawiLL]

Originally posted by barba007
Listen guys, the point is not that the F-22 is beter than the J-10. We all know it is. The point is that if China start Mass Producing these J-10 like Bob88 said were in big s#@t!!!!!
I don't care how good of a pilot you are. If you have
10-1 ratio, your in trouble! any which way you look at it!
Also, I realy think China is capable of producing these Aircraft on a large scale.
They have to replace their large fleet of J-7 and other variants(eg. J-6,J-8,J-9 etc).
They have approx. 500 J-7(Don't quote me).
F-22 Raptors cost US $99.7 Million each to make. In comparison the JSF will cost approx. US $30 Million.

I posted this in an earlier post. I
re-adjust my argument.
You forget, CHinawiLL, that the Aircraft to replace the
F-14's, F-16's, F-18's are the JSF. In addition to the F-22.
I would assume that if both the JSF and the F-22 were in operation, which the almost are, they will be in small squadrons. For example 8 JSF and 2 F-22.
What would China put up against something like that?
The J-7, which is China's Equivilant of the U.S. F-14 when it comes to their main attack aircraft. In this equivilant the difference is much greater. China have, like I said above approx. 500 J-7's. These aircraft wouldn't have a chance.


[Edited on 27-5-2003 by barba007]

Originally posted by barba007

I am intrigued to know why you feel that Taiwan is part of China when they clearly do not want to be. Why stop them from being independent?
I would suggest that if China strikes Taiwan, The U.N., not only the U.S. this time will get involved, then those landing craft wouldn't be much use.

AGAIN I EXPRESS TO YOU THAT I AM NOT AMERICAN, I AM AUSTRALIAN AND PROUD. DO NOT REFER TO ME AS "YOU US GUYS" BEACAUSE I AM NOT. THANK YOU.

Hi,007,good to see you again.

First of all,you are very welcome,because i wasn't the one who came out as "You US guys", check the posts from dear GreatWall before SAYING THANKS TO ME

One of my personalities,i gotta drop in in here,that frequently i don't quite enjoy the compliments from others if i didn't do anything good to them.

Secondly,i'm convinced that Taiwan is part of China, according to some appearances go in the following:

1. Most of countries in the entire world have officially admited Taiwan is part of China.0bviously Australia is in this list,i just checked.

2. In any Olympic Games that Taiwan ever participated in
as being a Province of China,but not being an independent country.This's a big step for Taiwan not afraid of losing face to do something internationally.

3. Taiwan has never been a member of WHO,while some small countries are already, for example,the beautiful Ecuador.

4.In The US. official white book i'm rocking my junk in the pages ...there is a section read as THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DOESN'T ACCEPT AN INDEPENDENT TAIWAN,EVEN AN ACTION TO DECLARE
... ...

Why i added #4 in the posts ?Because nowadays USA is virtually the New Order to the rest of world,and i do respect USA,as long as i do respect the #4 part from USA.
Also, the #4 is dedicated to answer your question about "How will be the UN acting for the Taiwan issue"

The reason Taiwan isn't recognised by many countries is because the mainland always kicks up a stink. Western countries want to do business with China mainly due to the exteremely cheap labor. Therefore maney talks and bull# walks.

Chinese technology is still way behind the US in all respects - there is no dispute about that.
What everyone especially our Chinese friends seem to forget is that Chinese weapons aren't smart, therefore being orders of magnitude less effective than the US.

Most major Chinese military advances have been due to thievery of technology from western countries and not due to their own research.

Originally posted by CHinawiLL
To GreatWall:

That is true,the US. government has strict law from being flooded by the immigrants.
But there is a saying to get visa in the US. embassies around China with 70% luck
plus 30% capabilitis, mostly it depends on their mood

Actually, I am from the 70% who is with good luck, so........? I could not enjoy the "freedom", the "Liberty"???

Originally posted by mad scientist

Most major Chinese military advances have been due to thievery of technology from western countries and not due to their own research.

Give me evidence that Chinese military advance have been due to thievery of technology from western countries.
By the way, I can give a lot of evidence that what american Spies did in all other countries all over the world.
Anyway, every country has his spies, every country try to steal important materials from other country. That is true and that is normal. But for american, when he can not steal from others, he will use another way-military action--"ROB"

Originally posted by CHinawiLL
Quote:
additional info:
One set of F-22 costs approx. 90 millions
One set of J-10 costs approx. 1x-2x millions
depending on which type of engine it equips,either the Russia made AL-31F turbofan or China made WS-10 turbofan.



Who tell you that J-10 is only 1x-2x millions? Tell you the truth, J-10 is much more expensive than this amount, if use AL-31F, it is even more expensive than Su 27 which we got from Rusian.
That is why we bought so many Su27

[Edited on 27-5-2003 by GreatWall]

Originally posted by GreatWall

Give me evidence that Chinese military advance have been due to thievery of technology from western countries.
By the way, I can give a lot of evidence that what american Spies did in all other countries all over the world.
Anyway, every country has his spies, every country try to steal important materials from other country. That is true and that is normal. But for american, when he can not steal from others, he will use another way-military action--"ROB"

When that C-3 Orion was forcefully diverted by Chinese Fighters to land on a Chinese Island. Approximatly 1 year ago.

Originally posted by mad scientist

Most major Chinese military advances have been due to thievery of technology from western countries and not due to their own research.

Hi, there, howdy.

Are you really a scientist ? wow that's cool

1.The Chinese J-10 jet fighter is a joint product with Israelite suggestions in the beginning. Israel doesn't belong to Western Countries.(See note:1)

We haven't received a call "Thievery" from Israel by far.

2. The Chinese Missile-related Technologies,are also joint products with Russian helps. Also,China has been cooperating with Russia in many fields,such like Laser-related,mini-satellite-related,multi-track-retrorse-ground-based-related ... ...If you know there was/is a so called 7010 radar made in China,you'd probably understand what i'm talking about.
Russia doesn't belong to Western Countries(See note:1)

Russians has never mentioned "Thievery"

3. The Chinese made CPU named "Dragon-I" "Dragon-II", Chinese made them by ourselves.

4. The Chinese new Ddg warships, Chinese made them by ourselves,including the VSL installed on the ship,and the Chinese First made Aegis Command and Control System,working similarly as the USS AN/SPY-1A/D

... ...

Pardon me ? Why the heck i don't see any thread from those products which could be ripped off from Western Countries ?

note:1 <>


[Edited on 28-5-2003 by CHinawiLL]