China Release New Fighter. The J-10.

I think you underestimate the anti-air capabilities of the US battle groups, they were developed specifically to stop dozens, hundreds of extremely fast advanced Soviet Missiles, i think less advanced missiles will be easier to stop, not to mention, if China crosses the nuclear threshhold, the US has ALOT more nukes

Originally posted by KKing123
I think you underestimate the anti-air capabilities of the US battle groups, they were developed specifically to stop dozens, hundreds of extremely fast advanced Soviet Missiles, i think less advanced missiles will be easier to stop, not to mention, if China crosses the nuclear threshhold, the US has ALOT more nukes

you dont need ALOT nukes you only need 4, and i think china got em.

there is no such thing as a limited nuclear engagement, therefore, amount does matter, we have more, alot more

Its not goingt o matter, nuclear warfare is a threat only. Mutual destruction will foreclose any idea of that. What these world powers have been advancing thier research on is biological and chemical warfare. its common sence, what would you ather have a huge bomb that destroys everything in a thousand mile radius, or a weapon that can kill by the thousands with out breaking anything but its intended/uninteded victims. besides bio/chem agents can be vacinated, not exactly something we can do with a bomb.

If China were to go nuclear they would be at a severe disavantage in all nuclear weapons areas ( ie. number of weapons, delivery system accuracy etc. ), except mobile ICBM's.
To use nuclear weapons against the US would invite a devastating counterstrike, many times more powerful than the combined weight of the Chinese nuke arsenal.

originally posted by $tranger
and about the air-defence no body got something like the russian s-300/s-400, and some ships also got them.

Whilst they look good on paper, I'm not aware of the results of any tests of these systems. As the S-400 is meant to be ABM capable, the lack of testing casts serious doubts on it's ABM claims. As well as claims that it can detect stealth aircraft at a significant range.

Stealth is a thing of the past, its post cold war. now we have thermal imaging satalites that can see everything no matter what there movement rate is. Just because something has a low radar image, don't mean its stealth. Today stealth is going to include low heat signatures combined with visual invisability.

Originally posted by ADVISOR

Stealth is a thing of the past, its post cold war. now we have thermal imaging satalites that can see everything no matter what there movement rate is. Just because something has a low radar image, don't mean its stealth. Today stealth is going to include low heat signatures combined with visual invisability.

Infra-red signature has always been a consideration in design of stealth aircraft. I believe the F-117 and probably the B-2 mix cold air with the hot engine exhaust gasses before expelling them, considerably reducing the heat signature.
True optical invisiblity is still a long way off.

Ah, not the U.S. carrier invincible crap again, here is two articles on the Moskit. Read it before you talk:

Moskit
SS-N-22 Sunburn
Moskit is the aircraft variant of the naval missile 3M80 (SS-N-22 Sunburn, the designation 3M80 apparently referring to the Mach 3 speed of 1980 weapons) used on "Sovremennyy" destroyers (eight missiles on each) and on "Tarantul [Tarantula] III patrol ships (four missiles on each). The 3M82 "Mosquito" missiles have the fastest flying speed among all antiship missiles in today's world. It reaches Mach 3 at a high altitude and its maximum low-altitude speed is M2.2, triple the speed of the American Harpoon. When slower missiles, like the French Exocet are used, the maximum theoretical response time for the defending ship is 150-120 seconds. This provides time to launch countermeasures and employ jamming before deploying "hard" defense tactics such as launching missiles and using quick-firing artillery. But the 3M82 "Mosquito" missiles are extremely fast and give the defending side a maximum theoretical response time of merely 25-30 seconds, rendering it extremely difficult employ jamming and countermeasures, let alone fire missiles and quick-firing artillery.
The aircraft version, officially called ASM-MMS and apparently also Kh-4, is intended specially for Su-27K (Su-33) carrier-based fighter aircraft. It was for the first time shown to the CIS leaders in February 1992 in Machulishche and then to the public in August 1992 at the Moscow Air Show in Zhukovskiy.


The missile is propelled by a dual (rocket-jet) engine operating by the same principle as the Kh-31 engine. The missile, suspended under the aircraft, has a folding wing. The missile is guided by an autopilot during the initial fight stage, with possible correction by the aircraft pilot, and by active radar during the final flight stage.




CHINA BUYS NEW RUSSIAN DESTROYERS
By Richard D. Fisher, Jr.


China's People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) signed the new year in with a January 3 contract for two Russian Project 956EM Sovremenny class destroyers to be delivered by 2006. The purchase highlights the continued growth in the PLA's combat potential, a gathering capability to put military pressure on Taiwan and the continued troubles the PLA faces in producing its own advanced warships.

Monitoring the growth of the PLAN for the political and military options it gives Beijing is important. Increasingly apparent: The "center" of the PLA's counter-Taiwan strategy will be its space-missile-air power combine. This might include support from Airborne troops, which can decide a conflict in a short period. The PLA Navy, and especially its growing submarine forces, would be critical in a combined forces effort to stop the U.S. Navy from helping Taiwan. But if Beijing were to try subduing Taiwan by a naval blockade, then ships like the Sovremenny would assume greater importance.

LATTER DAY BISMARCKS

The PLAN's 1996 purchase of its first two Russian Type 956E Sovremenny class destroyers generated a media sensation reminiscent of the final voyage of the German battleship Bismarck. While not as important as the new attack submarines, the two Sovremenny's carry the PLAN's most effective antiship and anti-aircraft missiles as well as its most effective antisubmarine helicopter. Concern about these ships in both Taipei and Washington is justified by the fact that Taiwan and perhaps even the U.S. Navy lacks an effective defense against the ship's SS-N-22 Sunburn (3M-80E Moskit) supersonic antiship missile. Both PLAN Sovremennys are now assigned to the PLAN's East Sea Fleet which faces Taiwan and Japan.

HANGZHOU AND FUZHOU

The PLA's first two Project 956E destroyers--the Hangzhou and the Fuzhou--were ordered in 1996 and delivered quickly (because the Russians had two incomplete hulls to build on). As such, the PLAN received two "stock" Sovremennys. Displacing about 8,000 tons, the Project 956E is designed for distant antiship missions. Its main armament are eight of the 160km range SS-N-22 Sunburn antiship missiles. This missile travels at about three times the speed of sound and can perform violent maneuvers that can defeat most defenses designed to ward off subsonic antiship missiles. It also carries the 25km range SA-N-7 anti-aircraft missile and one Ka-28 antisubmarine helicopter. The Ka-28 carries rocket-propelled antisubmarine torpedoes and can provide over-the-horizon targeting for the SS-N-22 missile. Anti-aircraft and antisubmarine warfare, however, are secondary missions for the Sovremenny.

These warships were conceived in the late 1970s to support a strategy designed to secure areas contiguous to the Soviet Union, or "bastions," for the deployment of nuclear ballistic missile submarines (SSBN). For the Soviet Navy, attack submarines and land-based attack aircraft were more important than surface warships. The Sovremennys were intended to operate with dedicated long-range antisubmarine ships, nuclear attack submarines, and land-based bombers like the Tupolev Tu-22M3 Backfire, to repel U.S. carrier battle groups that might try to invade Soviet SSBN bastions to intercept these submarines.

For this mission the Sovremenny needed to survive long enough only to launch its missiles at the enemy. These ships were thus not designed withstand great battle damage and would likely be hard-pressed to undertake long missions. They also pre-date current ships design trends dominated by radar-avoiding stealth shaping. Furthermore, they were designed with a First-Strike strategy in mind: use missiles or lose them. And, to ensure their success, the early Russian SS-N-22 missiles were fitted with nuclear warheads.

THE NEW SOVREMENNYS

According to early January reports out of Russia, the latest Chinese Sovremenny contract is for a new ship, the Project 956EM, which are expected to incorporate recent Russian advances in warship design and weapons. These may use stealth shaping similar to the Project 17 frigates that Russia is building for India. The 956EM are also expected to be armed with a new smaller cruise missile, such as the Mach 3 speed and 300km range NPO Machinostroyenia Yakhont, or the subsonic speed 220km range Novator Club-N. At least one report indicates that the 956EM could carry up to twelve Yakhonts, marketed as having a land-attack capability as well.

Russian reports also indicate that the 956EM could carry a new longer-range anti-aircraft missile. It has been Russian practice to equip its ships with naval versions of land-based anti-aircraft missiles like the 120km range S-300PMU or the 25km range BUK-M1. But the PLAN could opt for the latest versions of these missiles--the 250 mile range S-400, for example. These missiles would also be guided by more advanced phased array radar that are more difficult to detect and jam.

In contrast to the older design, the new 956EM would offer the prospect for longer survivability in combat, by virtue of its greater ability to avoid detection, launch attacks from greater ranges and defeat attacking aircraft at farther distances. Russia could also address other deficiencies of the original Sovremenny design, such as its low ability to survive combat damage. And while this projection is suspect, Russian reports indicate that the new ships may be ready in 2006 or soon after, perhaps in time to be used against Taiwan.

TAIWAN OPERATIONS

The 1996 PLAN purchase of the Sovremennys was driven by the need to respond to the humiliation of not being able to counter the two U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle groups sent to counter to the PLA's intimidating exercises near Taiwan in March that year. This incident focused PLA attention on the need to defeat the U.S. Navy. If it could be prevented long enough from "rescuing" Taiwan, then other elements of the PLA's forces would have sufficient time to force a military solution to Beijing's quest for "unification."

To counter U.S. carrier battle groups, the Sovremennys will be coordinated with land-based ballistic missiles, Su-30MKK and JH-7 fighter bombers, new diesel-electric submarines like the Russian Kilo and the Chinese Song classes, and future new nuclear powered attack submarines. Aircraft and submarines will be armed with new long-range antiship cruise missiles. And very soon, both platforms and missile strikes will be coordinated by new reconnaissance satellites and both unmanned reconnaissance and AWACS aircraft, and guided by planned navigation satellites.

In such a battle it is likely that the Sovremennys would be used following strikes by land-based missiles, aircraft and submarines. The new 956EMs, however, might be better able to join this battle sooner, provided they survive expected U.S. defensive measures. While a multiple of U.S. carrier battle groups would be able to defend themselves against such PLA attacks, it is less likely that Taiwan's Navy could do so.

For general operations against Taiwan, the PLA's goal would be to first strike Taiwan's Navy in its ports with missiles, aircraft and Special Forces units. Surviving warships would then face a superior number of PLAN submarines, strike aircraft, combat ships and numerous naval mines. The Sovremennys, with their 130mm naval guns, could either provide fire support for amphibious invasion forces or the leading edge of a blockade operation.

CHINA'S AMBITIONS

The PLA's decision to return to Russia for its advanced warships also highlights the slow pace of the PLA's ability to build modern warships. Its latest Luhai class destroyer is a barely modern design and it relies on Ukrainian turbine engines. The PLAN is reportedly working on a new class of destroyer that will be built in two versions that emphasize anti-aircraft and antisubmarine capabilities. Together with the Sovremennys, these can be expected to form the combat support for the PLAN's first large aircraft carrier, which may be built in the next decade. But until the first carrier that allows for distant operations is built, the PLAN will continue to build its surface, submarine and air forces for naval operations near Taiwan or in the South China Sea. But armed with land-attack capable missiles like the Yakhont, the PLA will be able to use its Sovremennys for distant political intimidation missions. Another mission of growing importance will be to defend new PLAN ballistic missile submarines, which could require a secure "bastion" in the Yellow Sea.

For Taipei and Washington, the PLA's acquisition of even more capable models of the Russian Sovremenny serves to validate recent decisions, and to prompt additional measures to sustain Taiwan's ability to deter PLA attack. The new PLA purchases validate the Bush administration's decision last year to sell Taiwan the U.S. Kidd class destroyers and eight new conventional submarines. There is an even greater requirement for the submarines to counter the PLAN's new Sovremennys. Taiwan also requires the greater air defense and antisubmarine capabilities of the Kidd class destroyers, and as well the U.S. Aegis class destroyers, which have an even greater anti-aircraft and a potential antimissile capability.

The PLAN's new purchase also validates the September 2001 Quadrennial Review decision to increase the number of U.S. aircraft carriers in the "Western Pacific." The current single U.S. carrier battle group stationed in Japan will soon not be enough to deter the PLA. Washington also needs to develop longer-range tactical missiles to defeat the PLA's longer-range naval and land-based Russian anti-aircraft missiles. Finally, to sustain deterrence on the Taiwan Strait, Washington. should seriously consider selling Taiwan these long-range attack missiles so it can better deter the PLA's gathering missile, air and naval forces.

Richard D. Fisher, Jr. is a senior fellow with the Jamestown Foundation and the managing editor of China Brief.

There is also, the Yakhont. It is more advanced than the Moskit so u can imagine how it will smoke a U.S. carrier fleet.

theres also the new alpha cruise missile and the KH-101 with a range of 5000km.

CO-ORDINATION is the key my friend.
If you do not have co-ordination, the technology is useless.

Didn't we go through this in a previous post?.

Let me reitterate:
- faster doesn't mean better, especially when reliability of the guidance control module is suspect.
- the US fleet is the best trained in the world and countermeasure tactics are in place to combat both threats.


As I said before, the countermeasure tactics needed to defeat these missiles are difficult to execute, but not impossible. (I know, I have studied them)

When you get you're facts straight, come on back and post.

[Edited on 14-5-2003 by SeaBass]

The question may become what do you do when you send Staffel strengh against Geschwader strengh which will probably be the situation that will occur in China. The USA has a few very good aircraft manned by Experten to combat a lot so-so aircraft manned by so-so pilots. This scenario sounds vaguely familar. Never be quick to underestimate the strengh and abilities of a potential enemy.

When expert pilots on very good air platforms train AGAINST each other for countless hours, they become no match for so-so pilots in so-so air platforms. Period. It has been proved time and time again.

Things can and do happen, though

Originally posted by $tranger
theres also the new alpha cruise missile and the KH-101 with a range of 5000km.

So what big deal, the Kh-101 can only fly subsonically at about Mach 0.8. It would take a hell of a long time to reach it's maximum range, allowing ample opportunity to be shot down.
The US could achieve this with their Tomahawks, just by elongating the missile body and adding more fuel. The 109 would also be much more accurate due to GPS.

Please refer to SinoDefence.com for more detailed information regarding J-10.

hey you guyz
i am from the P.R.China,
i found you guyz got a lot misconcept about my country

Originally posted by barba007

Hello Blueye.
To my knowledge China do not have advanced landing craft in order to attempt an
invasion of Taiwan. I think if the Chinese us Paratroopers, they will not be too succesful.
They need alot of hardware, like tanks etc.
What are your thoughts?

Hi,007.I'm from Mainland of China I have to correct your certain things which have appeared in your posts:

1. There is NO such a law in mainland of China to avoid an entire family going abroad even if we know they
would never come back again in advance. I'm very sure.
We Don't have such laws ,both in mentally and in physically. My dear friend i wonder who ever told you that that
really scared me. If you ever got this idea from the Chinese students living in the states,in the meanwhile you are
sure they're the original messages from them we'd come to a conclusion that either
they are mad,or am i.

It rarely happens that an entire Chinese family move to USA (for example) and settle down but it did happen,
sometimes you see only the kids are studying/working in the USA and their parents/brothers/sisters are still living
in China,this doesn't mean Chinese government is getting involved

It'd rather be the reasons ...i.e,the Chinese students will come back to China after their graduation,for
them living in the states is odd at all,and some other reaons that you don't see all of Chinese family
have moved to USA all together.

About Chineses Tanks, first of all,if we really get in a war on the ground the opposite is USA,we wouldn't use
T-80 or it's variates to fight with US. M1A1/A2 since we already have A Beast which was born in China.

The New Chinese Type 98 - Configuration of the turret roof, from left, includes
the commander's independent sight,the Laser Warning Receiver,Wind Sensor,
and the Laser Self-Defense weapon.It's inducted several years ago.


A beast from east is standing in the cold weather


He sometimes likes to get some ray also


He got nothing to do so he is just roaming around


A twin is still hogging on the tits


Yeah,J-10 is inducted in the PLAAF


She is a beauty,no ?


What a sexy butt she's got


In memory of this prototype of J-10


Hmmm nice taking off beware of the angle on the engine part...vector- .. ?


The indigenous helmet-mounted sight (HMS) for J-10


Alternatively, some indigenous equipments for J-10, who knows


That's all for today my friend,i personally wouldn't be
encouraging us to oppose to each other,we could be
good partners why not give it a try . Here us aka China
and USA

A taking off or a landing attempt ? None cuz it's obvious just a frozen picture at all

hi all
I am a chinese graduate student who is currently studying in uk
I am a military fan
I saw many misconceptions in your arguments about J-10
Of course, everyone knows that J-10 is only a 3-generation plane that can never compete with f22
but its appearance means that china for the first time in history has caught up with the world fighter making level
remember that 20 years ago we could not build even mig15
j-10 has many tech from various backgrounds
one important aspect is, country as advanced as japan can not build a single fighter without the engines from usa, but we can, since we are always independent of usa help.
considering the extremely expensive price(the GNP of china is only 1/8 of that of usa), we won't build it a large number
but ever since then, we can set out to research for a type of plane that is as good as f22
i think this painful process will take no less than 15 years
although 15 years later, we shall still be less advanced than usa
but we are catching up a bit more
what the world will look like if china can build a plane as good as that of usa's?
maybe after 40 years, the GNP of china will be comparable to usa's
and by that year, we shall mass produce our plane which is as good as usa's
this is where chinese military fans' hope lies

hi Guys:
I am a Chinese. I read all the posts here. I can see that many US guys want a war with China, and you are very confident that you will win.
Actually, I do not like war, but I am not afraid of war. Any way, if there was a war between China and US, are you sure you will win and What results you got means you win?
OK, just thought it right that US army can destroy all the nuclear missles at the same time (actually, it is impossible). If at last, we just give some nuclear bombs (the smallest one, not very heavy and one man can put it in his hand bag) to your enemy (just like Bin Laden). what and how could you deal with ?
Science made the killing easier, if you want to kill somebody else every day, I am sure you will be killed by the same way by other.